Gun control....

[bssage]

again no personal attacks

I am not a fan of gun control. I think gun owners should be vested including background checks ect. But I feel a legally owned and responsibly cared for guns is not the problem.

I have several guns. And I possess a conceal carry permit. I am sure my background check was both thorough and complete. They put my permit on hold due to a non dis-positioned case 20 years ago. So they really had to do there homework to find that.

I think the magazine capacity issue is kinda silly. All of the modern shooters I am aware of had multiple guns and magazines. At the same time of have no problem limiting the size if it gave some false sense of security. Kinda a non-issue: who care's IMHO.

 

[mom2many]

I do agree that the idea of gun control breeds a false sense of security. The criminals will always have guns, Colton just did a paper for school on this very topic and we learned some interesting statistics.

1. The US only makes up 5% of the worlds population, and yet we own 50% of the worlds guns. That to me is a little scary.
2. It's almost 50/50 on who does and doesn't won any form of gun.
3. In 1980 Chicago banned all hand guns do to it's over whelming deaths by guns. I believe they even did a buy back program (don't quote me there). Did their crime rate drop? No, guns are still an issue and so is murder. Where there's a will there is a way.
4. Arizona, some of the most lax gun laws on the books, and a state where a large percentage have permits to carry, isn't even in the top 10 states/cities for gun related crimes.

When we speak of new gun laws we speak of responsible owners. Responsible owners are not the problem, the ease of the black market is the problem. Someone hell bent on destruction, is going to create destruction ie,. Timothy McVay, even 9/11. All mass murders and not a single gun was used. The recent school shooting isn't even the worst in our history, granted it was in 1927, but 44 people/children died in it and not a single weapon was used (Bath, Michigan school massacre).

I do believe something needs to be done, maybe we should start with gun shows, then start really enforcing the gun laws already on the books. Maybe even a background check similar to a concealed weapons permit, but again, does that really stop the criminals?

 

[bssage]

I believe they even did a buy back program

I think they still do. I am not sure if its every year. But I have seen it in action a few times since I have been going there. I think it has been fairly successful getting unregistered guns out of the system.

maybe we should start with gun shows, then start really enforcing the gun laws already on the books. Maybe even a background check similar to a concealed weapons permit,

And as a owner/buyer. I dont really have a problem with some extra steps.

but again, does that really stop the criminals?

I think its mainly CYA. But some of the logic is that if your upset and decide to purchase a gun to resolve an issue. Maybe the extra time will allow for more reasoned thought. And while I agree if you are involved with people who already do illegal things it is probably not be very hard to buy a gun illegally. But for the common people who are not currently living outside the law. It would probably be more difficult to obtain a weapon illegally.

 

[cybele]

Cybele

The way I understand it. The reason guns are hard to get there is because of mass shootings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Schwab
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoddle_Street_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Street_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strathfield_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Coast_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia[/url])
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting

And it is also my understanding that the new gun laws are being cited as the reason these incidents have been reduced (even though one of those links involved a knife)

Affirmative.

Don't worry bssage, I remember every single one of them, they all happened in my lifetime and I worked on Hoddle street at the time of the shooting at a late night dry cleaner and I was on shift that night, I remember the Hoddle street massacre way too clearly for my liking.

And that string during the late 80's - early 90's, ending with Port Arthur was the reason why Australia now has strict gun control laws, the general consensus is that they were caused by a lot of monkey-see-monkey-do, because they were just so close together and honestly, in '96, it was as if the government pulled out the parent card and had to go "Okay, you all can't use these properly so you lose them, no ifs ands or butts" which did piss off a lot of people, naturally, but I really do think it was a case of necessity because, obviously, we couldn't use them without going to ridiculous shooting rampages, and as a country on a whole, we really haven't looked back since.

I feel a little strange commenting on Monash Uni, because that was a very strange situation and the Australian public never got the whole story of what happened, simply down to the fact that Australia, as a country as a whole, is still ridiculously racist and the media was so hung up on the fact that it was an international student with very very restricted knowledge of English that it was near impossible to find any facts, just rambling idiots ranting and raving about the "evils" of immigration. What I do know is that following Monash Uni, after it was revealed the gun used was obtained legally for the sport of shooting, was that we got even tighter with our gun laws.

