Awkward situation with 18-year-old son...

Andrew W.

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Jul 22, 2013
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Our son Kevin, 18, just graduated from high school, where he was a straight A student and kind of nerdy (speaking as a former high school nerd myself). He had never shown much interest in girls until near the beginning of his senior year, when he suddenly got a girlfriend, a freshman cheerleader named Fawn who is absolutely drop-dead gorgeous, wears as close to nothing as she can get away with, and is--how shall I put this--not very intellectually capable. Fawn is sweet, always extremely polite, and despite her manner of dress, very innocent. She seems devoted to Kevin even though she could probably have any teen boy in town she set her eyes on just because of her looks. We have tried hard not to embarrass her or Kevin when she says something that makes us cringe and to avoid comments on the skimpiness of her attire. Kevin assures us they are not having sex, and we trust him on that. Nevertheless, we have not been terribly happy about our son's choice of girlfriends.

Recently we discovered that Kevin spanks Fawn. Not just one or two hand swats on Fawn's bottom, which we have seen him do playfully when she wears something that shows off a lot of her bottom like a thong bikini or some of her shorts, but multiple stroke "corrections" administered with the back side of an old wooden hairbrush that Fawn always keeps in her purse. This has evidently been going on the whole time they have been dating. Fawn considers it perfectly normal, and Fawn's parents have known all along and approve. Fawn is still spanked at home by her father.

My wife and I do not approve of spanking. We have raised our two without ever using it. (Okay, once.) Our son holds values similiar to ours, which I would describe as liberal, but he doesn't see any problem with spanking Fawn. He sees it as an entirely cultural difference, and says that I am prejudiced against Fawn's family--which I have to admit may be true. I have caught myself thinking the words "white trash" to refer to them more than once, although I don't think I have actually said those words aloud to Kevin. Fawn completely believes that she should be spanked. While Fawn is Kevin's first girlfriend, Kevin is not Fawn's first boyfriend. Fawn tells us her previous boyfriends also spanked her.

We are concerned, for Kevin, because we don't want him to see women as property, for Fawn, who is a nice girl who deserves better than what she has been brainwashed to accept and would probably make a wonderful girlfriend for somebody else's son, and for our daughter, a classmate and fellow cheerleader of Fawn's, because of the influence her older brother may have on her. Needless to say, we can't very well call Child Protection without completely alienating Kevin and possibly getting him into trouble, besides which we haven't actually seen any clear evidence of physical abuse on Fawn's body, most of which has been visible every day this summer with the weather so hot. It is the emotional abuse and the lack of self-image engendered by that which most concerns me. We can't make rules for Kevin without being hypocritical ourselves.

Any suggestions? Kevin says we should mind our own business, but I think this is our business. Am I wrong?
 

IADad

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Feb 23, 2009
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Um...Okay, First Andrew, please don't take this the wrong way when I say my troll alarm went off. If you're a troll you're an intellectual troll, and I seriously doubt you would have gone through all you have contributed elsewhere just to lay the groundwork for trolling. So,you have the benefit of the doubt.

Let's approach this a couple of ways.

First as for you disapproving of "Fawn" consider it from a natural selection perspective and maybe he didn't make such a bad choice after all.

I assume you are shying away from your judgement of her as "white trash" because you are uncomfortable with the fact that you're being prejudicial or judgmental at all. Perhaps you can adopt more of a zen approach? Rather than "Cringing" how about just accepting, after all she is what and who she is whether you cringe or not and regardless of how you judge her.

Now, to the meat of the matter, do you have any idea how or why he started spanking her at all? This seems key to understanding why he does it. Can I ask how you discovered that he does this?

Are you really sure they aren't intimate - seems naive (also seems illegal if they are.)

BOTTOM LINE: (apologies for the pun) He's an adult. You've voiced your concerns. I think you have to let it go and let the chips fall where they may. If you persist you risk alienating him and if their relationship is as short-lived as you believe it should be where will that leave you with him, after she's slipped off onto some other daddy's lap?

