Carried over suspension: should I fight it?...

Father_0f_7

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My child is adamant about remaining in school. I talk to her about it <I>every single time</I> something happens, every summer and every winter both at the beginning and end of the break I hound her for several days about it.[/COLOR]
Tough luck. If ANY of my kids acted half as bad as you're making this out to be they would be out of that school before they could put a suspension on them. If they want to go back to a school they SHOW me, PROVE to me they want to go back.

No. I am not taking her to some dishonest mystic with a phony degree in a field that doesn't have enough evidence to even qualify as a pseudo-science to get her words twisted, a label slapped on her and bottle full of drugs pushed at us. It is NOT going to happen. Not now, not later, not EVER.
I'm not sure why you have such a view on psychologists. Yes, there are bad ones. But for every one bad psychologist there are a handful of great ones.

Therapy DOES help people. It has helped my family tremendously and in numerous ways. It's helped me (alcoholism, drug addiction, anger issues, trust, along with many other things.) My son (alcoholism/drug addiction), my other son (abandonment, fear), my youngest son (depression, anxiety, suicide), and my grandson (recently diagnosed with Intermittent Explosive Disorder).

And my youngest son's former psychologist STILL calls to make sure he's alright, and to offer advice...We haven't been paying him for years. Your idea that all they do is care about money and pretend to care about the patient is absolutely absurd.
 

Avianmosquito

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Father_0f_7 said:
I don't post here that often anymore simply because I haven't had the time. But I still come on, almost every day, to look at the recent posts.
I'm not sure what to do with this information.

I am making time to respond today because this thread, and your inability to REALLY help your daughter is making me furious. (Even thought I'm almost certain more than half of what you are saying is true)
Nobody is happy with it. Sam wants to solve her own problems, but can't. Her mother wants to help her personally, but doesn't have a clue how to do it. I want help for her, but don't think a therapist will work.

Boeing has AMAZING medical benefits. OUTSTANDING. They cover mental health. The excuse of not having the coverage is invalid now.
My grandmother doesn't know what she's talking about? Shocking. Truly, I am shocked. I'll take it up with her.

If I can get them to cover it, I'll try it out. But notice how I'm saying "TRY." If it doesn't work out, I'm not going to keep taking her. I'm also going to be right there with her for the first couple sessions, because I do NOT trust those people any farther than I could throw them. (Actually, I could throw them quite far... "Any farther than Ryan Seacrest could throw them"? Maybe "Shirley Temple"? I don't know, I might have to think on that.)
 
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Father_0f_7

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I'm not sure what to do with this information.
Information wasn't for you. It was for the regulars...my friends.

I want help for her, but don't think a therapist will work.
It never hurts to try.

My grandmother doesn't know what she's talking about? Shocking. Truly, I am shocked. I'll take it up with her.
You don't seem to trust anyone so I'm not sure why you trusted her with something as important as coverage for your daughter. The correct information is a browser window away.
 

Avianmosquito

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Father_0f_7 said:
Tough luck. If ANY of my kids acted half as bad as you're making this out to be they would be out of that school before they could put a suspension on them. If they want to go back to a school they SHOW me, PROVE to me they want to go back.
I'm not sure that's a positive quality, but alright, Sir, I'll just accept that premise for the time being.

I'm not sure why you have such a view on psychologists. Yes, there are bad ones. But for every one bad psychologist there are a handful of great ones.
I was taken to six psychologists in my childhood. My ex was taken to nine. Mine ranged from "condescending and completely unhelpful" to "dishonest and manipulative", my ex's ranged from "inept and unintentionally detrimental" to "purposefully and directly malicious" and even had one attempt to seduce her <I>two months after her parents died</I>, when she was <I>nine years old</I>. 9-15 people, all in this field, our entire sample size, ranging from dead neutral to all capital letters EVIL.

Therapy DOES help people. It has helped my family tremendously and in numerous ways. It's helped me (alcoholism, drug addiction, anger issues, trust, along with many other things.) My son (alcoholism/drug addiction), my other son (abandonment, fear), my youngest son (depression, anxiety, suicide), and my grandson (recently diagnosed with Intermittent Explosive Disorder).
Sugar pills help some people overcome their addictions. Does that make the sugar medicine?

