NewOregonDad

my "Peggy" and "Bobby" are unschoolers. this was a radical shift for me to understand, and there are still components of it that annoy and confuse me. however, the greater good is seen every day in Bobby. the freedom to learn as he will, when he will. there isn't a day that goes by that he's not learning something, as the joy of learning hasn't been beaten out of him by a well-meaning, yet (my opinion, don't flame me) obsolete institution.

I'm learning from both of them daily. In our little community, a phrase often used goes something like: "birds fly. fish swim. humans learn." i can see, after a radical paridigm shift, that Bobby will be a lifelong student, following his interests and zoning in on them. He asks questions. we research answers together. at nine, he wants to know about C++ coding for PC gaming. alternately, at nine, he wants to eat an entire box of popsicles. so it's a wash. he's a nine year old kid.

i've learned to lighten up and not be so tense about his behaviour. he's learning independance, albiet at a rate that would have him instantly banished to the school's counselor, should we subject him to such a thing. which we don't.

I also worked in grade schools back in the midwest. day after day, the main tenant that i saw was control first. learning later. and i saw a lot of sad, quiet kids, behaving, and having the childhood wrung out of them on a daily basis. and i saw a lot of angry, impatient teachers, being pressured by angry, impatient administrators. and i saw a lot of senior college student teachers, having the career of their dreams shattered in front of their eyes by a modern classroom environment. of the two evils, i'll choose keeping my kid out of the cesspool of irritation and anguish that shoving forty kids into a small room, made to act and learn robotically so efficiently provides.

another saying, common to those i spend time with, is that unschooling isn't for everyone. but it works for us.

update on the cosleeping: Bobby's been switching his sleeping habits, and although he's not keen on being without his mother for a second longer than is scheduled, i can see his individualism gradually coming around. the other night i was surprised to hear him open up a bit on his sister's illness and death, saying that it was being away from her for two months (staying with friends out of state) while Sister bravely fought A.L.L. back home. which increases his fear of being without her ("i don't like my mom being somewhere that i can't go. i'm not okay with it."). and i understood. if he's wanting to be with his mother all the time, until he's trusting that she isn't going to leave or collapse from cancer or whatever, i can understand. i just hope he doesn't drive his mom mental because of his needs. it's something we can all work on together. and we will.

today, instead of school, we went to the ocean. and saw the life in the tidepools. and tasted the water. and discussed tidal physics. and velocity over time mathematics (i.e:how long until we get there?). and local economics, based on the local lumber and fish industries. and then we had some ice cream. today's little excursion through the coastal range and to the ocean was better than any day i've ever spent in school. and i went through K-12, and six years of college.

jtee

NewOregonDad, Those are great comments. Thx!

jtee

Amy, Go ahead and post a link to your blog.

SpitNCobra13

I like your philosophy! This is the environment I want for my kids someday, when I have kids.

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AmyL

PennQuaker, we're going to have to disagree on a few things because they're opinions/beliefs.

As for teaching from a Biblical perspective, here are a couple of facts for you. Most of the early pioneering scientists on this planet - and I'm talking major names but my mush brain isn't certain enough to list them right now - were believers and were able to reconcile the scientific inquiry with the religion just fine. Second, have you ever closely examined teachings done from a Biblical perspective, or just accepted the statements of others that there is disagreement? 'Cause honestly, there's a ton of agreement and it's really neat to study things from that perspective. I guess what I'm saying is that it's possible to have a realistic and balanced understanding of science while at the same time being a believer.

As for evolution being accepted as mainstream I'm afraid you're behind the times on that one. Actually evolution is losing ground to a theory called Intelligent Design, and fast. If you want me to look up references to support this claim, say the word. It'll take me a bit of time but I'm happy to do it. And we'd probably have to start a new thread. Two interesting books on the subject are Icons of Evolution and Tornado in a Junkyard. If you only read one, read Icons. I was stunned by a lot of it, and it's very scientific.