Other than that, I don't understand.
 

cybele

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Feb 27, 2012
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I can relate very much to your first paragraph, I was in a similar situation with my oldest son. He's an arty kind of kid, all the girls he was interested in prior to his current girlfriend were a little left of centre, very creative and artistic, quite intelligent. Then a little under a year ago he brings home this girl that he fell head over heels for and became quite serious with very quickly and the only way I could accurately describe this evening that his girlfriend was over is if you watch Family Guy there is an episode where Stewie invited Brian's girlfriend Jillian over and it was pretty much like that.

However, I was set straight by a very wise person in my life and I am now quite ashamed of how judgemental I was of her. Yep she dresses generally quite inappropriate for the weather and situation and she says things that make me want to smack my head against the table, but she is incredibly passionate about animal rights and environmentalism, she has a beautiful singing voice, she is so loyal to her friends and such a caring person. That's what he saw from the beginning and I realised that I needed to start taking the advice that I always give to my kids of not judging people and actually getting to know them.

So my point is, get to know her, there is much more to someone then booksmarts and how they dress. She's young, she's going to dress in a manner that adults shake their heads at, it's what teens do, and she's still learning, she's going to say silly things. She'll grow out of these things.



As for the rest... I'm a little confused. Is this because she believes she needs to be corrected in this manner or are they getting off on it?
Not the weirdest thing I've ever heard but I am struggling mostly with the concept that her parents approve of the idea of her boyfriend spanking her if it is the former... and if it's the latter that they are okay with knowing? Does that make any sense at all?
I'm just trying to see the logic in my head and I don't get it. I can't imagine being okay with a partner of any of my kids 'punishing' them and I also don't want to know any of their bedroom 'preferences' so I am really confused over this one.
 

Andrew W.

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Jul 22, 2013
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I will try to answer most of the questions here, but there are a lot of them. I want to thank the forum for giving serious answers.

It's not Fawn I have the problem with, really. It's her family, especially her father, whom I have met exactly four times, who pushes all my buttons. What cybele said about Fawn's worth is probably right. AJ, my daughter, liked Fawn on meeting her enough to talk Kevin into tutoring her. I even think most of my anger at her father is on her behalf, not Kevin's, because she is the real victim. But I see the sexist, parochial, proprietary attitude he has toward Fawn as infecting Kevin. And Fawn's mother is a cypher. I don't think she said more than two words together either time we met, and I am sure she has never stuck up for Fawn even once in fifteen years.

As far as Fawn's father is concerned, he owns her, and he likes showing her off. He is full of pride over her beauty, her obedience, her virginity. The first time we met he said things like, "My Fawny's a virgin, and she better be a virgin when she graduates from school or somebody is going to get shot," which may have just been posturing for Kevin but was still icky, or, "I bet you never seen a girl her age with such perfect legs," which besides being crass, was also said in front of my daughter who was on the 9th grade cheerleading squad with Fawn. (AJ wasn't bothered by the comment.) He also made it clear that he still spanked Fawn, specifically that he would spank her if she ever got home late, no excuses, and that spankings did girls a world of good and kept them in their place, and that he made Fawn carry her hairbrush in her purse everywhere just in case she needed spanking. At the time I just tried not to react in order to make the subject go away and not embarrass Fawn further as everybody at the table looked at Fawn's purse, which was hanging on her chair.

He calls her Fawny, as if naming the girl Fawn wasn't diminutive enough, and she still calls him Daddy, and sat in his lap after dinner for a while before he told her she could go sit in her boyfriend's lap if she wanted to, which she then did. He has this way of treating Kevin like a pal or junior co-owner of Fawn like she was a racehorse or something that really bothers me, and he is clearly getting a vicarious thrill from his closeness to Kevin. Kevin is super-polite to him, calls him sir, agrees with him when asked to confirm something that he has just bragged about relating to Fawn, usually something objectifying. As long as Kevin isn't having sex with Fawn--because he is still ultimately in charge of her and controls that--he likes the idea of delegating his authority to spank Fawn or to have Fawn sit in his lap or any other sign of ownership to Kevin.

