Bad behaviour and parental attention...

[singledad]

First and foremost, I want to make it clear that this is NOT intended as a personal attack on pancras. My issue is with what he/she has been advocating on this site, not with him/her as a person. Simply put, I don't like it. So let's talk about it.

The combination of ignoring bad behavior and responding positively to the opposite is very effective. Ignoring alone can cause a forty fold reduction in incidence of bad behavior in a couple of weeks.

Of course, aggression and maybe a few other things cannot be ignored. A skillfully executed time-out is often a good choice in this situation.

Not sure if this is what you mean by consequences. Some adults use methods that are not as efficient or effective as the ignoring tactic (when applicable) and sometimes they even do counter-productive stuff.

I was going to quote a lot of other stuff, but it turns out that this piece sums it up bets. So, if I understand correctly, kids basically choose their behaviour based on what will get them the most attention. Thus, ignoring something means that that specific behaviour doesn't "work", and thus won't be repeated. And that anything that get the kid any kind of attention, even in the form of punishment or a dressing-down, will be repeated, because the whole point was to get attention.

Now, here's the issue I have with it -

1. Ignoring bad behaviour doesn't teach anything, other than that the particular behaviour gets you ignored. Sure, it might cause the behaviour to stop, but what does it teach? It doesn't teach why it's bad. It doesn't teach the kid what the correct way of handling the situation is. It contributes nothing to the kids internal sense of right and wrong, and it adds nothing to her arsenal of tools that can be used in various social situations. At worst, it may result in a very real need being ignored simply because the kid doesn't yet have the social skills to express the need in an appropriate manner.

2. I don't buy the idea that a normal, happy, secure and well-adjusted child will consider something as unpleasant as being the recipient of a parent's anger preferable to not being the centre of attention every single moment. I don't dispute the fact that kids act out for attention. In fact, I did a good deal of that myself as a teen. But here's the thing - my home life was more than a little dysfunctional. I didn't get love and attention from my parents, so I looked for it elsewhere.

My belief is this - every child needs a certain amount of attention to make her feel secure, loved and like she is important to her parents. I picture this in my mind as a bucket. Different children will have different sized "buckets", but that's besides the point. Now, if the child's bucket is constantly empty, that child will look for any kind of attention to get that bucket just a little bit fuller. But the closer that bucket gets to being full, the more picky the child can be at what kind of attention she will try to get. If the bucket is close to overflowing, I can't imagine that there can be much about getting in trouble that is attractive to a child.

As a parent, it is my job to keep my child's "attention bucket" as close as possible to full. With my daughter, it is noticeable that, if I've gone through a period where, for whatever reason, I haven't been able to give her the amount of attention she is used to, she starts becoming more clingy and whiny. My response to that is usually to set aside a sizeable chunk of time to spend with her - one on one. Now, some will say I am rewarding her whining with attention and thus will encourage her to whine more, but I don't think that is true. Point number one - needing attention isn't a crime that should be punished. And second - once her "attention bucket" is full again, her whining ceases, without exception.

Comments?

 

[yunihara]

Honestly, I don't agree with ignoring most misbehaviors. There are some things I ignore, but when I really think about it, I only really ignore complaining about something silly. Even then, when the whining stops, I will ask the child what was bothering them... which I guess that could be rewarding the whining because I eventually pay attention to them.

But I agree with you. Even if the child is acting out for attention, they should be taught that the behavior is unacceptable. I mean, I'd rather give my child a bit of attention but have them knowing that I disapprove of what they were doing and how they can better handle the situation than to just pretend they don't exist.

I mean, really, if I ignore my child because of something he's doing, I know him. He will get worse and worse until I absolutely have to pay attention. Also, when I was a child, if my parents ignored my bad behavior, I would have loved it. I usually acted up because I didn't want to follow their rules, not because I wanted attention. I would have MUCH rather have my parents ignore me than to punish or be disappointed in me.


If the kids are acting out for attention, I see that as the child not getting something it needs. If the child is getting adequate amounts of attention, it wouldn't be acting up as a desperate attempt for some. I don't think kids always want to be the center of attention. I think what they want is to know they're loved and that you care. Now, I don't give positive attention for bad behavior, because I think that teaches people they're incapable of being wrong.

 

[cybele]

I'm struggling to find a situation where ignoring actually works. In my (albeit, limited) experience, it just makes the attempts for attention more desperate and over the top, or, they go "Hey, I am getting away with this, going to keep doing it".