And my youngest son's former psychologist STILL calls to make sure he's alright, and to offer advice...We haven't been paying him for years. Your idea that all they do is care about money and pretend to care about the patient is absolutely absurd.
You're forgetting it's still a job, which they are getting paid for. Even if not all of them go for it, at least not completely, the temptation to maintain their stream of revenue is very strong. It's like expecting somebody with an infinite supply of beer to drink responsibly: sometimes, they will take it slow and mind their health, but most of the time they'll drink themselves to death.

Actually, better metaphor. It's like giving somebody a single project, an hourly wage and no supervision and expecting them to finish the job as best as they can. There's so much benefit to taking a dive there (less effort, longer employment, better job security) that it's unreasonable to expect them to do their job efficiently. And it's not like anybody is going to bust them anyway, so what do they have to lose?
 
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Avianmosquito

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Father_0f_7 said:
You don't seem to trust anyone so I'm not sure why you trusted her with something as important as coverage for your daughter. The correct information is a browser window away.
Sir, this is my grandmother. When my mother threw me away, twice, my grandmother took me in and raised me. She's the one who initially covered my health, using a Boeing plan, so I figured she would know. I don't know if Boeing covering psych is recent or what, but she honestly thought it didn't, and she paid my psych bills out of pocket during my childhood.
 

cybele

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It means that everyone has a few things happen to them in their lifetime, but you, your daughter and your ex seem to have had everything happen to them. That's pretty rare, it's amazing that you all managed to end up together.
 

Father_0f_7

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We dont pay him. It isn't his job anymore. He know's we aren't going back to him no matter what he does. We like him, Billy doesn't. They don't connect, Billy doesn't trust him. He still cares, he still calls.

As far as sugar pills go? You know what, sometimes your problems are all in your mind. I'm not denying that. But I can tell you with 90% certainty that sugar pills a(outside of research studies that patients have knowingly signed up for) are minimally used and only as a last resort.

I've been going to psychologist for 30 years,if not longer. I've been to dozens of offices, and doctors, and yeah some of them were quacks but I'm not naive enough to judge an entire profession on 12 (that I can remember) psychologists.

Uh-huh. And I'm supposed to take that as a positive quality?
That I do my best to try and not let my kids ruin their childhood/lives. Yeah. Kids don't always get what they want. When they do someting (numerous times) parents arent supposed to just say "but they want to be there so okay".
 
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Avianmosquito

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cybele said:
It means that everyone has a few things happen to them in their lifetime, but you, your daughter and your ex seem to have had everything happen to them. That's pretty rare, it's amazing that you all managed to end up together.
Sam:
I can't argue.

Myself:
I adopted a child with a tendency to get into trouble. Outside of that, all there is was my precocious activities in elementary and middle school and my general hostility in high school. Both of those are well within the standard of deviation.

My ex:
Her parents died, she was put into foster for a while, and sent to a bunch of crappy, state-funded therapists. She kept switching because of conflicts with them, and this all stopped when a family friend reached age of majority and adopted her. There is a direct causal link between those things.
 
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Avianmosquito

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Father_0f_7 said:
We dont pay him. It isn't his job anymore. He know's we aren't going back to him no matter what he does. We like him, Billy doesn't. They don't connect, Billy doesn't trust him. He still cares, he still calls.
Sir, you homed in on one thing and ignored the rest. I was explaining why so many were bad, not saying that <I>all</I> were. (I may feel that is very close to true, but it is not what I said.) Some people resist such temptation, some others fall prey to it but still have enough compassion to become attached. Either one explains that behaviour.

As far as sugar pills go? You know what, sometimes your problems are all in your mind. I'm not denying that. But I can tell you with 90% certainty that sugar pills a(outside of research studies that patients have knowingly signed up for) are minimally used and only as a last resort.
Sugar pills outperformed morphine when the subjects were told they were taking actual painkillers. The placebo effect is POWERFUL, and it's 90% of the reason psychologists work.

Have an article, sir.