As for the high school homeschooling, here's where we get into opinions. So please don't feel like I'm attacking. Just disagreeing. Lots of parents sell themselves short on the high school teaching. It's not actually all that difficult, as most programs have teacher's guides. That's what certified teachers use; why not parents? If a home schooler feels like a subject is over his/her head there are tutors, online schools, private academies, college courses, co-ops, forums, support groups, and more available. In fact, home schooling is now moving into the college ages. I don't personally plan to let them stay at home for that... I think they need to get out in the world. But it is a reality and growing.

I think you're right about science and math needing more work in the US. Part of my reason for keeping them home - one of the biggest is curriculum. May I add to your concerns the following? Reading Instruction (i.e. the Whole Language Approach) is a huge mess, and there are studies showing that currently popular teaching methods are causing part of the explosion of learning disabilities in the US.

A comparison of Montessori's methods and what the US went with (more of the John Dewey line of thought) is very interesting. I personally think that test scores would be more like Europe's if we'd gone with Montessori, who influenced European early childhood education in a huge way. My other peeve: going to social studies instead of teaching straight history. The program I am following teaches history <gasp> in order. It's revolutionary, and I'm not being sarcastic here. I minored in history in college, and have learned so much in just doing the survey of world history over the past 4 years that I'm constantly amazed. Looking at history in order allows me to make connections between events and gain understanding. Yet schools break it up into nonsensical order, and insist on looking at groups in isolation which fractures understanding.

In an age where a middle school is offering the Pill on campus to girls as young as 11, I don't think a blanket statement like "schools do not teach students that being gay is okay" is a safe one. I can guarantee you that the opposite is true in some places. Again, if you want me to pull references on that, I can.

Also, tolerance is an interesting concept to consider. I'm not slamming any group here, so please don't take offense before you ponder this one. Liberal groups tend to accuse Christians (n particular) of being intolerant. The sad irony is they make this accusation while at the same time not tolerating the Christian's beliefs.

In a more concrete-yet silly- example, if I believe that eating red frosting is wrong then someone could come along and say "That's ridiculous. Why can't you just tolerate the frosting? What's wrong with you? Frosting is tasty and good, and red is a pretty color. Sheesh. How awful are you?? Not believing in eating red frosting." But, has that person stopped to ask WHY I don't believe in eating red frosting? Have they extended themselves in any way to find out my point of view, or tried even one iota to see things my way? Nope. I'm just branded intolerant for my beliefs, which are then belittled and ridiculed. On a national scale.

I'm NOT saying that all liberals are wrong and all Christians are right. Far from it. Just pointing out some things for to ponder in life. As a former public school teacher, I have discovered that my training (up through the Master's Degree level) wasn't as comprehensive in the reality department as I otherwise would have liked.

AmyL

NewOregonDad, that's just fantastic! And at the same time I'm so sorry to learn of your loss, and I sincerely hope that your boy continues to learn and heal together with you and your wife. Your story is why I said unschooling does work in some places, and I'm thrilled that you shared. Your son has very special parents, and kudos especially to your wife for being so patient with him.

AmyL

Okay, here's the link to the first post in the series. If you like it and want to read the others, they're in the How To category on my home page.

http://www.earnestparenting.com/2007...ooling-part-1/

PennQuaker09

I think some of what I said didn't really come out right. Personally, I don't say that I'm a Christian, I think I have a lot of very Christian beliefs and ideals, but I don't want to offend those who don't feel as though I am. I always separate my religion from my opinions - unless I think it is appropriate for religion to be included. So that is just my disclaimer.

One thing I'm perfectly okay with is the teaching of the Bible as literature. Because that is one of the functions of the Bible. So, the Bible does have a place in the English classroom.

In history, I think it becomes much trickier. I think we are taught to believe certain things in "history" classes. We're never told about the negative aspects of Christianity in history. Because believe me, there are.