I find it an odd method because everyone craves some level of attention, especially from loved ones, even as adults it's something that human beings need. Personally, every now and then my husband gets swamped with work and we don't have time to chat like we usually do and I start craving his attention, and every now and then I have caught myself hovering around him for no apparent reason. Same goes with friends, I have a few very close friends and we are in constant contact, but if a fortnight goes by where I don't talk to them, I feel out of place.
Obviously as an adult with experience I know that the more appropriate way to get my husband's attention is to say to him "Hey, how are you feeling? You seem really stressed lately, is there anything I can do?" or my friend's attention is to pick up the phone and say "Hey, what's new?" as opposed to my 5yr old's tactic which would be to sit next to someone and make robot noises, but it is still the exact same need. I just deal with it in an adult manner, whereas he deals with it in a 5yr old manner.

By the same token I don't decide that I am going to not hug my kids if they do something I dislike, or that I am not going to feed them, or that I am going to steal all their bedsheets so they are cold. All are needs and withdrawal of needs to 'correct' behaviour is not something I think is okay.

How I personally deal with behavioural issues is on a case by case basis.

Is it something they know is not right?
Kids aren't born all knowing, you have to teach them. Do they know that this behaviour is unacceptable?

What's the reason behind their behaviour?
Something I have learned is that there is never no reason.
Is the child tired?
Is the child feeling unwell?
Is the situation unsuitable for a child? (We have all encountered the misbehaving child in the café who is expected to sit there for an hour in silence with nothing to do while Mum catches up with her friend, because every toddler wants to discuss Mary's breast implants with two middle aged women)
Is there some odd, obscure reason that you would never guess, but if you ask, you will find out?

Are your expectations reasonable? Would you apply them to an adult?
I don't like mushy peas. The texture is just wrong to me. But because I am an adult, no one cares. No one thinks to tell me to eat my mushy peas, or praise other adults who eat mushy peas, or talk about how good for me mushy peas are, or tell me how yummy mushy peas are, or that they taste good on the same forkful as potato, or asks "Have you ever tried it before?". So I don't understand where this belief comes from where a child must like EVERY vegetable. If I put carrots, potato, green beans and pumpkin on Sasha's plate and he leaves the pumpkin, is it really a problem? If he says "I don't like pumpkin" do I need to push the issue? Do I need to ignore him and praise everyone else at the table who has eaten pumpkin? No. I can just accept that he doesn't like it because he is a human being with his own tastebuds, and next time I can give him a bigger helping of beans and carrots.

Sorry, I've rambled a bit here, but it just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[yunihara]

I think you just explained it all very well. I am not very articulate at times because English isn't my first language.

I never understood, really, forcing children to eat things they do not like or completely clearing their plate. Its ok for me to not clear my plate if I feel I have eaten enough, therefore I think its ok for my child not to chow down everything. I felt uncomfortable as a child when my grandmother was super aware of how and what I was eating. It stuck with me.

Children are people, you know? Just because they're children doesn't mean they don't deserve to be respected as humans, even if they're behaving badly. I mean, if I do something that annoys my wife, she will let me know. If she were to just ignore my behavior, I would feel hurt. I see a big difference between upsetting a child because you have to punish him and purposefully hurting his feelings, which is what being ignored does to me... I can only imagine how a six year old would feel.

Kids don't have the same capabilities to process feelings and express them as adults do (and even then, some adults struggle with this). Its something you have to teach.

I keep thinking of my 2 year old. When the baby came home, after a few days, he would start shouting and screaming a lot if my wife was feeding the baby. Of course he's acting up. He's 2. He doesn't understand that the baby isn't taking his mother away from him. How would it make him feel if we just ignored him until he behaved how we wanted? He was worried, but doesn't have the ability to tell us that. So we instruct him, and my wife made sure to spend a little extra time with him when she could to show him that the baby wasn't going to take her away. You know what? The shouting and screaming happened for 2 days and 2 days only.

 

[cybele]

That's a really good example actually (and one really relevant to the thread this one originated from), I would say that most of us who have more than one child have experienced that when the new baby comes along. Especially with toddlers who are too young to understand, but older kids aren't exempt from that either, I cannot begin to explain Sunny's behaviour when Sash came along, it was all sorts of off the wall crazy, and she was 8. As convenient as ignoring her would have been, her behaviour toned down once we started to spend some extra one on one time together.

 

[Xero]

Wouldn't let me give you rep Cybele lol. Anyway I completely agree with that very well worded post. Exactly how I feel about it.