I've been going to psychologist for 30 years,if not longer. I've been to dozens of offices, and doctors, and yeah some of them were quacks but I'm not naive enough to judge an entire profession on 12 (that I can remember) psychologists.
Sir, if there was a single good one in my experience or my ex's, I would agree with you. But this is a significant sample size, and a 100% failure rate within it. Further, the people who were present when I were a child are likely still present within the field. My last psych appointment wasn't even a decade ago. I live 20km from where I grew up, it's the same pool. Are you really going to argue that my concerns about her running into either the same kind of people or even the same exact people are invalid with these circumstances?

That I do my best to try and not let my kids ruin their childhood/lives. Yeah. Kids don't always get what they want. When they do someting (numerous times) parents arent supposed to just say "but they want to be there so okay".
Yeah... I edited that later to make it sound less rude. It wasn't intended to be.
 
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Father_0f_7

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Yeah... I edited that later to make it sound less rude. It wasn't intended to be.
Fair enough. I guess. But I am still unable to comprehend why she is still in a school setting when obviously (socially) it isnt working.

I do however want to understand, would you be willing to explain in a different way? I know you have tried to explain why she's still there but I just don't get it.

[Edit]: I just read the last two sentences the way I imagine other people will and it could come off as a bit sarcastic. I assure you it isn't meant to be and is a sincere request.
 

Avianmosquito

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Father_0f_7 said:
Fair enough. I guess. But I am still unable to comprehend why she is still in a school setting when obviously (socially) it isnt working.

I do however want to understand, would you be willing to explain in a different way? I know you have tried to explain why she's still there but I just don't get it.
She has 12 friends and 18 enemies. Her friend/enemy ratio is still much better than mine was. (In middle school, I had 6 friends and 10 enemies. In high school, I had 2 friends and 8 enemies.) I was willing to put up with my enemies to be around my friends, and I understand that for her as well.

As for her remaining, keep in mind that she has had a total of four school years here in this district. During that time, yes, she has been in eleven fights, suspended eight times (the other four were in our old district) for inappropriate physical contact and she has assaulted faculty three times (still don't think two of those really count) and seen six other suspensions, but that's a total of 28 in four years. 7/year. A school year is what, 180 school days? Even with the time taken out for suspensions, she's still there about 120-150 days each year to get in trouble, and only gets in trouble on seven, one of which is always towards the very end. That means 94-95% of the time she's fine. This is poor, but not too poor for her to make her own decision.

For her reasoning all I can do is speculate. I feel that she wants somebody in power to notice these things, but it's also likely that she just wants them to expel her so she isn't "running away" or "letting them win", however much sense that makes. She might also just like getting up in the morning and going to school. I don't agree with her, and will continue to try and convince her otherwise, but as long as her days present are a solid majority satisfactory (I don't have a set number, but 90% sounds good) I'll leave it up to her.

She's a smart girl, and she knows what she's doing. She also knows why, even if she can't put it into words. She isn't making an unacceptably poor decision (say, lighting herself on fire, dancing in the road, sleeping with a grown man, doing heroin... I should note she hasn't done any of those) and I can see some reasoning behind it, so even though I disagree I'm not going to force her. Why? Because orders are like curse words. The less often you use them, the more power they have when you do.

I know Sam, and I know what works with her. My methods are not chosen purely out of respect for her rights, although that is a part of it, it's also to preserve the power of my words. I let her make her own decisions, and only intervene when absolutely necessary. As a result, she associates my intervention with serious danger. If I give an order, she will immediately follow it and wait for an explanation. In the short term, she does not argue with me and does not fight with me. (And with a girl who does not follow orders from <I>anybody else</I>, and a man whose orders <I>nobody else</I> will follow, that's saying something.) She gives me the benefit of the doubt on my orders and assumes that I see something she doesn't. She then waits for me to explain it to her when I have the chance, although I'm certain she thinks about it until then, and once I explain it we discuss it and come to an agreement. This is also the reason for my extreme honesty when communicating with her.

This is better for three reasons:
1. I know 100% that she <I>will</I>, at least in the short term, follow any direct order given.
2. She <I>will </I>listen to me when I speak to her next, with a clear and open mind.
3. This <I>will </I>result in a dialogue, we <I>will </I>negotiate and we <I>will </I>come to an acceptable compromise. It might not always be exactly what either of us wants, but it will be something we can both accept.

I display power by not using it. I maintain her respect and trust by respecting and trusting her, and I do not desensitise her to my commands by perpetually barking orders at her. This way, she responds better when I need her to.

