meals and food choices

[somebody]

There was a discussion on another board I participate in about kids and food. I am curious what you all think.

In our house, what is prepared for dinner is what is prepared for dinner. Kids eat it or don't eat. Breakfast and lunch are completely at their control within a set of healthy choices. The kids have access to cook books and are encouraged to suggest meals that they would like to try, with or without helping to cook it.

In my opinion, food choices are made based on several factors. The most important role of food is sustenance and nutrition. It also can taste good, be a pleasant way to enjoy company... But its first role is sustenance and nutrition.

For us we want to teach the kids to
- understand healthy eating
- not use food and eating as an emotional crutch
- be prepared in the case of want to eat for the sake of sustenance
- be able to deal politely with a situation in which they are offered food as guests that they don't like

In the other group these ideas were met with ... well horror. It was mean and controlling to try to teach these values to the kids. (We live them ourselves. I hate chili. Beans are cheap. We eat chili.) Kids should never be forced to eat what they don't like. (They aren't forced to eat what they don't like since they can always choose not to eat.)

I am curious what other folks think on this issue. Is this the kind of thing that is appropriate here?

[sbattisti]

Well, I think there are a lot of different variables here. First, how old are your kids? It's one thing to offer the cookbooks to your teenagers. It's another to offer them to a 10-year old.

I imagine some of the reaction you are getting may be in your personality or turn of phrase. It sounds like you are trying to instill some excellent values in your kids, and frankly I wish my kids learned some of that too. But your post comes across as flatly draconian. So, where your message COULD come across as encouraging and creative (such as some kind of system where once each week you work together with your kids to create a meal of their choosing), it comes across instead as rather cold and harsh (they eat what is given to them, or they don't eat, and if they don't like it, they can damn well look something up themselves!).

You have an extremely clinical way of deciphering food. While it's undoubtedly true, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone so baldly pointing out that nutrition is the most important, taste or preference be damned. I'd wager that most health-conscious people try to find meals that are nutritious, tasty, AND within their budget, and not sit there cramming down chili they can't stand because it's cheap and has protein.

I rather suspect your translation of the horror on the other boards isn't really true to what's being said over there. I doubt there is horror that you would try to teach those values to your kids, but I suspect that many people disagree with how you are going about teaching those values, and again, I think this may have to do with the very clinical approach you have.

As an aside, it's kind of unfair to say "They aren't forced to eat what they don't like because they can always choose not to eat." That's roughly akin to saying, "They aren't forced to ride the bus 10 miles to school in the rain, because they can always walk." Well, sure, strictly speaking, it's true. But it's kind of unreasonable, isn't it? So, you're saying your kids can choose between skipping a meal and cramming something down they can't stand. I'm just not sure that helps your kids develop a healthy relationship with food.

All of the above only really goes to explain why people might have reacted as they did in that other forum. Certainly, the concept of "you'll eat what I make or you won't eat" has been around for a very long time, at least in the U.S. I won't pretend to know whether that means it's a healthy approach to family eating.

Most importantly, how do your kids feel about these rules? Do you feel like they are truly learning the values that you are trying to instill in them, or is it a struggle? Do you have fights about this? Disagreements? Is there anger or resentment in the family about it? To me, these are more important than how some people on a forum react. If you kids are happy and healthy and buy into your model, then it should be fine. But if food is becoming a source of strife because you're trying to pound your own perceptions of food into them, it's likely to have the inverse effect and GIVE your children food issues.

Just my thoughts, though.

~s

[Jake72]

I think it's cool you cook healthy meals for all three meals. I have never been one to force the kids to eat what they don't like. Well, we would when they were little but then we discovered the reason my daughter didn't like rice was because she was allergic to it. I felt bad that she had thrown up and felt terrible for hours because I forced her to eat something she told me after one bite she didn't like. Kids know their bodies better than adults do, and sometimes when a little one tells you they don't like it, there is a reason for it.