 

[mom2many]

I'm tired so forgive me if i seem off track here.....

I do ignore some behaviors. If I have explained to them to quit raising their voices or to quit throwing a fit because it will not get you what you want. I ignore it until the tantrum/yeller is done. I almost always let them know why I am not acknowledging them though.

Dangerous actions are corrected right on the spot, but if I took the time to explain and verbalize every single thing, every time someone did something they know they shouldn't. That would be all I did all day long...literally.

Beyond that I am pretty laid back, don't want to eat dinner: don't. Don't want to wear shoes outside: don't. No coat? Okay. Want to wear your older brothers underwear (clean of course) like a dress? Um, okay I guess.

Beyond, be respectful, talk to me like a person, and I will do the same for you.

 

[pancras]

With my daughter, it is noticeable that, if I've gone through a period where, for whatever reason, I haven't been able to give her the amount of attention she is used to, she starts becoming more clingy and whiny. My response to that is usually to set aside a sizeable chunk of time to spend with her - one on one. Now, some will say I am rewarding her whining with attention and thus will encourage her to whine more, but I don't think that is true. Point number one - needing attention isn't a crime that should be punished. And second - once her "attention bucket" is full again, her whining ceases, without exception.

If your approach works for you or anyone else, then it's a good approach. I think lots of parents fail to do that, or if they do give more attention they end up focusing the attention too much on unwanted behavior.

My belief is this - every child needs a certain amount of attention to make her feel secure, loved and like she is important to her parents.

The method <I>requires</I> that you give attention to good behavior and in particular to the opposite of the bad behavior that you are trying to get rid of and to new good behaviors to make them into habits. The method can and should be used in a manner that does not require an overall reduction of parental attention, so the child still gets all the attention that he or she needs.

So, if I understand correctly, children basically choose their behaviour based on what will get them the most attention.

Children tend to choose to repeat behaviors that are rewarded. Attention is rewarding, but parental attention is not the only thing that is rewarding.

Thus, ignoring something means that that specific behavior doesn't "work", and thus won't be repeated.

If you start ignoring a behavior that has previously been consistently rewarded with attention, <I>the first thing that typically happens is that the behavior will be repeated more often</I>. Typically the behavior will be repeated more often and will become more varied. It’s as if the child is searching the parent for some new button to push to keep getting the rewards that the parent was previously reliably dispensing. But after a day or two the behavior will start dying away. If attention was the only or main thing sustaining the behavior then it will be gone or greatly reduced in a couple of weeks.

Ignoring behavior does not teach anything,…

It is possible give a child many hours or teaching per day without ever once giving bad behavior the immediate reward of parental attention. You can teach the merits of the opposite behavior or other good behaviors. You should give good behaviors immediate attention (catching the child being good) and this is a great time to engage in teaching. If it's necessary to teach in reference to bad behavior, to discuss why the bad behavior is wrong, you can do that any time except as an immediate response to the bad behavior. Set aside a later time to do that teaching. This attention will also be rewarding but it will not train the child to misbehave because it will avoid teaching the child that the parent always acts like a vending machine that dispenses a reward in response to bad behavior.

I don't buy the idea that a normal, happy, secure and well-adjusted child will consider something as unpleasant as being the recipient of a parent's anger preferable to not being the centre of attention every single moment. I don't dispute the fact that children act out for attention. In fact, I did a good deal of that myself as a teen. But here's the thing - my home life was more than a little dysfunctional. I didn't get love and attention from my parents, so I looked for it elsewhere.

There is a neurotransmitter study that found that both negative and positive attention activated the reward centers of the brain, releasing dopamine. I saved a link to the study but I cannot locate it now. The authors speculated that the negative attention was rewarding because the parent was acting just like a vanquished foe would act, so the child gets the message that he outplayed the parent and the child’s brain is doing a victory dance. Perhaps this would be less common in a normal, well-adjusted child. But child that is getting too much parental attention for bad behavior will not appear to be normal or well-adjusted. To even have a normal well-adjusted child, a parent would have to avoid rewarding bad behavior so some extent.

