Hi. I don't have kids and am not around them often, so I'm sometimes confused about my niece's behavior. Is it OK if I post questions here and get some perspective from those of you with experience?
Child-free auntie has behavior questions...
- Thread starter Sue Barashi
- Start date
OK, here goes:
Can you tell me at what age I can hope for my niece to:
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That last item is especially important to me. Niece cooperates well with other adults, but when her mother (my sister) enters the picture, it's a complete Jekyll/Hyde switch. Makes for tension at family gatherings.
Thanks!
Can you tell me at what age I can hope for my niece to:
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<LI>- chew with her mouth closed?</LI>
<LI> - wipe her bum well enough that she's not stinky at the end of the day?</LI>
<LI> - comply with requests/instructions from her mom with a minimum of whining, foot-dragging, outright refusal, or physical walking/running away?</LI>
That last item is especially important to me. Niece cooperates well with other adults, but when her mother (my sister) enters the picture, it's a complete Jekyll/Hyde switch. Makes for tension at family gatherings.
Thanks!
<t>My niece is 7 years old—turns 8 and starts 2nd grade next month. <br/>
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This is part of my confusion: I don't know when to expect her to grow out of that mega-defiance stage. But I hope it's soon.</t>
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This is part of my confusion: I don't know when to expect her to grow out of that mega-defiance stage. But I hope it's soon.</t>
Sue Barashi said:
In my opinion, your 7 year old (almost 8), should already be able to chew with her mouth closed. This particular action requires more work on the mother's part to instill proper manners and expectations during meal time.
In regards to bathroom hygiene, she is obviously currently physically capable of doing this action herself, it seems it just requires a more thorough effort each time, which again is more on the mother to instruct/guide her to do this. Although kids are going to be stinky no matter what, it is important that she learn to clean as well as possible down there to avoid any infections rash or other health problems.
Your last bullet point seems to be kids being kids and acting up...again this seems to be more of an issue of parental teaching what is expected of their behavior and working towards that goal. I don't think anyone can tell you an exact time for when to expect the defiance to stop.
<t>Hmm. On the behavior issue: The tension between my niece and her mother is constant—at least when I'm around them, which is just every few months. If they're not fighting, they will be in a moment. <br/>
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I'm uncomfortable with the constant wrangling—it's like going to dinner with a couple that bickers constantly. Is there anything I can do to help improve the situation? Do I just lack the "parent" filter that allows me to ignore such things?</t>
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I'm uncomfortable with the constant wrangling—it's like going to dinner with a couple that bickers constantly. Is there anything I can do to help improve the situation? Do I just lack the "parent" filter that allows me to ignore such things?</t>
Well it's different for everyone but one could definitely assume that by 7 to 8 years old she should be able to complete all of those behavioral tasks. She should definitely be able to chew with her mouth closed. Maybe having a conversation with her mother about these issues your niece has would be helpful. At least laying down some guidelines for when she comes to visit you, letting her know the behaviors that are expected when she is at your house.
I think Mom needs to be addressing these things with a little more enthusiasm. Maybe you could tell Mommy about this great site you found for parents!
OK, so here's another thing I, as a non-parent, am ignorant about.
I don't know how my sister and her husband handle disciplining my niece on regular days, but when they're visiting me or I'm visiting them, Niece experiences no consequences for bad behavior. Well, there's the verbal sparring matches with her mother, but the kid usually wins those because her mother gives up.
So my question is, is "no consequences" a currently preferred parenting style? Does this approach offer advantages for the child? for the parents?
Thanks some more! I appreciate your insights.
I don't know how my sister and her husband handle disciplining my niece on regular days, but when they're visiting me or I'm visiting them, Niece experiences no consequences for bad behavior. Well, there's the verbal sparring matches with her mother, but the kid usually wins those because her mother gives up.
So my question is, is "no consequences" a currently preferred parenting style? Does this approach offer advantages for the child? for the parents?
Thanks some more! I appreciate your insights.
There is a lot of confusion and definition of what "consequences" means when it comes to parenting - for some, it's the same as "punishment", for some others they distinguish between natural or artificial consequences, and for some others like me, it's not the consequence that matter, it's the reparation of it.Sue Barashi said:
But one thing is very clear across all parenting knowledge: permissive parenting - the parenting style in which children have no limits and no boundaries and can do whatever they want - is <I>not</I> working well on the long run.
Since you don't offer an actual example of a concrete "bad" behavior, I can't really comment more than that.