But onto America, because obviously that is the country of topic for gun control at the moment.

The way I understand and interpret with, and I could be way off, but all I really have to work on is what the media reports here, currently the guns laws are one of the loosest in the first world, I believe that the US is too rooted in gun culture for just flat out "No, say goodbye to guns, you can't use them properly" however I really think tighter restrictions need to come into place.

Am I correct in saying that with the shooting at Sandy Hook, the family of the shooter were "apocalypse stockpiling" or something like that and they had 6 loaded guns in their possession? That is really what the media here has focused on, is the sheer number of guns people use. Obviously there is little you can do for those who have unregistered firearms, but I really cannot understand why someone would need to carry more operational guns, ready for use, then people to operate them. My belief is that the first step the US needs to take is restriction in number of firearms.

And sorry Bryan, I know you won't like this, but I also believe that at no point does a civilian have a reason to carry a concealed weapon. There is no legitimate reason, honestly the only pro argument I have heard is "In case an incident happens and I can save the day" or whatever, which I think is a non-argument because generally if one has plans to shoot up a place, they are not in a well enough state of mind to go "Whoops, hold up, I can see that person holding a gun, won't shoot up this place today" whether other people with guns are visible or not, chances are, that person is still going to kill people, and really, add someone not trained to use a gun trying to be a hero into that mix, and you probably will end up with more dead and/or injured innocent people.

I think if you take massacres out of it, because whilst devastating, they are a minority in terms of crime in first world countries and look at general gun crime, the main issue could even be education and security. Keeping guns away from small children, teaching how to use them correctly, teaching restraint. Not "I'll keep a loaded gun under my pillow in reach of my unsupervised two year old".


Just to brush on the topic of "the criminals will always have guns" criminals also make meth, doesn't mean it needs to be readily available to everyone.

 

[mom2many]

The way I understand and interpret with, and I could be way off, but all I really have to work on is what the media reports here, currently the guns laws are one of the loosest in the first world, I believe that the US is too rooted in gun culture for just flat out "No, say goodbye to guns, you can't use them properly" however I really think tighter restrictions need to come into place.

Am I correct in saying that with the shooting at Sandy Hook, the family of the shooter were "apocalypse stockpiling" or something like that and they had 6 loaded guns in their possession? That is really what the media here has focused on, is the sheer number of guns people use. Obviously there is little you can do for those who have unregistered firearms, but I really cannot understand why someone would need to carry more operational guns, ready for use, then people to operate them. My belief is that the first step the US needs to take is restriction in number of firearms.

That I haven't heard, there is also 'rumor' going around that the assault rifle used in the shooting was actually in the trunk of the car. Which if that's the case would mean that he only used two standard handguns, who know though. Truthfully we won't really know for months just what really went on.

As for apocalypse stockpiling...most aren't crazy, they really are just trying to be prepared for any event. As my husband says it's better to be one step ahead of the crazies, we do seem to be a nation that breeds extremest. Yet, they aren't really the concern either.

And sorry Bryan, I know you won't like this, but I also believe that at no point does a civilian have a reason to carry a concealed weapon. There is no legitimate reason, honestly the only pro argument I have heard is "In case an incident happens and I can save the day" or whatever, which I think is a non-argument because generally if one has plans to shoot up a place, they are not in a well enough state of mind to go "Whoops, hold up, I can see that person holding a gun, won't shoot up this place today" whether other people with guns are visible or not, chances are, that person is still going to kill people, and really, add someone not trained to use a gun trying to be a hero into that mix, and you probably will end up with more dead and/or injured innocent people.

Many people who have concealed weapons permits actually get them so that when they do go to buy a firearm they can bypass many of the steps currently in place. They show their permit and are clear to buy and go since the have already had an extensive background check done on them.

My husband has one, got it because of some drugged up ex-employee where he worked, plus he drives through a not so nice part of town so he felt it better to be safe then sorry. My son will be getting one next year and so will my DD, but so they can buy without having to wait.