 

[singledad]

&lt;r&gt;&lt;QUOTE author="pancras;141549"&gt;&lt;s&gt;

&lt;/s&gt;If your approach works for you or anyone else, then it's a good approach. I think lots of parents fail to do that, or if they do give more attention they end up focusing the attention too much on unwanted behavior.&lt;e&gt;

&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/QUOTE&gt;
Well, "focusing attention on unwanted behaviour" is what I would call "correcting behaviour" or "teaching" or even "punishing". That is NOT what I mean by giving attention. Obviously, if that is the only "attention" the kid gets, that kid will be starved for proper attention, and will keep repeating whatever get's the parent's attention focused on her. But the way I see it, that isn't because of the attention given to unwanted behaviour. It's because of the lack of just ordinary "You're my kid and I love spending time with you" kind of attention. Maybe that's where the understanding goes missing - this whole concept of "negative attention". You get attention (= good) and you get discipline (= not something my daughter generally enjoys). My daughter does not enjoy being disciplined. It is a very, very poor substitute for spending time with me, having fun. &lt;br/&gt;

&lt;QUOTE author="pancras;141549"&gt;&lt;s&gt;

&lt;/s&gt;The method &lt;I&gt;&lt;s&gt;<I>&lt;/s&gt;requires&lt;e&gt;</I>&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/I&gt; that you give attention to good behavior and in particular to the opposite of the bad behavior that you are trying to get rid of and to new good behaviors to make them into habits. &lt;e&gt;

&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/QUOTE&gt;
Ahh. And we're back here. Here's the thing - I don't want my daughter to display good behaviour out of habit, or to get some kind of subconscious reward. I want her to be able to make good decisions based on and intrinsic sense of right and wrong. Simply put, I want her to have better judgment than me.&lt;br/&gt;

&lt;QUOTE author="pancras;141549"&gt;&lt;s&gt;

&lt;/s&gt;If attention was the only or main thing sustaining the behavior then it will be gone or greatly reduced in a couple of weeks.&lt;e&gt;

&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/QUOTE&gt;
That's the thing - if attention was the only or main thing sustaining the behaviour, it means that the child is attempting to get more attention than the parent is voluntarily giving her - ie. the parent isn't paying enough attention to the child, so the child employs any available tactic to get more. And that is my point, in a nutshell. &lt;br/&gt;

&lt;QUOTE author="pancras;141549"&gt;&lt;s&gt;

&lt;/s&gt;There is a neurotransmitter study that found that both negative and positive attention activated the reward centers of the brain, releasing dopamine. I saved a link to the study but I cannot locate it now. The authors speculated that the negative attention was rewarding because the parent was acting just like a vanquished foe would act, so the child gets the message that he outplayed the parent and the child’s brain is doing a victory dance. &lt;e&gt;

&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/QUOTE&gt;
I'd love to see that study. Really. Because it doesn't make any sense. And when something is so 180 degrees away from anything that makes any kind of sense, it takes more than a mention of a study to convince me. &lt;br/&gt;

&lt;QUOTE author="pancras;141549"&gt;&lt;s&gt;

&lt;/s&gt;Perhaps this would be less common in a normal, well-adjusted child. But child that is getting too much parental attention for bad behavior will not appear to be normal or well-adjusted. To even have a normal well-adjusted child, a parent would have to avoid rewarding bad behavior so some extent.&lt;e&gt;

&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/QUOTE&gt;
Well, yes. If most of the majority of the interaction between parent and child consists of No, Johnny, don't do that! Stop that Suzie! Don't do that, don't do this... well, that poor child cannot feel loved. So yes, that child will probably be acting out. I would say the solution is to give the poor kid some love, not to try to stop the acting out with ignoring...&lt;br/&gt;
&lt;br/&gt;
I suppose we're seeing the same behaviour and the same results from parental interference, but we're interpreting it COMPLETELY differently.&lt;/r&gt;

 

[cybele]

Anyone else getting deja vu?

 

[pancras]

I'd love to see that study. Really. Because it doesn't make any sense. And when something is so 180 degrees away from anything that makes any kind of sense, it takes more than a mention of a study to convince me.

But I think you said it did make sense in a situation where the child was attention deprived? Correct? That is what this study shows:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022096569900356[/url]

 

[singledad]

What are we talking about here - normal kids who display some unwanted behaviour, or attention deprived kids from dysfunctional homes? Because it doesn't make sense that what you're suggesting would work for the former, and with the later, discipline is probably the least important thing to pay attention to

 

[singledad]

Anyone else getting deja vu?

Yup. It's tad ask over again. and our doesn't make any more sense than our did from him.

 

[pancras]

If most of the majority of the interaction between parent and child consists of No, Johnny, don't do that! Stop that Suzie! Don't do that, don't do this... well, that poor child cannot feel loved. So yes, that child will probably be acting out. I would say the solution is to give the poor kid some love, not to try to stop the acting out with ignoring...