You did however mention verbal sparring - which can mean a lot of possibly negative verbal things from the child's parents - and you also said earlier that she seems always defiant. So to me, this is an indication of a child that is insecure in her attachment. More than that, I cannot say with the information I have so far, I don't have enough to diagnose the communication patterns in the family.
Thanks for such a quick reply. I can clarify a little.parentastic said:
Consequences: My niece does not lose toys, treats, or privileges when she continues "bad" behavior after a verbal warning or two. So I don't know what her parents do to convince her to stop undesired actions or start desired ones.
"Bad" behavior I've observed would be the verbal defiance or ignoring Mom; walking/running way when asked to come to Mom; throwing things (not hurling violently, but tossing things not meant for tossing); jumping on furniture; getting an instruction from Mom and immediately starting a different activity and demanding to finish it before doing what Mom said; interrupting conversations; or grabbing things from other people.
So you see, this is why I was asking what "bad behavior" means - we all have different definition of what is a "bad" or a "good", acceptable, or unacceptable behavior.Sue Barashi said:
Now, in my parenting workshop, my philosophy is that children are young people in development and they do what their brain tells them to do in order to develop properly. As Noamie Aldort says, "the child is always right", in the sense that a "misbehavior" is rather a behavior aimed at satisfying an internal and fundamental need, that the adult deems unacceptable. So the parent's role is to coach and help a child finds alternative ways to meet their fundamental needs, while respecting other people's (including parent's) needs.
So if I look at your list, I don't see a lot of "bad" behavior, unless you see children as creature who are supposed to shut up and obey without asking any question and who are supposed to act "mature and grown up" (calm, not making noises, etc.) Now if that's the case and this is your definition of a child, then I can't help you.
It's like when you see a parent say "Stop acting so childish!" well.. kids will be kids.
If you are open to look at this differently, however, here are some insights:
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<LI>- Ignoring Mom: If a parent keeps "nagging" a child constantly, then the child learns to "tune off" the parent and ignore them. Which is perfectly understandable, many adults do the same with their bosses or with similar situations: it's a natural defense mechanism, just like when we are bothered by the sound of the air conditioning and then after a while, you get accustomed to it and you don't hear it anymore.</LI>
To really get a child's attention:
Don't yell or raise your voice. Stop what you are doing and go to the child. Touch the child's shoulder as you gently sit down next to the child, in order to be at eye level. Lock your eyes with her eyes. Smile. Say something that echoes with her current emotion, such as: "Hey, you seem to have a lot of fun with this toy!". THEN you say your piece: "But it's making a lot of noise and it is hurting my ears." Now you have all the child's attention and your intervention will be effective.
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<LI>- walking/running way when asked to come to Mom: If Mom has a habit of nagging, the minute she calls, her child thinks "There she goes again!" and of course, would rather be somewhere else... which can become quite dangerous when outside or in a shopping mall, for instance.</LI>
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<LI>- tossing things not meant for tossing); jumping on furniture: children are very active, they need to spend their energy. She is not jumping on furniture to be annoying, she probably needs alternative ventures to draw her energy. She probably need more walks to the park and more physical activities. As for tossing, depends on the situation: she may be developing her gross motor skills, or she may be feeling strong emotions (like anger) and expressing it with throwing, it's all in the context. The question is <I>why is she acting a certain way</I>, rather than focus on the behavior. Otherwise you are only working on stopping the symptom, rather than providing her with what she needs.</LI>
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<LI>- getting an instruction from Mom and immediately starting a different activity and demanding to finish it before doing what Mom said: Again, depends on context. To expect children to stop everything they do without warning and jump to execute an order is both unrealistic and unfair for the child. But if she has been told in advance ("In 10 minutes we have to take the bath!" then "In 5 minutes, we have to take the bath!" then "Okay, we take the bath in a minute now, so let's put the toy away together okay?") and she then refuses to take the bath and starts another activity, then you need to have a talk with her to discuss why she doesn't want to take the bath? etc. etc.</LI>
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<LI>- grabbing things from other people: depending on their age, children do not yet have the ability to understand that other people feel differently than they do. Perspective taking is developed late in childhood, before that the brain is naturally egocentric. So the parents must be patient and ask the child to sit down and discuss with them how the other people might feel when she does that? and how she can repair (apologizing to the other person, landing that person another of her toy, etc).</LI>
Finally:
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<LI>- verbal defiance: it's a common defense mechanism when the fundamental need of Independence has not been fully met. The child's brain is wired to seek reassurance and care when needed, but also to seek to act and discover the world alone when it feels safe. If the child feels constantly nagged and controlled, she will naturally resist and become defiant because that's what her brain needs in order to build a separate identity from her parents. The more you listen (real listening, not just hearing) to a child's underlying needs and emotions, and the less defiant they become.</LI>
Now...about nagging. Please watch the mom song, a really funny song (but actually, really not that funny if you think of it), in which the mom compressed all she says to her child in a day in 2 and a half minutes. And ask yourself: how would YOU feel if you had to hear all this? Wouldn't you get defiant too? Hearing this song really offers an interesting perspective in how it is perceived from a child's point of view...