I'm pretty comfortable with my knowledge of science, but as an open minded person, I would love for you to provide that information. I think I'm going to get my certification to teach biology, but I will probably refuse to teach it unless I'm teaching advanced students. Mainly because most high school biology classes are like water, and secondly with advanced students you get to present the material with the expectation that they're going to college and want to learn about science in depth.

Scientifically, Intelligent Design cannot be quantified. If something cannot be quantified, it is not science. It's blatantly unconstitutional and the U.S. National Academy of Science, the general body of the scientific community, does not view it as science. The Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case supports what I'm saying. It's creationism under the guise of science. Evolution is not considered mainstream, but it is the law (in a manner of speaking) in the scientific community. The public will never accept it, but as I said, American's don't embrace science. Very few individuals have studied science in any depth and these are the people who disagree with evolution. If one doesn't know science, then I feel they have no place of saying what should be taught in science classes. I understand that there are beliefs that people have, but evolution isn't a belief. There is cold hard evidence that makes it factual. So, I know that as a people, we have evolved, but I believe that God is the One that makes my personal evolution possible. For me it's just faith, it may not be easy for everyone to understand, but I don't think one can live without faith in something.

What makes me dislike homeschooling for high schoolers is that the majority of the teenagers that are homeschooled, have parents with only a high school education. Homeschoolers are more likely to be conservative, white, and Christian. And I think in most cases this is why people choose to homeschool. I'm not saying its wrong, but I think it sort of amounts to telling your children that they shouldn't associate themselves with certain groups. It creates a new generation of homophobes and racists and anti-semites. I'm not saying you are any of those things, but I have to be honest and say that a lot of people are. A lot of people pass off morals and beliefs that have kept this country in a state where we don't want to change and to not think for ourselves. Case in point, homosexuality. I'll get back to my point, but this is a great place to interject.

I understand that people have moral objections to my being gay. But morality is so freaking relative. I think a lot of people interpret the Bible to better suit themselves. Christianity is very divisive, and one of the reasons why I have such an issue with religion is because I feel like instead of bringing people together, it does the complete opposite. And you're right, liberals are intolerant when it comes to the religious right. American's are an extremely judgmental and selfish group, unlike any other population in the western world. It's been really hard for me personally, because I used to love church, with all my being, but when you're 14 and you hear some pompous ass preaching about how you're destined for hell, your perspective changes. We all have sinned and fallen short of the glory, but because I love in a different way, I'm immoral? No, I refuse to accept that. And I'm not even going to comment on the traditional family values thing. It's one of those things I truly don't understand. I had a traditional family, they got divorced.

Back to the homeschooled high schooling. I think discussion a large part of a great high school education. And I think students should be subjected to a variety of opinions and people. Students self segregate so much these days and it's really disheartening. People usually think I'm Caucasian, but I'm actually half African American. I didn't really make African American friends until I got to college. I only had one during my entire four years of high school.

Switching gears and back to the more social aspects of schools these days. I have to say that I don't agree with giving 11 year olds contraception. That should never have been allowed it happen. But I have to say, if schools taught tolerance, all kinds of tolerance, we wouldn't have school shootings and kids wouldn't get bullied for simply being different. I personally didn't have a hard time in high school with the bullying. I was rather popular, but it was all very superficial. Having a doctor for a dad gets you a free pass I suppose.

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AmyL

Okay, holy cow this is getting long. But fun. I'm enjoying it immensely. I do think we should split off the evolution stuff into a new thread, since we're leaving homeschooling far far behind there. And it's late at night, so I'll be brief.

1. Christianity in history: agreed that many terrible things have been in the name of MANY religions. Cases in point: Spanish Inquisition, the belief that skin color determines superiority, kings speaking for God, and the current quest to re-establish the Caliphate (granted, that's not Christian. Just expanding to include another religion here). I do tell my boys directly when people have made wrong choices and done terrible things in the name of furthering one religion or another. I can't change the rest of the problems in this area, but I'm doing my part.