The only issue I've <I>ever</I> had with this system is with her sleeping in my bed, and that's because when it comes to point 3 I don't have a leg to stand on. I have no practical reason to present to her, other than her getting too large to fit with me. Even then, she knows that's not a serious problem and she's not too large <I>yet</I>. I have no moral argument either, all I have is my own personal discomfort with such an old child sleeping with her father, which we both know doesn't compare to her personal discomfort with sleeping alone. And while you might think I could just give an order and go to bed, this system relies on the dialogue at the end. If that never comes, she eventually makes up her own mind without my input. And, as I said, I don't have a leg to stand on here and we both know it.

Also, scholastically, she's fine. One of her teachers (who is also her only ally in the faculty) goes around and forces her other teachers to cough up her assignments when she's suspended. She does them at home fairly quickly, and although there were two teachers last year she still wouldn't work for, she passed every other class. The homework portion of her grade has been 95%+ in every class she was willing to work in since we moved, her classwork portion 90%+ except in science, where it has always at least been 80%+. (It's not her weak subject, she just can't do labs at home.) The test portion was less so, but that's due to missing tests rather than failing them.

[Edit]: I just read the last two sentences the way I imagine other people will and it could come off as a bit sarcastic. I assure you it isn't meant to be and is a sincere request.
I assumed this. As long as you give me the benefit of the doubt, I will do the same for you. I just wish I could say the same about the rest of the world.
 
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singledad

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avianmoscuto said:
She was ONE YEAR OLD when I got her. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t remember it.
If you are to be believed, she was physically developed enough to both run and talk, and emotionally mature enough to be clearly bisexual. Yet she was too young to realise that her parents (however useless – she didn’t know better) have suddenly disappeared out of her life? Besides, such a big trauma at such a young age would have influenced her emotional development, regardless of whether or not she remembers it now. I certainly explains her clinginess, and her fear of sleeping alone (although that probably also has a lot to do with the unresolved trauma from being sexually abused at a very young age).

avianmoscuto said:
Nobody things it’s fine and dandy
Funny you should say that, after spending most of your posts in this thread trying to convince us that she’s ok. :rolleyes:

avianmoscuto said:
She isn’t making an unacceptably poor decision
Ah, ok. This is where we differ.

To me, assaulting people, unless in self-defence (as in they threw the first punch, or pulled out a weapon, not they were “mean”), spitting at people, giving blowjobs in the bathroom at school (Even if you’re 18), etc is unacceptably poor decisions. I would, of course, be lenient at first, given that you can’t expect a 12-year-old to have an adult’s conflict resolution skills, but I would do everything in my power to teach her to do better, and that would probably include letting her feel the consequences of her actions. If I failed, I would both remove her from the situation and call in professional help. See, I DON’T think that such overtly sexual behaviour is either normal or healthy in such a young child (of any sex or gender). But once again, it is a fairly clear consequence of having her sexual development triggered at a far too young age (4), way before she was emotionally mature enough to handle it.

avianmoscuto said:
There is nothing I am going to say that is going to convince you that she isn’t completely doomed or even consider it for a moment.
She isn’t necessarily doomed – there is still time to help her. But the route she is on now is leading straight towards juvi. If it was my child, I would not be looking for excuses, I’d be looking for solutions.

Finally, I just want to add that none of the solution offered would require commands, or any display of power. A parent can have authority without “barking orders”. In fact, barking orders at any one – child or adult –usually only serves to destroy respect and undermine authority. There are other, far more respectful and effective ways in which to instruct. ;)
 

Avianmosquito

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singledad said:
If you are to be believed, she was physically developed enough to both run and talk, and emotionally mature enough to be clearly bisexual. Yet she was too young to realise that her parents (however useless – she didn’t know better) have suddenly disappeared out of her life?
Let me put it this way, then. Her parents were around so little that Sam had already started parentalizing me before I got custody of her. I was only her babysitter biweekly at best. I, being there twice a week at the most and only for a couple hours at a time, was the one she looked at as her father figure. Think for a minute about what that says about her biological father, who lived in the same house as her.

Now, answer me, how could this change of custody have possibly not have been a positive influence in her life?