I have heard and seen a LOT of behavior I could really say are "bad", but these above really don't look bad. Just normal kids stuff from a context where she may be too much nagged and not enough listened; while at the same time some boundaries may be missing.
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Bottom line is that the parents are unskilled and there is probably nothing you can do about it.
Does not sound like there are being particularly permissive. From my observation, the permissive/strict dicotomy is not as imporatant as the skilled/unskilled dichotomy. There are plenty of parents that intend to be strict but have wild kids, they have no idea how to get a kid to cooperate.
When the European settlers showed up in America, the native Americans thought they were barbarians becaused the beat their kids. The native Americans instilled disipline by honoring the steps toward growth and maturity.
In the last 50 years or so, we have largely given up beatings and substituted not honoring good behavior but scolding bad behavior. But scolding (and attention in general) reinforces the behavior it is directed toward. So the parents pretty much end up giving up, they can't control the kids.
Maybe someday more parents will figure this out.
Anyway, I don't think there is anything you can do about it. You can improve the quality of your interactions with your niece and even learn to model good parenting when you are with her, but it is unlikely that it will rub off on her parents. Unless they are seeking advice and new methods. But even then, they may be locked into a mindset that prevents the flexibilty required to try effective methods.
Does not sound like there are being particularly permissive. From my observation, the permissive/strict dicotomy is not as imporatant as the skilled/unskilled dichotomy. There are plenty of parents that intend to be strict but have wild kids, they have no idea how to get a kid to cooperate.
When the European settlers showed up in America, the native Americans thought they were barbarians becaused the beat their kids. The native Americans instilled disipline by honoring the steps toward growth and maturity.
In the last 50 years or so, we have largely given up beatings and substituted not honoring good behavior but scolding bad behavior. But scolding (and attention in general) reinforces the behavior it is directed toward. So the parents pretty much end up giving up, they can't control the kids.
Maybe someday more parents will figure this out.
Anyway, I don't think there is anything you can do about it. You can improve the quality of your interactions with your niece and even learn to model good parenting when you are with her, but it is unlikely that it will rub off on her parents. Unless they are seeking advice and new methods. But even then, they may be locked into a mindset that prevents the flexibilty required to try effective methods.
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These are all excellent points, and I really appreciate your insights.
It's true that, as Parentastic mentioned, I probably don't have realistic expectations of children's behavior because I'm rarely around them. And while I don't necessarily consider jumping on furniture or tossing stuff around to be naughty per se, looking Mom in the eye and refusing to stop when asked does make my list.
I also hadn't thought about the nagging angle, but it makes sense: Mom nags because Niece won't cooperate, and Niece won't cooperate because Mom nags . . . <I>super fun</I>.
Tadamsmar is also correct that there's not a damn thing I can do about either the kid's behavior or the parents' reaction to it. Maybe that's what bugs me most. But I am even less skilled at parenting than the rest of the family, so I suppose I'd better keep my trap shut.
It's true that, as Parentastic mentioned, I probably don't have realistic expectations of children's behavior because I'm rarely around them. And while I don't necessarily consider jumping on furniture or tossing stuff around to be naughty per se, looking Mom in the eye and refusing to stop when asked does make my list.
I also hadn't thought about the nagging angle, but it makes sense: Mom nags because Niece won't cooperate, and Niece won't cooperate because Mom nags . . . <I>super fun</I>.
Tadamsmar is also correct that there's not a damn thing I can do about either the kid's behavior or the parents' reaction to it. Maybe that's what bugs me most. But I am even less skilled at parenting than the rest of the family, so I suppose I'd better keep my trap shut.
nah.. you don't have to keep your mouth shut at your house. I promise. And I don't consider telling and expecting a child to behave as nagging. I listened to the Mom song.. and loved it. I'm sending it to my kids.
Everything she sang, was something they need to hear. Be clean, polite, on time, don't fight, eat healthy, listen to me. Good times!