My kids are teens now, and really meals around here are "eat when you're hungry, fix whatever you want." Typically if I'm eating and the kids haven't had anything yet I'll make enough for them. They can eat it if they want, but if they'd rather have something else I'm okay with that too. We got out to different restaurants a couple times a week and eat together then. I know that would be met with horror from other families, but it works for us.

When they were little we didn't have the rule that if you don't like it you just don't eat. If they didn't like it they could go fix themselves a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Usually they would eat what was fixed. I don't like chili either, I actually hate most beans. I don't feed my children food I don't like, if they ask for it I'll fix it for them, but I do not expect them to eat something I don't like myself. I remember making ocra a few years ago, and after taking a bite, gagging. I did not make anyone eat it, and no one did. It was disgusting, who cares if it's healthy.



One thing I learned from some forums is some of the parents are so.... vicious. They seem to think their way is the only way and if you aren't doing it their way you are a terrible parent and your kids should be taken from you. Just don't let it bother you.

[somebody]

Originally Posted by sbattisti

Well, I think there are a lot of different variables here. First, how old are your kids? It's one thing to offer the cookbooks to your teenagers. It's another to offer them to a 10-year old.

Why is that? My eldest is 10. He cooks better than most adults as does his 7yo sister!

I imagine some of the reaction you are getting may be in your personality or turn of phrase. It sounds like you are trying to instill some excellent values in your kids, and frankly I wish my kids learned some of that too. But your post comes across as flatly draconian. So, where your message COULD come across as encouraging and creative (such as some kind of system where once each week you work together with your kids to create a meal of their choosing), it comes across instead as rather cold and harsh (they eat what is given to them, or they don't eat, and if they don't like it, they can damn well look something up themselves!).

My tone irritates you for some reason. Actually I had nothing to do with the conversation until one woman basically lambasted another for literally having no money to buy her child peanut butter. But there it is.

They actually can't cook something up themselves as that woudl be really rude.

I wonder what you would expect form your child when they go over to someone else's house. If they don't "like" what is served, do they say so? I hope mine don't! I hope they aren't that rude!
[quote]
You have an extremely clinical way of deciphering food.
[/quote'
Deciphering? Is food a code?

While it's undoubtedly true, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone so baldly pointing out that nutrition is the most important, taste or preference be damned. I'd wager that most health-conscious people try to find meals that are nutritious, tasty, AND within their budget, and not sit there cramming down chili they can't stand because it's cheap and has protein.

Well in fact we do try to make things that people like. We aren't ogres. But not everyone in the family likes all the same things. And yah sometimes needing to buy what is on sale is a higher priority. And I think you missed the point of VALUING being able to eat that which you don't necessarily cheer about.

I rather suspect your translation of the horror on the other boards isn't really true to what's being said over there. I doubt there is horror that you would try to teach those values to your kids, but I suspect that many people disagree with how you are going about teaching those values, and again, I think this may have to do with the very clinical approach you have.

Ok! How am I teaching those values? I think you are making a fair number of assumptions.

Most importantly, how do your kids feel about these rules? Do you feel like they are truly learning the values that you are trying to instill in them, or is it a struggle? Do you have fights about this? Disagreements? Is there anger or resentment in the family about it?

Well they would rather eat mac n cheese with every meal. But otherwise they see the point. It is something we discuss along the same lines as the importance of keeping the house more or less tidy, brushing teeth, doing their school work... There are no disagreements or grumblings. Dinner time is a pleasant time since it is the first time they get to see Daddy during the day.

To me, these are more important than how some people on a forum react.

I was more interested in people's view on food.

Just my thoughts, though.

~s

Thanks for them!

[NancyM]

Food is a big control factor, especially when one person is in charge of feeding others, I see that with my mother in law, she was always controlling her family with food. They always had to eat what ever she cooked, and they did because they knew they would go hungry if they fussed at all. My sister in law has always been overweight, and she claims it's because she doesn't know how to refuse food since it was instilled in her at a young age to eat weather you liked it or not.