None of this bothers Fawn in the least as far as I can tell. Just me. It bothers my wife, too, but she isn't as riled up about the whole thing as I am. As long as Kevin is happy, she isn't going to make waves.

As for the rest... I'm a little confused. Is this because she believes she needs to be corrected in this manner or are they getting off on it?
Certainly the first. She has told me this directly. Probably a lot of the second, at least for Kevin. It is certainly possible that her lack of resistance to being spanked stems from an enjoyment of it, but if she does enjoy it, it is because she has been almost forced to, it seems to me, as a defense. It is clear she enjoys being swatted in a flirty manner by Kevin when he does that, which is all that I have actually witnessed, but she enjoys any attention or teasing from Kevin.

Are you really sure they aren't intimate - seems naive (also seems illegal if they are.)
I am a lot surer about that than about anything else in this crazy situation. That is, if you are talking about having sex. Kevin isn't ready and has told me so, besides specifically telling us they aren't having sex, Fawn's virginity is important to her because her father has inculcated that into her, and I don't think Kevin would risk whatever it is he has with Fawn's father by even suggesting sex. Also, I don't believe Kevin would lie to us directly, even about this. He is painfully honest. He would tell us, or else just refuse to answer, and tell us it is none of our business

Did you ask your son why he is doing this odd thing?
Good question. Also, what makes him think it's ok?
I understand perfectly why he does it. I actually asked him anyway, and he just looked at me and said, "Dad," in a voice that made me realize how completely I already knew the answer to that question, and maybe didn't want to. He likes to spank Fawn. The complex reasons why this beautiful young girl who has been raised to accept spankings almost without question probably shouldn't be spanked by her boyfriend aren't issues he wants to confront. I just wish I had managed to raise him to be better than that. I imagine the whole furor over "Fifty Shades of Gray" didn't help, either. I know Kevin read the book. He told me it was "badly written" but he managed to read the whole thing, which was more than I could do.

Kevin thinks it is okay to spank Fawn because her father gave him cues that it was okay and clearly approves in a "man-to-man" way that is positively mediaeval, Fawn expects to be spanked, Kevin enjoys spanking Fawn, and nothing bad happens from it that he can see. Maybe Fawn also enjoys being spanked by Kevin. Fawn's father's spankings are all about controlling her. Anything sexual is completely ignored out of existence. For her father, letting other people spank Fawn just emphasizes his control over her. (Fawn was also spanked growing up by several fathers of her playmates.) He knows there is a sexual element, but he rationalizes that as long as she is a virgin she isn't a sexual being and sex doesn't apply to her. It is the same thing with her immodest dress. He likes her to dress in skimpy clothes so all the men and boys get aroused when they look at her. He controls her, keeps her innocent, which gives him power over them. It is primitive and disgusting, but Kevin doesn't care. He doesn't see how it has hurt Fawn to be used like this.


ummm....ummm?
Believe me, I'm with you all the way there.

Part of the problem I have with the relationship is that I can't imagine it lasting very long. Kevin will get tired of Fawn, because she isn't really fully formed yet, and may never be. And Fawn is completely in love with Kevin. It is clear just from watching at her, and I have talked to AJ. Fawn tells AJ that she was never in love with her other boyfriends, and asks for reassurances from AJ that Kevin loves her. What is going to happen when he dumps her, and she has nobody but her family to support her emotionally?

Sometimes I want to give up and let everyone just do whatever it is they want to do, but I really feel I have a responsibility here. Just a responsibility to do what, I don't exactly know.
 

cybele

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I think you might need to look at this a bit more objectively and sort out what is an issue and what isn't.