Besides, such a big trauma at such a young age would have influenced her emotional development, regardless of whether or not she remembers it now. I certainly explains her clinginess, and her fear of sleeping alone (although that probably also has a lot to do with the unresolved trauma from being sexually abused at a very young age).
If I were to pick a cause for the "sleeping alone" thing, I would pick her first year of life. She slept alone every night in her first year, when she lived in a house where nobody took care of or even hardly noticed her. The next year, her crib was right up next to my bed, and now there was somebody actually caring for her.

The following year, she didn't sleep in a crib anymore but it was still a single-bedroom apartment so she had to sleep with me. That was also the year my ex joined us, and she didn't have to be alone or with a stranger anymore. Then in the fourth year, my ex and I had a falling out and I had to work more, so I had to hire babysitters. I also didn't make it home every night until long after she was asleep, because my shifts were informal and a bit nutso. That was the year she was raped, at a time when she was left to sleep alone. It's also the year she was shot, at a time when she was left to sleep alone.

Later on, her mother and I got back together, she didn't sleep alone anymore, and our family was overall happy again. Then when I moved, her mother took her, and then she's sleeping alone again and her home life is a long, miserable contest of wills with her mother.

I don't think there's any debate as to why she hates sleeping alone. (Why a friend will suffice instead of her always requiring a parent, that I don't really get.)

Ah, ok. This is where we differ.
That is not an uncommon occurance.

To me, assaulting people, unless in self-defence (as in they threw the first punch, or pulled out a weapon, not they were “mean”),
The other students did hit her first. As for the teacher, he pushed for the entire first semester. I'm not saying I agree with her striking him, but I understand why she lost her temper in that situation and so should you. If somebody in a position of authority harassed you to no end every weekday for four months, can you honestly say that at no point you would lose your temper with them?

spitting at people,
See above.

giving blowjobs <U>in the bathroom at school</U> (Even if you’re 18),
If it wasn't for this, this line would have made me rather cross.

etc is unacceptably poor decisions.
Her decision to remain in school is not unacceptably poor because these things do not happen on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis. They aren't really rare, but they aren't a perpetual issue. Most of her issues are shortly before summer break, shortly after it, and shortly before and after winter break. Why? Probably the breaks themselves, or in the latter case the holidays within it.

I would, of course, be lenient at first, given that you can’t expect a 12-year-old to have an adult’s conflict resolution skills, but I would do everything in my power to teach her to do better, and that would probably include letting her feel the consequences of her actions.
There's no point in letting somebody "see the consequences" of their actions when they're already "seeing the consequences" of other people's actions and the consequences of actions that didn't even occur, were massively misconstrued or couldn't possibly be helped.

If I failed, I would both remove her from the situation and call in professional help.
What IS it with you people and trusting strangers alone with your children? I will <I>never</I> understand that.

See, I DON’T think that such overtly sexual behaviour is either normal or healthy in such a young child (of any sex or gender).
She's twelve. She's an adolescent. She is in puberty. She has breasts, pubic hair, a menstrual cycle and everything else a grown woman has save one pair of molars. WHY is it so hard to believe that she would have the same urges as a grown woman as well?

But once again, it is a fairly clear consequence of having her sexual development triggered at a far too young age (4), way before she was emotionally mature enough to handle it.
Except that it clearly isn't.

1. If you're using the time she pretty much outright states her sexuality as evidence of her rape "triggering" her sexual development, you should know that her statement predates the rape by at least two months. Clearly, they are not related.
2. Her behaviour was rather decidedly inappropriate on several occasions before that, and that started with a completely accidental discovery. I really don't want to go into the details myself until she gets home this evening, because I only caught the tail end of it, my only role was to separate them, and I have to take her word on that which transpired prior to my arrival. (And trust that her memory from when she was 2 is fairly solid, which I have reason to doubt.)
3. Her sexual behaviour now is within the standard of deviation for her age group. A lot of girls start to do things like that when the hormones hit, most just know better than to do it where they are likely to be caught, such as at school with a boy they don't know very well.

Finally, I just want to add that none of the solution offered would require commands, or any display of power. A parent can have authority without “barking orders”. In fact, barking orders at any one – child or adult –usually only serves to destroy respect and undermine authority. There are other, far more respectful and effective ways in which to instruct. ;)
Our relationship is built on mutual respect, not authority. I want it to stay that way. If I make a decision for her, <I>that</I> undermines the respect our relationship is built upon. It might be more pleasant to hear an order spoken than barked, but that does not change what it is at its core.