I don't approve of it, and have never allowed her to push food on me or my son.

I too have always rather cooked what I know my son would eat, than have him not eat at all.

His doctor once said, if he likes chicken, and baked potato, so make him chicken and baked potato,whats the big deal? What's really the big deal about him eating it everyday as long as he's eating it and enjoying it?

So that's what I did. I never forced fed him, nor did my parents force us to eat food we didn't like and as a result, there was no stress related with eating, it was just more enjoyable that way.

[somebody]

Originally Posted by Jake72

I think it's cool you cook healthy meals for all three meals. I have never been one to force the kids to eat what they don't like. Well, we would when they were little but then we discovered the reason my daughter didn't like rice was because she was allergic to it. I felt bad that she had thrown up and felt terrible for hours because I forced her to eat something she told me after one bite she didn't like. Kids know their bodies better than adults do, and sometimes when a little one tells you they don't like it, there is a reason for it.

Oh yah. I certainly don't advocate eating things to which you are allergic or intolerant! Pretty sure my son is not intolerant to all fruits and veggies though!

My kids are teens now, and really meals around here are "eat when you're hungry, fix whatever you want." Typically if I'm eating and the kids haven't had anything yet I'll make enough for them. They can eat it if they want, but if they'd rather have something else I'm okay with that too.

That is what life is like during the day. Both kids, though young, are very capable in the kitchen. All they need is supervision not to burn themselves or the house down. Even that they don't really need, but I do it anyway!

We got out to different restaurants a couple times a week and eat together then. I know that would be met with horror from other families, but it works for us.

We eat dinner at night. Sometimes <bad parenting alert> we eat while watching a movie in the living room.

When they were little we didn't have the rule that if you don't like it you just don't eat. If they didn't like it they could go fix themselves a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Usually they would eat what was fixed. I don't like chili either, I actually hate most beans. I don't feed my children food I don't like, if they ask for it I'll fix it for them, but I do not expect them to eat something I don't like myself. I remember making ocra a few years ago, and after taking a bite, gagging.

There are definitely things that are on the total no go list. We make something different for them if we are making something spicy or genuinely weird.

I am really pleased with the kids wrt their habits. DS used to be a very finicky eater. But time has shown him that if he tries things he might like them after all!

I remember one time being a preteen, maybe a little younger. I was in a big city visiting with my cousin. My aunt took us over to a friend of hers. We were totally just tagging along so aunt could visit friend. Friend made dinner. Liver and onions. Still hate liver and onions. My cousin was in a genuine dilemma. She was DISTRAUGHT that Mom actually expected her to eat that politely. She wound up causing a scene which embarrassed her, her Mom and the friend. I was lucky. I had much experience politely choking down food that was nasty.

One thing I learned from some forums is some of the parents are so.... vicious. They seem to think their way is the only way and if you aren't doing it their way you are a terrible parent and your kids should be taken from you. Just don't let it bother you.

Still and all, there are good ideas out there that are worth considering. I think examining what we are doing and why is a good thing.

[somebody]

Originally Posted by NancyM

Food is a big control factor, especially when one person is in charge of feeding others, I see that with my mother in law, she was always controlling her family with food. They always had to eat what ever she cooked, and they did because they knew they would go hungry if they fussed at all. My sister in law has always been overweight, and she claims it's because she doesn't know how to refuse food since it was instilled in her at a young age to eat weather you liked it or not.

I don't approve of it, and have never allowed her to push food on me or my son.

My SIL will say "good job" when they finish their plate. When obesity is epidemic, why is eating a "good job"? I actually had a fight with my FIL about this many years ago, I try really hard not to get in between my son (the would be picky eater) and my in-laws. But god eating at their house was a nightmare. They would push and push and push for him to eat more. Why is no I am not hungry a bad answer?