I think if you take massacres out of it, because whilst devastating, they are a minority in terms of crime in first world countries and look at general gun crime, the main issue could even be education and security. Keeping guns away from small children, teaching how to use them correctly, teaching restraint. Not "I'll keep a loaded gun under my pillow in reach of my unsupervised two year old".

You'd think this is common sense, and for most gun owners it is, but of course there are always a few idiots in every bunch. We teach gun safety from the moment they can walk and talk, they are taught just how powerful they are and that they aren't a toy, even toy guns are taught to be respected. All of mine, even the littlest have a gun, but we have a safe and the hubby is the only one with the combo. We will be upgrading in a few months and Lupan will be taking the current one we have so he can take his with him when he goes and that way we know they will be safe. Sam is going to get a lock box, since she only has handguns. We plan this for all of them when we leave. Responsible ownership is where it really starts.

Just to brush on the topic of "the criminals will always have guns" criminals also make meth, doesn't mean it needs to be readily available to everyone.

Then again, how well are those laws working? It's still readily available.

 

[bssage]

I am pretty much on the same page as M2m. I have the permit. But the reality is guns are uncomfortable to carry. and for the most part unnecessary. I got it first for the reason M2m described to make purchases easier. And 2nd because I could.

apocalypse stockpiling: its not uncommon for people to have quite a few guns. They are collectible and its fun to shoot different guns. And while I dont have a problem with one loaded CC gun. It does not make much sense to me to have multiple loaded guns laying about.

While training is not required in Iowa. We were told our permit would be refused. So I took the class. Have plans to attend advanced class. And we spend quite a bit of time on the range. It has really turned into a great father son activity. Cole and I have spent some real quality time on the range. And its a good environment to approach other subjects.

The big talk around here is reducing the capacity of magazines. And banning assault rifles. Which I don't care much either way about either of these things. I do think its kinda silly to believe either one would have any real impact.

Really if you have lower capacity magazines. Just get more magazines.

The assault rifles: There not legally sold fully auto. There is no real difference between a semi auto assault rifle and another rifle other than the assault rifle looks more menacing.

Assault rifles have handgun grip with the stock. Which I find comfortable. And they just tend to have more modern mechanisms. Fun to shoot.

Most of the things proposed I really am unconcerned with. My concern is that they seem without merit. the background checks dont bother me. I like to buy a gun when I want one but a little wait is not the end of the world. ect ect.

M2M I think is really on target that a lot of it is owner responsibility. And reductions of illegal guns/owners.

Dont get me wrong. I both love and trust both my kids. But I am not going to allow them access to guns when I am not around. If I left a gun where Cole had free access to it that would be irresponsible. Where Chloe had access to it would be insane.

Everyone makes bad decisions: kids and adults. I wont allow my kids to make a bad decision with a gun. Its not a mistake I can allow to happen. Its the responsibility of every legal gun owner IMHO.

And again in support of what M2M was saying. Being responsible with a weapon does not start with the first real gun. It starts with toy guns: BB guns: Airsoft guns: pocket knives. So that by the time they can become owners. Safety is second nature. That they unload and secure weapons with out even thinking about it. It becomes a natural part of the process.

 

[parentastic]

I have been thinking of the US issue with gun control for quite some time, but it's only recently, through my Masters' degree, that I have reached perhaps a different understanding of this whole issue.

If we look at this issue from the pro-gun or anti-gun perspective, we find things like:

Pro-gun:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• "bad" guys can easily find gun, legal or not. Therefore I should be able to get some to defend myself</LI>
  <LI>
• you can't count on the authorities to defend your family</LI>
  <LI>
• only a trained shooter can stop another shooter gone mad</LI>
  <LI>
• banning guns, or automated gun, or high-magazine guns won't change the situation</LI>
  <LI>
• States where everyone carry display a lower murder rate</LI>

</LIST>

Anti-gun:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Violence creates more violence and it escalates toward an ever-more violent society by raising the stakes for the "bad" guys</LI>
  <LI>
• Automatic guns are made for mass-killing human beings, not for hunting; so are huge 100 clips magazines</LI>
  <LI>
• Criminals aren't the only one using guns to kill people; so do people under stress or gone crazy, when they have easy immediate access to guns</LI>
  <LI>
• US is a strange country with more guns than anywhere else in the world and with the highest count of gun murders in the world</LI>

</LIST>

I am sure I am missing arguments for both camps; the point is to look at it together above and notice that they are BOTH right (to an extent) which makes this issue especially difficult to grasp, let alone solve.

