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Old 08-23-2013, 09:48 PM   #21
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

Quote:
Originally Posted by parentastic View Post
Oh great. Another time-out guru.
I am appalled to see it is still advised, despite the profound attachment issues that it causes on the long run.

A simple article here from Dr. Laura Markham about timeout, What's wrong with time-out.



Please don't.
If you actually read this article, you will find that it is an opinion and not research based. Instead of attacking me, why don't you post something that you believe will help this mother with her child? Isn't that the purpose of these forums??
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

Quote:
Originally Posted by parentastic View Post
Oh great. Another time-out guru.
I am appalled to see it is still advised, despite the profound attachment issues that it causes on the long run.

A simple article here from Dr. Laura Markham about timeout, What's wrong with time-out.



Please don't.
Instead of posting links to articles that discuss opinions which are virtually worthless, try reading an actual study on the efficiacy of timeouts: http://www.parentdish.com/2011/02/02...ctually-works/. This is one study out of a mountain of other studies that proves the efficacy of timeouts.
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:46 PM   #23
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

Mark, I am fully aware of research, as I am a researcher myself. And I am part of the professional field as a family life educator, so I know what I am talking about.

Yes, yes, you can indeed find dozens of studies that promotes the use of time-outs. And yes, totally, they are WAY better than the use of corporal punishments.

Attention, for a child, is a deeply rooted fundamental need. If it is used as a way to manipulate the child's behavior (you call it conditioning) it is also teaching conditional acceptance. And it erodes the attachment between child and parent, shifting it toward an insecure / avoidant attachment pattern. (See the work of Siegel, based on Bowlby and Aisenworth).

The reason it's not yet fully integrated in every possible science paper you find is that behaviorism is firmly implanted (has been for over 50 years, as the oldest branch of psychology). It took behaviorism what - 40 years? to finally agree that corporal punishment is dangerous and that alternatives are required. Meanwhile, attachment theories are comming back in full force in recent studies because the use of neuro-imagery has confirmed what Bowlby et al suspected all these years.

The question "Is timeout effective" is a tricky question, because it assumes we know effective for what?
If by that you mean that timeout is effective at changing a behavior or extinguishing it in a child, then yes. I totally agree - it's VERY effective. It's probably the MOST effective thing you can do, short of using physical punishment, to change a behavior. If someone would threaten to remove your oxygen, you bet you would change your behavior too. But all that assumes that the goal is to change a behavior.

A child is NOT simple a bunch of behaviors.
Behind every behavior there is a root cause. Using timeout to stop a behavior is akin to forcing the emotions and causes to be bottled up and fester inside - while the real issue is still present.

Here is a cover story from one of the professional journal where this issue was addressed, not quantitatively, but qualitatively:

Time out' to correct misbehavior may aggravate it instead. By: Haiman, Peter Ernest, Brown University Child & Adolescent Behavior Letter, 10581073, Oct98, Vol. 14, Issue 10

Reproduced here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Ernest Haiman, PhD
Cries and misbehavior from children and adolescents are very much like a sore throat, aching muscles or a fever. All are symptoms. Ail have causes.

For generations, parents have sought a reliable and dependable way to handle childhood misbehavior. One of the most recent techniques is time-out. Although time-out is better than spanking, it is not an appropriate way to deal with misbehavior, as it may create subsequent childhood behavior problems that can affect a child's well-being and severely strain the parent-child relationship.

Behaviors are symptoms
Children's behaviors are determined, for the most part, by how children feel about the current state of their physical and psychosocial needs. Children feel these needs strongly, and are, by nature, quite sensitive to them. If one or more of their needs are not met, children will soon feel uncomfortable.

When children feel uncomfortable, they cry. Infants' and toddlers' cries announce their feelings of frustration. These cries have evolved as a survival mechanism. They attract parental attention. The purpose of a cry is to obtain the kind and quality of parental love and care that will properly attend to unmet needs and, therefore, establish feelings of security in the child. Older child and adolescent misbehavior serves the same purpose as the baby's cry -- it announces that needs are frustrated.

Cries and misbehavior from children and adolescents are, in a way, very much like a sore throat, stuffed-up nose, aching muscles or a fever. All are symptoms. All have causes. A medical practitioner knows that when the virus or bacteria that is causing physical symptoms is eliminated, the noxious feelings will be quelled. Similarly, when parents correctly diagnose and provide remedies that address the needs of children and adolescents, the symptoms of crying or misbehavior will also disappear.