I too have always rather cooked what I know my son would eat, than have him not eat at all.

It is very rare for anyone not to eat at all. Usually when they are sick.

His doctor once said, if he likes chicken, and baked potato, so make him chicken and baked potato,whats the big deal?

That's really funny! My ped said exactly the opposite. You job is to provide nutritious food. His job is to eat or not as his body dictates.

I guess I think the "big deal" or the risk I am concerned about is making a big deal out of food and eating. When I was young, what we had to eat is what we had to eat. And when it was gone, it was gone. We are lucky that we don't live like that. But it is a possibility for their future. I want them to have the means to handle it if it should come up.

What's really the big deal about him eating it everyday as long as he's eating it and enjoying it?

Sounds like it worked for you.

So that's what I did. I never forced fed him, nor did my parents force us to eat food we didn't like and as a result, there was no stress related with eating, it was just more enjoyable that way.

Oh God my parents did. We had to eat what they considered one dinner's worth or got spanked. I just don't see eating light or skipping one meal as all that onerous.

[Jake72]

Originally Posted by somebody

Oh yah. I certainly don't advocate eating things to which you are allergic or intolerant! Pretty sure my son is not intolerant to all fruits and veggies though!

Right now I'm dealing with switching my family to a gluten-free diet, which isn't fun, but I've been doing a lot of reading. I read somewhere that close to 80% of children don't like vegetables because they are very sensitive to bitter tastes. It comes from some gene everyone has, and over the years your sensitivity to bitter tastes dies down, which is why you often find that your teens suddenly love green beans, when back when they were 5 you couldn't bribe them to eat the stuff. I used to let the kids put ranch dressing on their veggies, they would eat it that way.

Although it is possible to have so many allergies, which is something I've been learning while reading on celiac disease, it's unlikely as you said. That's just him being picky.

We eat dinner at night. Sometimes <bad parenting alert> we eat while watching a movie in the living room.

If that's bad parenting then I'm the worse parent in the world. We eat our food usually sitting on the couch watching TV. Our table is used for homework....

I remember one time being a preteen, maybe a little younger. I was in a big city visiting with my cousin. My aunt took us over to a friend of hers. We were totally just tagging along so aunt could visit friend. Friend made dinner. Liver and onions. Still hate liver and onions. My cousin was in a genuine dilemma. She was DISTRAUGHT that Mom actually expected her to eat that politely. She wound up causing a scene which embarrassed her, her Mom and the friend. I was lucky. I had much experience politely choking down food that was nasty.

Whenever my children would go over to someone's house for dinner, I told them they had to try everything on their plate and they weren't allowed to ask for anything else. They never had to deal with liver and onions. I wouldn't expect my child to eat something revolting just to be polite. I told them if they absolutely hated what was being served just say you really aren't that hungry, and I would feed them when they got home.

Still and all, there are good ideas out there that are worth considering. I think examining what we are doing and why is a good thing.

Absolutely, I just tend to ignore people who are mean about shoving their lifestyle down the throats of everyone else. (I'm not saying you are doing that, because you aren't.)

[Father_0f_7]

My kids aren't really picky eaters, they just love vegetables but not so keen on fruit.

We were always able to find at least one thing that all the children liked so we would make that. The we had something that one of the kids LOVED and the others just kind of tolerated...we ate that.

We never had something that the kids (or even one of the kids) absolutely hated. I HATE coleslaw, I would rather chop my hand off than eat coleslaw (no, i'm not kidding). We never made the kids different meals just because they only kind of liked the meal and not loved the meal.

Now, today we sometimes do just because of Billy. Depending on what his blood sugar is, he may need something different than the other kids. But that is on a very rare occasion.

[somebody]

I guess I am nuts. I just don't see liking the food you eat as all that important. And I don't see going without as that big of a deal. I hate coleslaw too.