So here is an interesting thing I learned in my Masters in Human Systems: it's called the <I>complexity theory</I>. The idea is that a culture, a society (such as the U.S. society) is a complex system that cannot be understood from a single small angle. It makes up a whole that is greater and more complicated than the sum of its millions of parts. In the US society, we can found a lot of different factors that all create together this web of behaviors, actions and reactions from US citizen, and if we want to change that, or solve it, we cannot do it by applying a small single solution.

Single solutions (also called <I>linear solutions</I>) do not work in complex system, because each new "solution" creates a bunch more problems and complexities. Only a mulch-faceted complex solution can have a chance to change a large and complex human system such as a whole society.
I am sorry for the theory part of this, now if you are still with me, here comes the practicalities.

In US society, I can see (out of millions of possible factors) these elements:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• 1. Guns are engrained deeply into the U.S. culture. They are part of the constitution (for ill or good reasons, that's not the point), they are in the house of at least 50% of US citizen, they are part of the country's history, they are part of 99.9% of every movie created by US movie industry.</LI>
  <LI>
• 2. Mass media are manufacturing fear. Every story has an angle about how unsafe the world is, how you need to "protect" yourself, how your neighbor is out to get you, how people get crazy and start killing you, etc. Fear of other races is also part of the culture: black, latinos, white, etc.</LI>
  <LI>
• 3. Mass Media will also report on mass murder as if it was porn. They will discuss at length every possible detail about the killings and the murderer. They will show images. They will make it so every possible unstable crazy suicidal person will see these act as a way to get glory and fame, and go out in flame.</LI>
  <LI>
• 4. The bulk of US citizens have below average education and high level of poverty, while also having a high level of religious beliefs. This makes it easy to develop binary thinking, seeing everyone in terms of "evil" or "good" people, no grey area. From this stems a generally accepted dichotomy, where people are quickly sorted into theses two categories. Hence, we see a lot of discourses from Americans that are very superficial: Bush' "they are with us or against us", to name only one, is one example that comes to mind.</LI>
  <LI>
• 5. Powerful lobbies such as the NRA, whose interest is to sell weapons, are heavily influencing the medias and the public discourses, poisoning the well, so to speak.</LI>
  <LI>
• 6. US is also the country with the highest prison population in the world (in industrialized world). Part of the culture is the idea of justice associated with vengeance, punishment, paying for crimes, etc. (as opposed to other countries where rehabilitation or the safety of citizen is the primary concern for how to handle criminals). US is also one of the last place in the industrialized world with the death sentence. In the US culture therefore, problems get solved with violence, and that's the norm.</LI>
  <LI>
• 7. Part of the US culture is also to develop the world biggest military, biggest military spending in the world, and the use of the military as a "solution" to handle the world's problem (by invading other countries, etc). Again, in the culture of USA, violence is how even the country itself handles its problems.</LI>
  <LI>
• 8. Happiness is seen as totally related to money is US. It's a society for consumption, first and foremost. Being "at the top" means having more money, more things, more technology, more more more. Heath care is a product to be sold. Education is a product to be sold. Sex is a product to be sold. Success is measured by the bank account you have. The "American dream" is about becoming a millionaire. Profit is seen as desirable and normal for every corporation and everything.</LI>
  <LI>
• 9. Finally, in USA, the culture is about the individual. People build huge fences around their property. They do things alone. Corporation research R&amp;D alone. The individual rights trumps the collective rights.</LI>

</LIST>

So what do we get?
Violence as a way of solving issues, fear of neighbors, fear of other races, highest murder rate, easiest access to gun in the world, self-centered culture focusing on the material gains and on the individual over the collective needs...

All of this considered as a WHOLE SYSTEM (rather than looking at any of these single situation) and the mass murders can start to be explained. And as the US culture spreads to Canada and north America and then to other part of the world, some countries also start to have mass killings. But it remains isolated anywhere but in USA.