2. I'll dig up the references on ID and evolution losing ground. But new thread. It may be this weekend before I get to it, as schedule is hectic until then. But I promise to do it.

3. Best of luck in getting to choose what classes you teach when you get into the field. It's not always a choice the teacher gets to make.

4. Scientifically, ID, evolution, and creation can not be quantified one any more than another. They each require a measure of faith from their adherents. Actually heard a fantastic sermon on that once. Unfortunately, I don't have the tape.

5. I'm curious (and you can answer this in the other thread) about your use of the term unconstitutional with regard to the teaching of ID in science. If you're referring to the separation of church and state, I hope you realize there is no such designation in the US Constitution. Rather, the notion arose from a letter Jefferson wrote to the Baptists in Danbury CT. The original plan was for each state to be allowed to decide (and even dictate) religion and government issues. The first amendment prohibits only the federal gov't from BOTH establishing a religion and infringing on the practice of a religion. It's actually unconstitutional to stop people from exercising their religious beliefs freely. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". (Emphasis mine). I think it was VA that had its own state religion at one point. Will have to look that up.

6. As for evolution being widely accepted, again I don't see that. I"ll dig up those articles when I can.

7. A big problem at the university level is the fact that teacher trainees are told that only other folks with that training can teach. It's just not true. Whether or not a person holds a degree does not determine their teaching ability. If I had a nickel for all the arrogant things that came out of my mouth (or went through my head) during my teaching tenure, I'd be rich.

8. You're kind of ascribing to the diversity notion when you say that being in schools and exposed to other groups improves the educational experience. This has also been proved wrong in some compelling studies. And there are logical flaws with some of the diversity argument. 'Nother thread.

9. Christianity is divisive when not taught in love, and/or when the truths being taught expose our sin. Which no one likes to consider. I know I sure hate when any of my flaws/failings/foibles are examined or judged. In the case of the guy saying you're destined for hell, I'd have to say that so am I. But I'm forgiven, so I get to go to Heaven instead. And that forgiveness is available to everyone who asks for it. I am no better than any other individual on this planet, and I deserve none of the blessings I have been given. I'm sorry that you were so hurt. That's not what it's supposed to be about.

10. I would be cautious about saying how bad Americans are. It's very popular in educational/elite circles to criticize this country; unfortunately we run into a lot of hypocrisy and flat out inconsistency in that criticism. We have our faults, but close examination proves that the rest of the people on the planet are human too, and make just as many mistakes. On top of that, it is fascinating to look back over time and see all the wars upon wars upon wars, and then this quirky little experiment in representative democracy comes along and works. Eh. 'Nother thread again, lol.

11. Ooooh, school shootings. Interesting stuff coming out about the link between children being put on antidepressants and becoming homicidal and/or suicidal. Actually, very frightening stuff.

Okay, I said I'd be brief. Scary how long this got anyways. I'll do my research and get back. Look for a new thread soon. Toodles.

jenilouise

I do happen to be Christian, partially white (I am also a member of the Penobscot tribe), and a conservative leaning non partisan (meaning the side of the fence I lean towards more often is the right side but I lean tothe left on many issues as well.) None of these factored into my decision to homeschool. I made that decision because I felt the school was purposefully trying to give my child a substandard education. No i am not paranoid and sometime I will get into the specifics but my daughter is thriving at homewith my-all three of them are.

I teach my children the Bible seperately from their regular studies. I also offer them the chance to peruse books from other faiths. Yes Christianity is the path I have chosen but it doesn't have to be their path. If it is- wonderful- if not - wonderful. I love them all the same.

I also teach them not to judge anyone for any reason. Their baby sister is biracial. Racism is not allowed in my home and neither is homophobia or any form of prejuidice. I am a sinner just as much as anyone but I have asked Jesus to forgive me.

I do plan to homeschool them through high school but we do have an online school that we go through. If there is a subject I am wary on I have a teacher to help me. It does bother me that people judge homeschoolers and think we are all religious freaks or something.

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