My cousin is down visiting this week. Her parenting style is different from mine altogether. Her boys are quite a handful. They over stepped their bounds with some pretty nasty jokes yesterday. Pretty vulgar words. They are 8 and 11. They told it to my 17 year old who came home shocked and told us.. spelling the words btw.
When I went over to talk to my cousin, I explained what had been said. So.. here we are sitting on the patio discussing the problem when she starts telling me she doesn't know how to stop it. She asks them to use better words, she explains it hurts Mommy's feelings when they talk like that and they keep doing it. She was raised in an abusive household, and so she's really tried to be that Mom who never crossed the line. She went to the extreme by talking until she's blue in the face. So while she's telling me that she's not sure how it got to this, and I'm telling her she needs to gain control before its too late, one of the boys opens the door to the patio 6 times to ask her to do something. 5x she's asked him nicely to wait until we are through talking. On the 6th, I said to him... "Have you heard what your mother said? Your letting out Grandma's air conditioning, your interrupting adults talking, you've been asked to wait. None of that is nice. If you come out that door again I'm coming in there myself."
Crazy... the kids didn't open the door again. Now.. to make myself really clear, after a little while I did allow him to come out and get the help he needed with his toy. AT A TIME I CHOSE. My cousin started asking what to do to get help. She still feels out of control and probably even more so seeing that with just a little sternness, they can listen. Had I went inside.. he'd of probably been sent to bed because it was late anyway. I'm glad it didn't get to that. But would I have felt bad doing it.. NOT.
In your house, you can definitely say.. "Hey.. we don't do that here" and not be out of line.
The things you say that are happening, I do see as bad behavior. Your not alone in that.
Everything she sang, was something they need to hear. Be clean, polite, on time, don't fight, eat healthy, listen to me. Good times!
My cousin is down visiting this week. Her parenting style is different from mine altogether. Her boys are quite a handful. They over stepped their bounds with some pretty nasty jokes yesterday. Pretty vulgar words. They are 8 and 11. They told it to my 17 year old who came home shocked and told us.. spelling the words btw.
When I went over to talk to my cousin, I explained what had been said. So.. here we are sitting on the patio discussing the problem when she starts telling me she doesn't know how to stop it. She asks them to use better words, she explains it hurts Mommy's feelings when they talk like that and they keep doing it. She was raised in an abusive household, and so she's really tried to be that Mom who never crossed the line. She went to the extreme by talking until she's blue in the face. So while she's telling me that she's not sure how it got to this, and I'm telling her she needs to gain control before its too late, one of the boys opens the door to the patio 6 times to ask her to do something. 5x she's asked him nicely to wait until we are through talking. On the 6th, I said to him... "Have you heard what your mother said? Your letting out Grandma's air conditioning, your interrupting adults talking, you've been asked to wait. None of that is nice. If you come out that door again I'm coming in there myself."
Crazy... the kids didn't open the door again. Now.. to make myself really clear, after a little while I did allow him to come out and get the help he needed with his toy. AT A TIME I CHOSE. My cousin started asking what to do to get help. She still feels out of control and probably even more so seeing that with just a little sternness, they can listen. Had I went inside.. he'd of probably been sent to bed because it was late anyway. I'm glad it didn't get to that. But would I have felt bad doing it.. NOT.
In your house, you can definitely say.. "Hey.. we don't do that here" and not be out of line.
The things you say that are happening, I do see as bad behavior. Your not alone in that.
That's the dynamic in most households. It actually better for the mom give any good/desirable behavior positive attention rather than nagging about unwanted behavior, but this is counterintuitive to most parents.Sue Barashi said:
Here's a good article on the overall situation:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200109/why-our-kids-are-out-control[/URL]
If the mom ever seems to want advice, then this is a good article to direct her too. But she will probably will not be receptive if she has not expressed an interest in advice.
<t>On a lighter note, here is a non–behavior-related question:<br/>
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What would be a good gift for my niece's 8th birthday (next month)?<br/>
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I'm clueless about which toys, books, and games are popular, so maybe you can tell me what your kids like?</t>
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What would be a good gift for my niece's 8th birthday (next month)?<br/>
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I'm clueless about which toys, books, and games are popular, so maybe you can tell me what your kids like?</t>
There need to action taken by parents in order to discipline their child. A mother cannot ignore a childs misbehavior and then give up too soon as the kid will grow up with these habits. Its easier to correct them when they are young. And parents need to stop them or shout at them when they are doing something wrong.