So what's the solution?
Only a systemic solution will solve this issue on the long run. And such a solution must act on several issues all together:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Reduce fear. That involves changing the way the media operates. Clearly show the decline in crime rate. Don't make a big story of each little accident or murder. STOP reporting murders on the news.</LI>
  <LI>
• Stop giving an aura of glory to mass murderers. Don't ever name them on the media. Don't go back into their lives. Don't interview their relatives. Don't publish ANYTHING about them, ever. Ban what's already been published on other. Pass a law to make any mass murderer anonymous / confidential to the public, so that would-be new murderers will start to realize that will never get the glory they seek through this way. Instead, report on the courage of families, the heroic actions of people who saved other people, etc.</LI>
  <LI>
• Making assault guns and heavy-magazine clips illegal won't stop killings or mass murders immediately. But they will also, on the long run, allow the overall society to feel less threaten. It's an escalation process. You get a gun because the neighbor has one. The neighbor gets a shogun because you have a gun. You get a semi automatic rifle because he has a shotgun. And so on. Let it be known that tools of mass murder are no longer easy to get, so that eventually, over a few decades, it's not longer considered "normal" to have a tool that can kill 100 people in 20 seconds.</LI>
  <LI>
• Start social programs to help people in poverty. Remove some of the stress level that falls onto parents; which in turn means they don't have all the time or all the attention they could give to their kids, which in turns are the ones who become deranged and snap and end up mass-killing people. Less poor people = more people happy. More people happy = less fear of your neighbor. It's all inter-related.</LI>

</LIST>
Enough for a single post.
Food for thoughts, perhaps.

Peace.

 

[Jeremy+3]

I'll use GB as an example of a country that is pretty much without guns, being my own country its possibly the easiest one for me to use as clearly I'm accustomed to our laws and I can see them in effect, instead of merely hearing about it etc.

The GB has one of the lowest rates of gun use in the entire world, we also have one of the lowest rates of gun death in the world.

As our law standards all automatic and semi-automatic guns are banned. Rifles are permitted, however you must gain a license to own one, be considered to have good reason (so a farmer wishing to shoot foxes).

All licenses to both own a firearm and to own ammunition are granted by the police, the person in question is heavily investigated as are all family members and anyone who may regularly frequent the property e.g. a member of staff. A license lasts for a maximum for five years and you must submit to any visits by police to ensure both firearms and ammunition are stored correctly and only the agreed items are owned. Any person who has spent time in prison is not allowed a firearms license (this used to just be for those who have spent more than three years in prison). The applicants main doctor must also be interviewed, they must have been their main doctor for at least two years and all medical information must be made available to police.

Only certain times of ammunition is legal, the most dangerous type is expanding which must only be used in deer hunting, a gun owner can only possess a limited amount of this ammunition and inform police of any activity with said gun/ammunition before use.

Guns must be stored in a locked container (type specified in your license) that is bolted to the ground, so someone living in a flat or a gypsy living in a caravan would be unable to use a gun. Ammunition is must be stored in the same way, but in a separate container.

In the last hundred years there have been two mass shootings in GB, the first being the Hungerford massacre in 1987 where a man killed 16 people and himself. Secondly we had Dunblane in 1996 where a man killed 16 primary aged children and a teacher. These are the worst gun related atrocities in the UK. In I believe 2010 a man killed 11 people with his guns.

In the last year there were around 11K firearm related offenses in the UK the majority of these involved air weapons and imitation firearms. There were 60 deaths caused by guns.

In the UK our police are not armed as they generally don't need to be, we do have specialist gun units, however these are only used in extreme circumstances and are only allowed to shoot to kill.

If we take the number of mass shootings in America you will see that there is a mass shooting every five days. We have had three in the last 100 years.

Any possession of an illegal firearm, illegal ammunition, illegal use of ammunition or breaking the requirements of a firearm license incur a ten year prison sentence and an unlimited financial fine.

In America there are 98 civilian owned guns for every 100 residents, 40% of all legally civilian owned guns in America are bought without the need of a permit or background check.

In America on average 5,700 children are killed by a gun each year, that is a child every three hours, a third of these incidents are accidental. I would be able to count such deaths here on one hand.