So, you don't believe that parents should never decrease the amount of "No, Johnny, don't do that! Stop that Suzie! Don't do that, don't do this..." type behavior as I am advocating?

You believe that they should only increase the amount of loving behavior so that is constitutes the majority of interactions?

I am trying to understand your viewpoint.

 

[pancras]

What are we talking about here - normal kids who display some unwanted behaviour, or attention deprived kids from dysfunctional homes? Because it doesn't make sense that what you're suggesting would work for the former, and with the later, discipline is probably the least important thing to pay attention to

That's a good question. This all started when you took issue to my suggestions on that other thread. Did you think those were those normal kids or not?

 

[cybele]

So, you don't believe that parents should never decrease the amount of "No, Johnny, don't do that! Stop that Suzie! Don't do that, don't do this..." type behavior as I am advocating?

I think it's more along the lines of getting them to understand why you are saying no. If you just wander around saying "No. Stop. Please stop. No" with no reasoning it's not going to do much, and no understanding will come from it, from my view, same goes with ignoring, no understanding of the situation is gained from it, nothing is learned, therefore there is no progression into better behaviour.

I'm very much with SD on the point that I want my kids to make decisions based on their own knowledge of right and wrong, not "what will get me the most attention"?

 

[Xero]

Actually, thank you two for pointing out that this seems very familiar to a previously banned member. I pulled up the control panel and lo and behold, you are both right. This is the same person as "Tadamsmar", both that username and the username "Pancras" come from the same IP address.

Well, it's not the first time I've seen someone get banned and then come back and create a new name. Do you really think that we can't tell, if we found a reason to check? You know what IP addresses are, right?

Can I ask why you would bother going through all that trouble? o_0

 

[cybele]

Pancras was doing so well with it too, he managed to get up to 40-ish posts without being detected.

 

[singledad]

Hah. I thought so. I’ve noticed for a while now that he uses the exact same terminology, he has the same total disregard for why kids do what they do, and the same tendency to try to parent other people’s kids. The broccoli story – which he told before, except then it was his grandkid –was the final confirmation to me. To be perfectly honest, one of the reasons why I started this thread, was in the hope that he would expose himself.

With that said, and just because I know other people will probably read this thread in time –

So, you don’t believe that parents should never decrease the amount of “No, Johnny, don’t do that! Stop that Suzie! Don’t do this, don’t do that...”type behaviour as I am advocating?

You believe that they should only increase the amount of loving behaviour so that is constitutes the majority of interactions?”

Yes and no. The nagging, criticising and constant correcting... meh. They can carry on or stop. It probably doesn’t make any real difference anyway, except perhaps irritate bystanders, themselves, and probably also the kid. It is a technique that rarely accomplishes anything positive. However, stopping it, without replacing it with something more effective, won’t solve anything either. Just stopping the nagging might even make the kid feel even more invisible. Increasing the amount of loving attention – IF the sole reason behind the kid’s acting out was attention deprivation, then yes, that would be the solution. But we don’t know that it is. What I would suggest, is to figure out WHY the kid is acting out, and to address the cause, instead of trying to control the symptoms.

Did you think those were those normal kids or not?

I really don’t know. We never got enough information to even begin to guess why those kids were acting out. Cybele and I were in agreement that, since the behaviour seemed to have started only recently, there is probably some contributing factor we don’t know about. Simply assuming that they aren’t getting enough attention with the amount of information we had, would be jumping to conclusions in a very reckless manner. And I still maintain that no one has the right to try to parent someone else’s kid, even in the smallest way. If there is abuse, you call CPS. If not, you stay out of it.

 

[cybele]

&lt;r&gt;&lt;QUOTE author="singledad;141564"&gt;&lt;s&gt;

&lt;/s&gt; &lt;U&gt;&lt;s&gt;<U>&lt;/s&gt;&lt;B&gt;&lt;s&gt;&lt;/s&gt;And I still maintain that no one has the right to try to parent someone else’s kid&lt;e&gt;&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/B&gt;&lt;e&gt;</U>&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/U&gt;&lt;e&gt;

&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/QUOTE&gt;
&lt;br/&gt;
Big, important thing here.&lt;br/&gt;
&lt;br/&gt;
&lt;br/&gt;
&lt;br/&gt;
I'm going to have to go back and find the Tad broccoli story, I can't remember that one. My personal favourite was the unrelated child in restaurant making noises story, where the child's behaviour was fixed by asking him if he liked movies or something like that.&lt;/r&gt;