Nature vs nurture.

[Testing]

mom2many: I am a staunch supporter of Gay rights. I believe they are born that way and outside influence be damn.

However, your points are also correct. That is not what nature intended, you are right that our reproductive organs have a purpose, and at the end of the day they are created for reproduction. The fact that is enjoyable is a bonus (thankfully). Like you said though, nature does show us that these genetic anomalies do exist. No matter where you stand in the debate these facts can not be ignored. I also agree that no one has to act on their feelings, but I believe that people have a right to be happy. Whatever that is so long as it doesn't break any laws. Not religious laws, peoples beliefs are personal and should stay that way. I firmly believe religion should have no role in any government.

Now this is exactly the sort of rhetoric that I was hoping for and expecting on a Debate forum! We disagree on a point or two, but civilly and without personal attack. Awesome.

This is why I asked you to break it down. I felt that to much of your opinion was being lost in the debate when at it's core it is not an incorrect view. Just being pushed to the point that you were not getting a fair representation.

I appreciate that. I much prefer to debate on the merits.

I do not like to see the rep buttons abused....that goes for anyone

Thank you. I can't imagine using that for disagreement only. "Your mother is a blankety blank", maybe, though I'd be much more likely to just point out the irrelevance of the personal attack.

So everyone who responded emotionally to give me negative marks should rationally reverse their reputation score, as I have not violated the guidelines of the forums.

Or you could all just associate with those who agree with you all the time, but what fun would that be?

[mom2many]

Originally Posted by Testing

Thank you. I can't imagine using that for disagreement only. "Your mother is a blankety blank", maybe, though I'd be much more likely to just point out the irrelevance of the personal attack.

So everyone who responded emotionally to give me negative marks should rationally reverse their reputation score, as I have not violated the guidelines of the forums.

Or you could all just associate with those who agree with you all the time, but what fun would that be?

LOL ideally that would be nice wouldn't it?

I must go fee my chicklin's if I hear "I am hungry" one more time my head my start spinning

[bssage]

I agree with what M2m said. While I am not really in testings camp. I think testing has made some very valid points along the way. I think it would go a long way toward keeping things civil If even when its an opposing view. A little acknowledgment when a good point is made. And this should go both ways. I am only using testing as a example because that is the "hot ticket" of the day.

Now for you nature folks. If we believe the Kinsly scale. Then we would have to acknowledge that there are people in the middle of the scale ( who's bias is not as great in either direction) That nurture could determine the outcome. Is that not a fair statement? Because if its not a fair statment then the only other possible answer I can think of is that they must bisexual.

So while it may be fair to say most/a lot/a majority, of homosexuals are born that way. It would not be fair to say all Homosexuals are born that way.

[singledad]

Considering that I'm probably considered to be one of those who got heated, I feel I should respond.

Saying that it goes against your religion I can respect, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. If you had just said it, and left it at that, than I don't think this thread would have gone nearly as far as it had. I respect every person's right to follow his chosen religion, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. And as long as you keep in mind that insisting that others follow your personal set of religious morals and values, is bound to cause trouble.

Having read through the last few pages again, I tend to agree with Mom2all - why can't we just respect other people, and stop insisting that everyone conform to what we think is good and right? And why is it necessary to drag the whole community through the mud by bringing up predatory teens, and lewd comments made about younger children, as if these things are somehow representative of the gay community. Why can't you accept that the vast majority of gay people are just ordinary people, going about their lives, minding their own business, who just want society to give them and their relationships the same kind of respect everyone else gets? I don't think they are asking for your approval - just respect.

[singledad]

Originally Posted by bssage

So while it may be fair to say most/a lot/a majority, of homosexuals are born that way. It would not be fair to say all Homosexuals are born that way.

I believe we should always () be careful when we use the words "all", "none", "always", "never", etc. They are rarely true.

[cybele]

I think you are 100% correct singledad.

[Testing]

singledad:
Saying that it goes against your religion I can respect, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. If you had just said it, and left it at that, than I don't think this thread would have gone nearly as far as it had.

But there is a reason why scripture tells us not to do this. It isn't just a baseless statement declared just to ruin the fun for people. To simply say, "My religion prohibits this." does not address the issue.

I respect every person's right to follow his chosen religion, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. And as long as you keep in mind that insisting that others follow your personal set of religious morals and values, is bound to cause trouble.

Agreed. Which is why I was not "insisting that others follow", as if I have the power to do that, anyway. Others can do whatever the hell they want, and reap what they sow, as we all will. But I'm also done with remaining silent, while giving the requisite politically-correct nod of approval. There is much pressure here in my large, politically-correct city to do this.

And why is it necessary to drag the whole community through the mud by bringing up predatory teens, and lewd comments made about younger children, as if these things are somehow representative of the gay community.