Her name? Getting a bit picky there.
Being called by a nickname? To most, a non-issue, my Grandmother still calls me "Honeybee" in everyday speech, I don't think she has called me by my name since... well, ever. It's just a force of habit/showing affection.
Sitting on her father's lap? Is that really sinister? My 19yr old still sits on my husband's lap to give him hugs, it's just a way that they are comfortable showing affection.
Calling him Daddy? Might not be your cup of tea but perfectly 'normal'.

Personally, I cringe every time I hear someone, male or female, try to justify male dominance within a family/relationship, however I need to accept that this is still the norm for many people. Now, by my standards, it being their norm doesn't make it right, but it's no reason to vilify them, educating where I can is a way (and in this circumstance, I would say educating your son). The father's glorification of his daughter's virginity and body would also bother me, but again, this is the norm for some, and I agree that when you encounter it, it is very very weird and yes it could point to something sinister, but equally it could not. Remember we live in a society that glorifies female sexuality as long as she is 'untouched'. It's not right, but it's not a huge stretch for a father to value that in his child.



In your situation I would probably talk to Kevin about the moral implications of Fawn's father passing approval for Kevin to administer a form of punishment to his daughter. However, if they are both getting some form of 'enjoyment' out of it (and, as Natalie said, not having penetrative sex doesn't mean that they aren't getting some level of sexual satisfaction from the act) then it is a different kettle of fish and probably then more of a non-issue.
 

IADad

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Feb 23, 2009
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okay, so, I don't have a problem with the forecast for the length of the relationship. When I was his age I wouldn't pursue anyone (my own age, not 15 certainly) with whom I couldn't foresee a future (or at least I used it as an excuse not to ask women out.) Then I found out that they wanted what I wanted just as much as I wanted it, and I kick myself to this day, that I didn't fully enjoy all the "Freedoms" being young and in college in the 80s afforded me...

That being said, what you're describing is that he's using her. He's getting off on having an obedient little plaything that worships the ground he stands on, he treats her as his possession, so yeah, I think I'd be disappointed and tell my son, that I didn't think he was raised to treat ANY human being, regardless of gender or cuteness that way. People don't treat people like that, period, so if you're going to contiue, do it on your own.
 

Andrew W.

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Jul 22, 2013
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That being said, what you're describing is that he's using her. He's getting off on having an obedient little plaything that worships the ground he stands on, he treats her as his possession, so yeah, I think I'd be disappointed and tell my son, that I didn't think he was raised to treat ANY human being, regardless of gender or cuteness that way. People don't treat people like that, period, so if you're going to contiue, do it on your own.
I agree with a lot of this, but the problem is Kevin doesn't see that he is doing any of this. It isn't intentional. That's what I keep running into a wall about every time I try to bring it up. He thinks he is in love with her, too, and maybe he is, but this is his first real experience with this kind of relationship. He is going two hours away from home for college next year and doesn't think that will be a problem, but I know he will meet a lot of pretty girls who are his peers and interested in what he is and able to carry on a conversation.

To be fair, Kevin isn't only taking in the relationship. They met when he started out tutoring Fawn after school, just because she needed help, and that seems still to be a focus of their time. Fawn doesn't see that she is being used, either, a point that is thrown in my face every time we talk about this, and if I say Fawn is too young or too brainwashed to understand what is going on, I am not respecting her or her family's "culture". So yes, I am disappointed to some extent, but mostly I am just plain frustrated.

My wife says I can't pick up any pieces until after the vase is smashed, and I am just driving myself crazy. Maybe she is right. I said, "What about catching the vase as it falls?" and she said, "Good luck." I am just not used to not knowing what the right thing to do is. I am not so sure I am happy about looking on line for help, either, but this isn't even a situation I could possibly talk about to anyone I know in person.
 

singledad

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Personally, I wouldn't give a rats ass about her "culture" our any other excuse. A man hitting his significant other for anything other than mutual.sexual gratification, is domestic violence. Full stop.

Perhaps a trip to your nearest women's shelter would help - you know, to see where this kind of relationship leads on the long run.