In 2010 just shy of 13,000 people were murdered in America 8,775 of those were caused by guns so around 80% of all murders, just over 95% of those involved legally owned guns. In the same year 51 people in the UK were killed by guns, 1/3rd being by armed police, then the rest are mainly legally owned (and accidental) with a minority being illegally owned/crime related.

Between 1990 and 2012 1132 police officers were killed by guns, most of these were legally owned. Within the same time period 10 police officers were killed in the UK.

Clearly the UK numbers will be smaller anyway as we have a smaller population, however if you were to divide the figures to take population difference into account the numbers are still horrendously different. Generally 3.5 people per 100,000 are killed by guns each year in the US, in the UK the figure is 0.01 per 100,000.

More people are murdered every day in America with guns than they are murdered in the UK in two years.

In the states those who legally owned guns are much more likely to be both killed by a gun, not due to where they live, but due to the poor decisions they are likely to make. The same can be very easily seen for those who carry knives.

Some American people believe it is their right to own virtually any gun, when in reality the only gun the amendment intended them to own was a musket for use during war. Another interesting thing about America if you look at guns per household, generally the more guns per household the poorer that households education, the lower their income and the more children they are likely to have. Where as in the UK more guns generally means more money, highly educated and likely to be part of the aristocracy.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

Jeremy, have you seen this website?
Www.thehomegunsmith.com

I live in GB as well, but I really support american perspective on self defense. and I really respect how people stand up for their constitutional rights.

 

[Jeremy+3]

Jeremy, have you seen this website?
Www.thehomegunsmith.com

I live in GB as well, but I really support american perspective on self defense. and I really respect how people stand up for their constitutional rights.

Thats a BNP run site.

 

[parentastic]

Thats a BNP run site.

What is a BNP?

 

[TabascoNatalie]

British national party.

So? what's wrong with it?

 

[bssage]

Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html[/url]


Little bit for both sides

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2569/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime[/url]

At least we share a simular color designation on some charts.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html[/url]

Look were neibors again:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes[/url]

I see that pellet or bb guns are firearm offenses in GB. Oh and pepper spray. Also illegal??

Looks like GB has one of the highest violent crime rates in the world. and rising.

If someone breaks into your house while your home and you confront and shoot them. Its considered murder?? I imagine it would be better to share some chips and a spot of tea before you politely ask them not to muss the house.


I do have to admit it was educational looking up the non-linked stuff you posted.

No thanks.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

Bssage, situation in uk is sad and ridiculous. If you punch a burglar in the face you could be done for assault

 

[mom2many]

Bssage, situation in uk is sad and ridiculous. If you punch a burglar in the face you could be done for assault

Wow, really? I could not imagine

 

[cybele]

Woah, that is scary.

As opposed to this guy, who made national news and everyone thinks he is pretty awesome
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2012/11/12/05/27/elderly-nsw-man-fights-off-intruders[/url]

 

[ElliottCarasDad]

Im not a gun person per se, but not against ownership and whatever either. Im just comfortable with guns or having them around, especially now that I have children. (And this comes from someone who was pulled over with a car full of people and legally stored fireams, yet green stained teeth from food coloring spiked Coronas on Saint Patty's Day in San Diego while driving to the desert to do some target practice )
I was in the military for almost 12 years, guns dont scare me, people scare me. Especially people I dont know with guns.

 

[ElliottCarasDad]

I also love these beady-eyed fucks the NRA throw in front of the TV that are supposed to help convince us that armed security at schools would help while this was the exact situation at columbine and we know how that went (He was screwing arou d away from his job during lunch when they attacked)....

 

[Jeremy+3]

British national party.

So? what's wrong with it?

Erm, so whats wrong with it? Some people have the intelligence to completely ignore a website created by members of the BNP who not only think those who are not British should be hung, but they also believe that a British person can only be considered British if all of their ancestors have been born in Britain in the last 10 million years, despite the fact that humans didn't even exist at this time.

 

[Jeremy+3]

Wow, really? I could not imagine

Thats because it isn't true at all, we have legal reasonable force which is why many burglars are punched, beaten, stabbed and sometimes even killed. Although if you punched a random stranger you wouldn't be charged with assault as that isn't assault at all, you would be charged with battery.