I know I can convince her to try out a couple therapy sessions, under the premise that it can be terminated at any time. I might be able to convince her to try cyber schooling this year, under the premise that she can decide at the end of the year whether to return to physical school or remain in cyberschool, but at this point I doubt it. I can't convince her to stop her "activities" with boys and girls, but after this most recent incident I got her to be smart about it.

She isn’t necessarily doomed – there is still time to help her. But the route she is on now is leading straight towards juvi. <U>If it was my child, I would</U> not be looking for excuses, I’d be looking for solutions.
I am out of patience with this. I am going to be very plain here and you are not going to like what I have to say, but please note that this is not personal and I am being as polite as I can be and still make myself understood. If that is going to be a problem, please read no further and never speak to me again.

You do not know my child or what works with her. You do not know the other people involved or the environment they are involved in. You do not know my location, or the services available. You do not have my financial constraints, nor do you know how to live with them. Even if you did, you are not and never have been in these circumstances, nor have you ever made these decisions.

If any of these things enter into your decision making, you cannot possibly know what you would do, so please stop trying to tell me.
 
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singledad

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You’re right.

Your daughter has never been traumatised.

Being sexually aware enough to know that you’re bisexual before you are old enough to go to school, is completely normal.

Rape does not have any long-term, emotional or psychological consequences.

Sexual play at the age of 5 is totally normal and healthy, especially since she’s now reached puberty, a mere 7 years later.

12 year olds don’t need parents, they are completely capable of making their own life decision. Friends who clothe them, feed them, house them and respect them are enough.

Lack of money is a perfectly valid excuse not to get a child who had been raped professional support, even if your insurance covers mental health. And of course, expensive psychiatrists are the only type of professional help that exists. There are no such thing as rape crisis centres, women’s centres, child welfare organisations, ...

And “Professional help” is a euphemism for leaving your child alone with strangers.

Happy now?
 

Xero

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Sorry, I really was done with this, because it's all too weird for me, but I have to comment on a couple of points:

Okay, so here we have year 1:

Avianmosquito said:
She slept alone every night in her first year, when she lived in a house where nobody took care of or even hardly noticed her.
And here we have year 2:

Avianmosquito said:
The next year, her crib was right up next to my bed, and now there was somebody actually caring for her.
And here we have year 3:

Avianmosquito said:
The following year, she didn't sleep in a crib anymore but it was still a single-bedroom apartment so she had to sleep with me. That was also the year my ex joined us, and she didn't have to be alone or with a stranger anymore.
During which you acquired a wonderful new girlfriend, who moved in with you and forced your 3 year old to suck on her boobs until she was properly lactating and producing an appropriate supply for a 3 year old who was presumably using bottles or sippy cups up until this point? Ummm haha.... Please explain. I'm so curious. Either you guys were being real sickos, or there is some really strange and unlikely explanation for this (or you're full of it).

Avianmosquito said:
What IS it with you people and trusting strangers alone with your children? I will <I>never</I> understand that.
(Edited to also add - I have seen a therapist myself when I was young, as well as a few of my siblings, and other children I have known, and they were never alone with the therapist unless the child requested it because they didn't want the parent to hear something. So I have no idea what kind of creeps you were seeing or why they worked like that, but that's unusual.)

Says the guy who left his infant daughter with random guys he trusted enough not to RAPE her:

Avianmosquito said:
Then in the fourth year, my ex and I had a falling out and I had to work more, so I had to hire babysitters. I also didn't make it home every night until long after she was asleep, because my shifts were informal and a bit nutso. That was the year she was raped, at a time when she was left to sleep alone. It's also the year she was shot, at a time when she was left to sleep alone.
I have never in my life used a "babysitter", in fact I haven't been away from my children much in general, and if I have they were with my husband or a VERY close, TRUSTED family member ONLY (my mom, his mom etc).

Also about this quote, so your gf was out of the picture for a year, not breastfeeding her, and then came back later and started up again until she was six?