They are representative of what I'm seeing here in the teens, unfortunately. If you don't - or if you refuse to see that - good for you, I guess. I'm thinking you don't have teens, so you aren't paying attention. I would ask why it is necessary to avoid speaking the truth, and pretending the community does not contain flippers and predatory teens (who most certainly were victims of other predatory adults)?

Edited to add: Oh yes, you have one 5 year old. I didn't notice this stuff then either.

[mom2many]

God I am getting lazy lol

Originally Posted by Testing

But there is a reason why scripture tells us not to do this. It isn't just a baseless statement declared just to ruin the fun for people. To simply say, "My religion prohibits this." does not address the issue.

The problem, in my opinion, with using scripture is that it is a belief, a faith. Scripture is left to interpretation and each faith will interpret it differently. Scripture is not fact, but above that when I think of the bible I do not think of a God who condemns those he placed on this earth. God gave us the greatest gift he could...free will. He gave humans the ability to choose their course in life. Our lives can be full of disdain or we can "Love thy neighbors". That is our choice to make. By saying what other people do with their lives is their business, does not mean that you want to live that way. It does not have an effect on your religious beliefs, you are free to live those beliefs any way you choose. Now loving people and accepting people in spite of what one might see as a flaw does not mean you condone the action, it means that in spite of who or what they are they are valued.

The truth is most of us (religious people included) break some form of "rule" placed on society in the name of scripture. No one person lives their lives solely based off of the bible. We are all, even the most stout Christian/Jew/Hindu break some form of scripture.If I believed in God, he would be a lot more forgiving then most people make him out to be

Agreed. Which is why I was not "insisting that others follow", as if I have the power to do that, anyway. Others can do whatever the hell they want, and reap what they sow, as we all will. But I'm also done with remaining silent, while giving the requisite politically-correct nod of approval. There is much pressure here in my large, politically-correct city to do this.

Again, accepting people just for who they are is not remaining silent. It is letting people be themselves and live their lives (which have no effect on any one individual) and to be happy.



They are representative of what I'm seeing here in the teens, unfortunately. If you don't - or if you refuse to see that - good for you, I guess. I'm thinking you don't have teens, so you aren't paying attention. I would ask why it is necessary to avoid speaking the truth, and pretending the community does not contain flippers and predatory teens (who most certainly were victims of other predatory adults)?

I am not even remotely sure what you are talking about here. I have raised 4 teens with 4 more headed that way. Being a predator has nothing to do with being gay/straight, religious/non religious. Predators are people with mental illness, where are you that this is the correlation that you came up with such a thing?

Edited to add: Oh yes, you have one 5 year old. I didn't notice this stuff then either.

This is the kinda comment I was talking about yesterday. The thread is pushing a lot of my patience.

[Mom2all]

Okay Testing.. I have very strong beliefs also. For that.. I'll stand on my soap box and spew forth things that my spiritual feelings dictate.

Matthew 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

All that to say this... if you use the scripture to justify why you can judge others for their "sins" than you are no better than those you judge. I'm sure your Bible indicates that. It makes me angry that people use the Bible to justify ugly feelings they want to express. If you condemn someone.. you will be condemned by that same standard.. and PS. No one sin is greater than another. I wish we'd all stop throwing stones.

I think this thread got way out of hand because some took up the issue of not what we should tell our children, but what we should believe about homosexuality. And those of us who see people as just people.. are offended at the way homosexuals are depicted.

My cousin, he served in the military. Very Patriotic.
He took over the care of my Grandma when she became sick. Day in and day out he stayed with her for months. Very compassionate.
He has a wonderful sense of style. Always handsome.
And loves to tell a joke. So very funny.

By your standards... I can take the image that a few young people on the internet or in the news and base my opinions for the whole.

So I should say... goodness... if only we had more gay people in the world, we'd have people that defend their country, are compassionate to others, are very funny, handsome and dress well doing it. How could we ask for anything better in our young people?

But I am no fool. Michael's character has nothing to do with his sexual orientation. And his sexual orientation has nothing to do with his character.

And about the earlier comment about not using the example about race... Its about the stereotype of a group of people. Race, religion, sexual orientation, hell even geography play a role in that. So yes.. its all relative.

And yes.. I am the mother of teenagers. 21,20,19,17,15, and 13. All of them have been around gay people. None of them indicate anything other than the usual drive for contact with the opposite sex. 2 in fact are driven a little more than I'd like. That being said.. I have very often caught my heterosexual boys and their friends making very derogatory comments about women/girls. ( and yes I hammer them for it) Its not a gay girl thing. Its a nasty, teenage, hormonal, don't think I'll get caught by an adult thing to say. I'm pretty sure, if the truth here is told, everyone of us at some point has said... "Man I'd like to have some of that" to a friend. I'd say thats vulgar and foul. But I'm guilty. And chances are, so are you.

[mom2many]

Mom2all...I think you have said it best!