Evolution (carried from homeschooling thread)

[AmyL]

Allllllrighty. I finally got this thing written. I promised PennQuaker09 that I'd pull some references and continue the discussion when we got into evolution on the homeschooling thread. This is more of a debate, so I'm moving it here.


Let me say, I really don't think I'm going to be changing anyone's mind on the subject. For one thing, I'm not smart enough or well enough informed too handle all details of the arguments. I would be thrilled though, if someone from either side was more understanding of the other. Just the little bit of research I've done has been interesting and I've learned some things. That's always a good thing.


Okay, the first reference I said I'd pull for you is a list of famous scientists who believed in God (and in my reckoning, were able to have a faith in God while at the same time being accomplished scientists). This site http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...encefaith.html has a list. I spot checked several of them on Wikipedia and the entries there agreed with this site. I think the Einstein one is more on the questionable side, but the writings of the other men support their being included on the list.


I picked this site because it was one of the first results I got when I Googled famous Christian scientists. It looks like this site makes a lot of the arguments I was referring to when I said there's a lot of agreement between the Bible and science. Another very well respected organization is Answers in Genesis. http://www.answersingenesis.org/


Looks like PBS is going to have a show on Intelligent Design on November 13 at 8pm. Should be interesting. Personally, I think that ID is an attempt to marry the opposing sides of the argument, or perhaps to advocate creation without directly saying God did it. What I find interesting, and the reason I mentioned it in my post earlier, is the attention it's getting.



I am less sure of my claim that ID is overtaking evolution. There's not an easy way for me to quantify that one. But. The sites I can find on it are either old or made by direct proponents of the theory. I was hoping for some third-party analysis. I have read a few things over the years, but am currently too lazy to dig through my magazines to find the articles.


Jonathon Wells wrote a fascinating book called Icons of Evolution. http://www.iconsofevolution.com/index.php3


And Nick Matzke wrote a pretty detailed response here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/well...l#introduction


PennQuaker, you stated that history textbooks are wildly inaccurate but turned around and believe that because a certain textbook that espouses evolution is widely used that therefore evolution must be true. Those arguments don't agree. Why should I trust that science books are accurate on the face of it, but not history?


You said “in the normal biology class, evolution is presented in manner so that students can make up their own mind about it”. If that were truly the case, then why was the Kitzmiller case prosecuted? From what I understand the school district wanted to read a disclaimer that evolution is a theory and not a fact along with presenting ID on the side for comparison. Have you read the statement that the board presented to the students? I see nothing wrong with it.


You also said that it's blatantly unconstitutional to discuss creation/ID in the classroom. That's just plain wrong. The part of the constitution that applies here is the first amendment, which says that “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof.” How on earth saying that evolution is a theory is an act of establishing a religion is completely beyond me. There is nothing in the constitution that says church and state should be separate. Nothing. It says that Congress can make no laws about it, and cannot stop anyone from exercising their religion freely.


Also. Kitzmiller was decided by one judge. One. I don't care what the argument is. One judge's decision does not make something Truth. For that matter, a whole pile of judges deciding something doesn't make it Truth. I'm not going to jump off the cliff into massive philosophical meanderings here, so I'll leave it at that.


You also said that schools don't teach that being gay is okay. Just check the pflag and glsen sites to see programs they offer to schools. Those are taught. Not everywhere, but they are taught. (I know that's not evolution, but I had promised to get references for that too).


Well, that should do it for the opening round. Fire away everyone.

[jenilouise]

Just wanted to thank you for the links since I homeschool and supplements are always appreciated.

[Kaytee]

I have nothing to add, I think what you wrote was very well done!!

Also one of my favorite saying " I broke a rule, I prayed i school"

[Skyburning]

I'm sorry, I didn't read the homeschool thread so I'm not sure what this debate is to be on..whether or not evolution is real? I'm a little confused.

Evolution cannot be argued, species evolve, they have to in order to stay alive.
Is this to be about the issue of humans evolving from monkeys vs. created by God, or evolution in general?

[AmyL]

Lol. It's kind of a mishmash. I moved it here b/c we were getting so off topic in the other thread, which was about the benefits of home schooling. Yes, the issue is evolution vs. creation. Penn stated that evolution is a fact and supported the argument with facts such as how it's taught in the public schools, what text books are used, and the Kitzmiller case. There's a pretty good analysis of that case on wikipedia, btw.

Jenilouse, you're welcome for the links. I'm an Internet fanatic, and I love to research things that way.

Kaytee, awww thanks. I worked hard on it.

[jenilouise]

I used to pray in school all the time- especially before tests to center myself.

[Kaytee]

can't do it now, unless you do it with your head straight up eyes open and hands apart. If you look like you are praying you can get in trouble in some schools

[Skyburning]

The school I went to allowed personal prayer just not group prayer. As in, you couldn't form a large group in the commons with everyone else around and pray out loud.

[AmyL]

Seriously??? You can't pray privately? That's nuts! And illegal.

[Kaytee]

in some schools yes that is the "rule" They think that if a child prays they are spreading their message to others who do not believe a they do or some crud like that. They also have banned the Pledge in a lot of schools because it says "under God"