Avianmosquito said:
She's twelve. She's an adolescent. She is in puberty. She has breasts, pubic hair, a menstrual cycle and everything else a grown woman has save one pair of molars. WHY is it so hard to believe that she would have the same urges as a grown woman as well?
You know what, you keep saying this is normal, and that is the biggest sack of crap I've ever heard. Sorry, but I was 11/12 once, and where I will admit to having feelings and curiosity about my body and even sex, I would NEVER have considered acting on them. I knew very well that it was wrong, unacceptable, age-inappropriate behavior - and it wasn't something that I even felt like I "wanted" to do! Curious and thoughtful about it yes, but I had a brain and an understanding of what is socially acceptable and what isn't. None of my peers were doing any of that, nobody got in trouble for sexual stuff until they were at least 13/14 and then it was very rare and we were all shocked to hear about it. At more like 15/16 and up, that was when it became more of a regular thing, we were pretty much all acting on those urges by that age. That's pretty normal. I have three younger sisters, and they would all say pretty much the same thing about the way they grew up and felt about sexual stuff. We did not all have the same perfect childhood either, so don't group us together, to be brief about it myself and one of my sisters was adopted, the third was my mother's biological child, and the fourth was my father's biological child (also I have two brothers, one adopted and one who is my father's biological child).

Sorry, but what she is doing, and has been doing, is not "normal". It's not totally crazy or unheard of, but it is very "unusual", certainly not an everyday occurrence, and you need to recognize that.

Sorry to be blunt, but can I ask how old you are?
 
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singledad

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Xero said:
(Edited to also add - I have seen a therapist myself when I was young, as well as a few of my siblings, and other children I have known, and they were never alone with the therapist unless the child requested it because they didn't want the parent to hear something. So I have no idea what kind of creeps you were seeing or why they worked like that, but that's unusual.)
True. When I took my DD to a therapist after her mom died, the only times I wasn't in the room was when I she wanted to see how my daughter reacted to certain things in my absence, and then I watched on CCTV.

This whole thread is making me sick, to be honest. I don't think I can read any more in here. I can't stand it.

I hope someone helps your daughter before she gets into life-changing trouble.
 

cybele

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Avianmosquito said:
She's twelve. She's an adolescent. She is in puberty. She has breasts, pubic hair, a menstrual cycle and everything else a grown woman has save one pair of molars. WHY is it so hard to believe that she would have the same urges as a grown woman as well?
Well, because she is not a grown woman.

Here is where I am coming from with this.
- I was once a 12 year old girl and I am now a grown woman
- I have raised a 12yr old girl who is now a grown woman
- I am very close to a niece who was once a 12yr old girl and is now a woman
- I have two girls, one on either side of 12 (well, for two more weeks at least, then I have a 12yr old and a 14yr old)
- I am very close to two nieces who are both 12yr old girls

I have a little bit of experience with 12yr old girls. Yes all 12yr old girls are different and mature at different rates but there isn't one who is hormonally, emotionally, mentally or sexually where a full grown woman is. To label a 12yr old as being at that point is selling her short because, you know what, 12yr old have it pretty rough in terms of changes that are happening to them, once you hit adulthood it's a lot easier.

At 12 your hormones are all over the shop. Sometimes the strangest things make you cry, sometimes every single person you walk past is the most attractive person you have ever seen, sometimes your body does these things that you never knew were things, sometimes you feel really self conscious and you don't know why, sometimes you get urges BUT you lack the mental capacity to act on them in a manner that is beneficial to you, you think you have the mental capacity, but in hindsight you don't and if those around you shake it off and pretend that you have it, then you end up screwing yourself over. It's the opposite extreme to pretending that those urges don't exist and an extreme is never beneficial.

Now I don't know how it is for men, I haven't personally experienced that, so I can't speak on that, but the sexual urges a developing girl has are not the same sexual urges a woman has. The teenage ones are all over the place and ruled by crazy hormones and frankly, when you do act on them they are no where as fulfilling as adult ones, simply because they are crazy teenage hormone urges. In hindsight, the significant improvement that comes along there is probably just a reward for sticking out the hormonal shitstorm that is puberty.

Oh, by the way, your breasts and menstrual cycle also suck as a teenager. Another one of those hindsight things.

So no, I don't believe that she has the same urges as a grown woman.