Unmet needs can be uncomfortable at any age, but it is more so for children due to their dependent nature. Young children lack the ability to meet their own needs, and until a certain age, are physically unable to do most selfcare tasks. Their often intense outbursts stem from this frustrating dependency, coupled with their inability to tolerate frustration well. In addition, infants, toddlers and many preschool-aged children are unable to identify the frustrated needs that are making them upset. This makes it impossible to tell their parents what is bothering them.

Time-out increases frustration
When time-out is used, parents first firmly demand that their child stop misbehaving and be quiet. The child is usually required to go and sit alone in a room, away from parents, and is admonished not to come out of the room until he is sure he can control his behavior. Being placed in time-out prolongs the time that a child must endure the frustrated need that caused the misbehavior. Thus, unmet normal needs become increasingly uncomfortable as the time-out continues.

The fact that the child must be alone and away from the parents he or she depends upon, wants to be with, loves and relies on, exacerbates this increasingly uncomfortable state of being frustrated. Moreover, being alone in time-out can create additional disturbing feelings that the child must endure, such as fear and worry.

A frustrated child who must sit quietly and alone in time-out frequently becomes angry. Although they dare not express this anger when in time-out, children often express it by becoming angry and defiant sometime after being released from time-out.

Frequent time-out has lifelong effects
For the frustrated and uncomfortable child, time-out offers enforced silence and the feeling of being rejected by one's parents. A youngster who misbehaves and then is given time-out feels hurt, which, combined with the frustration that caused the youngster to misbehave, gives birth to anger. Discipline practices that create hurt and anger can harm a child.

Time-out sends the message that one should bottle up uncomfortable emotions. Children desperately need to stop the painful feelings going on inside them when they are upset in time-out and unable to express these feelings. To cope, they learn to ignore and/or distract themselves from the energy of their hurt and angry feelings, and thus, they learn to repress them. In the process, nervous habits emerge, such as thumb sucking, fingernail biting, hair pulling, skin scratching, tugging at clothes, self-pinching and many other similar behaviors. These behaviors serve to ward off uncomfortable feelings and, in identification with their parents' criticism, to punish themselves. Such defense strategies also serve to release anger and ignore uncomfortable feelings.

As a result, being unaware of true feelings often can become a characteristic feature of a person's life. This reduces a person's self-awareness and can affect the quality of life forever.

Developing the well-behaved child
Interpersonal dilemmas and conflicts are best resolved when each individual has sufficient opportunity to talk to and be heard by the other person. Modeling, initiating and practicing the process of open dialogue is essential if a youngster is to learn healthy problem-solving. Helping children talk about how they feel, combined with parental patience, is required if children are to develop the ability to verbalize their feelings and needs rather than act them out.

Parents can develop a well-behaved, self-disciplined child best by responsively and continuously meeting their child's developmentally normal needs and drives; by demonstrating and articulating humane values in day-to-day interactions with their youngster; and by exposing their child to life experiences that strengthen and reinforce these values. Parents who do not meet their child's normal needs and drives consistently and appropriately create troubled and spoiled children.

When children are physically healthy, well-nourished, satisfactorily exercised and not tired, their basic normal physical needs are being met. Their social and emotional needs are fulfilled when they receive sufficient and continuous satisfying attention, affection and recognition from parents and other adults and children to whom the child is emotionally attached. Ifa child's normal curiosity, exploratory nature and intrinsic interests are regularly allowed opportunities to unfold and develop, the intellectual needs of that child will be satisfied. When young children are given opportunities, within a securely supportive and trustworthy environment, to become increasingly more independent, make choices and meaningfully participate in decision-making, their normal need to exercise some control over their life and to express their own will are being appropriately addressed.

It's very important for parents and parents-to-be to learn the developmentally normal characteristics of each stage of early human development. It's also important to recognize a virulent myth that still exists in our society: that fully meeting a child's needs will spoil the child. The research literature clearly says that the opposite is true. The well-disciplined child is created when parents appropriately fulfill the needs of childhood and adolescence.
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

One last comment, Mark.

You display in your signature that you are the CEO of a company who is making their money out of selling books and giving conferences about how to control children using behavioral techniques.
So pardon me if I don't exactly expect you to be objective about this topic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkLakewood336 View Post
If you actually read this article, you will find that it is an opinion and not research based.
The article I cited was from Dr. Laura Markham, who happens to do conferences about parenting and sell books, just like you. Except she is a clinical psychologist, unlike you.

Note to Cybele: yes, I can probably offer some insights and help. But I am finishing my master degree's final publication, deadline is in a few days. So I'll be back when I have a bit of time.
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Last edited by parentastic; 08-24-2013 at 12:11 AM..
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:14 AM   #25
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

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Originally Posted by parentastic View Post
One last comment, Mark.

You display in your signature that you are the CEO of a company who is making their money out of selling books and giving conferences about how to control children using behavioral techniques.
So pardon me if I don't exactly expect you to be objective about this topic...


The article I cited was from Dr. Laura Markham, who happens to do conferences about parenting and sell books, just like you. Except she is a clinical psychologist, unlike you.

Note to Cybele: yes, I can probably offer some insights and help. But I am finishing my master degree's final publication, deadline is in a few days. So I'll be back when I have a bit of time.
I am glad that you have an opinion on the subject. However, I would strongly encourage that you don't attempt to discourage those from implementing a proven, research based disciplinary technique on their child. As a therapist, I not only have seen this procedure work quite effectively on children but I also developed and taught an ongoing parenting program to voluntary and court ordered clients.

As I mentioned before, instead of coming down on me and my opinion regarding how this mother should cope with her child, maybe you should offer your own opinions. That is what this forum is all about, not attacking the ones who indeed are trying to help by offering an opinion.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:49 AM   #26
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

Umm... hi, I'm right here and I have a name and it's not 'this mother', please don't call me that, I am a person, not a relationship description.

Debate is very much appreciated, clearly this is something with very strong feelings on each side, and the science behind these things is important to know, it's not secret psychology business. As there are two sides though it will be suitable for some and not for others, I had stated multiple times that I am of the 'not for me' camp. I ask questions for ideas, not instructions. Like many things, with ideas you pick and choose, and debate helps make those decisions.

Parentastic said he will offer ideas later and why not now. I can't guarantee that they will be for me or not for me, but like with everyone else I will appreciate them as long as I am respected as the person equipped to make that call.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:28 AM   #27
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

Cybele, he sounds like a hoot! Honestly, he doesn't sound like a naughty kid, just one who is trying to figure out what his role in society is going to be. Sounds like you might have a comedian in the making.

Now Lupan, bless his heart, was not the comedian kinda kid, he was just that kid who didn't think before he acted. You know the kid who rides down stairs, only days after learning, because it looked like fun or touching the electric fence, cause again it looked like fun...over and over again.

I'd like to say that as an adult he has outgrown it, and on some levels he has, but not on all. He's a 21 year old, who is still very much 12 at heart. I mean I got him a Nerf gun for his birthday, along with floor mats for his truck. You'd have thought he won the lottery, not to mention the joy he felt chasing his younger siblings around and shooting them.

We almost always allowed natural consequences to be his punishment, his natural inquisitiveness was a hard thing to battle, but we also talked a lot about stop, think and act. It's pretty self explanatory.

We drilled that into his head, and it worked some of the time.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:37 AM   #28
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybele View Post
Umm... hi, I'm right here and I have a name and it's not 'this mother', please don't call me that, I am a person, not a relationship description.

Debate is very much appreciated, clearly this is something with very strong feelings on each side, and the science behind these things is important to know, it's not secret psychology business. As there are two sides though it will be suitable for some and not for others, I had stated multiple times that I am of the 'not for me' camp. I ask questions for ideas, not instructions. Like many things, with ideas you pick and choose, and debate helps make those decisions.

Parentastic said he will offer ideas later and why not now. I can't guarantee that they will be for me or not for me, but like with everyone else I will appreciate them as long as I am respected as the person equipped to make that call.
I agree. Sorry for referring to you as the mother. I assumed that this was the case.
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Old 08-24-2013, 10:54 AM   #29
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

I had the same issues with time-out. It becomes such a chore that the original offense is forgotten. What seems to be working for mine is a stop-and-discuss plus a task. But it's a different set of behaviors in my house anyway.

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Parentastic said he will offer ideas later and why not now.
I always assumed Parentastic was a woman.
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Old 08-24-2013, 12:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: Not sure what to do with Sasha

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Originally Posted by akmom View Post
I had the same issues with time-out. It becomes such a chore that the original offense is forgotten.
Yes, exactly! The purpose of a parental intervention should be, IMO, to have the child focus on the issue and find an effective solution to the root cause. Timeouts is an intervention only aimed at changing a behavior through conditioning, which fails spectacularly when it comes to have the child actually reflect on the real issue.
When it "succeeds", it usually involved discussions and work that eventually works... despite the counter-productive effect of the timeout.

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What seems to be working for mine is a stop-and-discuss plus a task.
Yep. This is called reparation and empowerment, techniques and principles I have been advocating right from day 1 in these forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akmom View Post
I always assumed Parentastic was a woman.
My first name is under each of my post in my signature
But hey, it's true that men are less likely to suggest positive or democratic solutions, if we are to follow the social stereotypes. So I can understand your assumption
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