Health care (Moved from Obama vs Romney poll)...

cybele

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I don't know where the idea that we don't pay extra in our taxes comes from, both Jeremy and I stated that we do, just that the cost of medical services we receive without gap payment is higher than what we pay in tax.

bssage said:
I could be wrong please correct me if I am. Its just the way I currently understand things. But in these countries who have successful systems. One way or another EVERYONE IS COVERED correct??
Here, everyone is covered by the public system.

If you are over 31 and choose not to have your own private health cover (which is not offered through workplaces here, they are seperate companies and you are not required to disclose any medical information regarding illness, and even if you do, they cannot discriminate, sometimes your workplace can have a deal with certain companies or it could be optional to join a health care company only available to certain types of workers, but it is optional) then your Medicare levy taxes are higher than those who do have private insurance.
 

mom2many

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bssage said:
Well not really free. Just covered. We pay for it in the rates.

True, I pay almost $6000 a year to have routine medical to be 'free'. We rarely have a need for our medical. If I really thought about it we don't even use that much medical per year, even with the few ER trips we take a year. The only exception is the 2 years in a row that Lupan broke his collarbone and it required a special 'unit' to help heal it. He will need surgery at some point.
 

bssage

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I did not mean to imply there was no cost tax wise. If I gave that impression: My bad. And I guess my definition of successful is probably debatable. Successful to me is not being turned away from care. Not going into debt for common life events ect. I would guess "Successful" is subjective.

I am guessing that the combination of your tax burden and private insurance cost is less than the same combination we currently pay.

And that the foundation of your systems is that everyone is covered one way or another. I am not under the impression you all are "getting something for nothing". Or free medical care.
 

akmom

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This discussion over other countries' health care systems has been very informative.

I am not necessarily against having a public health system, but I have a problem with the mandate forcing citizens to participate in a privatized health insurance industry which is still very inequitable. Not all policies are available to everyone. And it's not really linked to income either. A poor person can have access to very good, affordable health insurance, or have access to only one plan with premiums and high deductibles. It depends on the size of the company you work for, whether it's a government job or a private sector one, how big it is, and where it's located. It's not on a sliding fee scale at all.

When we first got out of college, my husband worked for a retail store at minimum wage, and I was an intern at a job that didn't offer any insurance. Although his wages were small, we had three excellent health plans to choose from. That was the insurance plan we used for our first baby. Ironically, most of his co-workers didn't have insurance at all, because they qualified for Medicaid (free coverage for low-income households). We actually qualified for it too, but we were raised that it was wrong to rely on government handouts if you didn't need to, so we paid our small deductibles and co-payments. No one questioned us when we were paying into the plan for a year, but the minute insurance got billed for the baby's birth, we get a letter encouraging us to enroll in Medicaid so we can avoid deductibles and co-pays. The insurance company apparently hoped to get out of paying those bills!

Two years later, my husband gets a job in his field (and I go SAHM) and our income goes up, but we have a choice of exactly ONE insurance plan, it's 5x the cost of our former plan, and it has a $1,000 per person deductible (which rose to $1,500 after Obamacare passed - coincidence or not). Now our household income certainly didn't pentuple.

All "Obamacare" does is force everyone into some kind of plan, somewhere (or a fine that comes with no coverage). It doesn't guarantee everyone will be offered a plan that is affordable, or that you can find an in-network provider within 1000 miles, or even that your deductible will be less than your monthly income! It's not the same as what Cybele describes as Medicare Australia.

As far as I know, it doesn't really address the major government expenditures toward health care either. So-called illegal immigrants who utilize emergency rooms still won't have coverage (nor be fined). Seniors will still have to use Medicaid for nursing home care (since Medicare [the program for seniors] doesn't cover it) - and elderly nursing care accounts for 30% of Medicaid expenses. So where's the universal coverage? It's coverage in name only; you still go bankrupt if you require extensive care, and you are still at the mercy of whatever deal your employer is able to cut with the insurance companies.

To top that, only 80% of premiums must be spent on medical care (which, being run by the private sector, is a guarantee that 20% will be spent on profits). Now what is the best way to maximize your 20% profit allowance? Keep medical costs high (relative to GDP), so that the total amount is larger. Since it is insurance companies that negotiate prices with (in-network) providers, they do have a direct influence in how this plays out.

Remember, the public option didn't pass in Congress. Also, the anti-trust exemption wasn't repealed. So theoretically, health insurance companies could quickly monopolize and stifle any competition that might otherwise act as a cost control.
 
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bssage

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Here is a link to a summary of the bill. http://useconomy.about.com/od/healthcarereform/a/Obamacare-Bill.htm[/URL]

It was a little problematic finding something that was not biased one way or the other. So far this is the best I can do. At the bottom of the summary is a link to the actual bill. Also here: http://useconomy.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=useconomy&cdn=newsissues&tm=4222&f=00&su=p284.13.342.ip_p504.6.342.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.healthcare.gov/law/full/index.html[/URL]

This is a remark I see frequently:
All "Obamacare" does is force everyone into some kind of plan, somewhere (or a fine that comes with no coverage).
First the "fine" appears to be a nominal tax (2.5%) increase to offset the medicare that would need to be used. Second: Are we implying that there are some people who don't require any kind of insurance? People who should not be forced to get any kind of insurance?

I believe you can still be "self insured" which requires a amount of saved money sufficient to meet the requirements of being insured. To be isolated and certified as only to be used for insurance reasons. As it has always been.

I dont personally know any individuals who are "self insured" But I believe the last two companies I worked for where. They had holdings of which they paid insurance companies to manage for them. The amount of money required to be held is determined by safety ratings and other factors. This money can not be used for anything else: investments, capital expenditure's ect. and must be maintained according to that rating. I dont believe this has changed.

So I think the money I get from Blue cross/ Blue shield. Is actually not their money. Its the Union Pacific's money that is managed by BC/BS.

I am going to read the full bill. So if I don't participate for a bit. That's why.
 
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akmom

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First the "fine" appears to be a nominal tax (2.5%) increase to offset the medicare that would need to be used.
Medicare is reserved for senior citizens, not the uninsured. Medicaid is the free insurance for low-income families, and is funded 50/50 by the federal government and each state. (It also happens to cover much of what Medicare does not, with seniors accounting for 30% of its expenses.) But not everyone gets Medicaid. So those fines wouldn't offset the medical costs for a family who was uninsured but didn't qualify for Medicaid coverage. It's based on income, not whether your medical costs are unaffordable. A person with a decent income couldn't use Medicaid even if they had more medical debt than income. So it doesn't offset anything for them. And the truly poor wouldn't be uninsured because they'd qualify for subsidies. The fine really attacks people above poverty who lack access to an affordable plan.

I believe you can still be "self insured" which requires a amount of saved money sufficient to meet the requirements of being insured.
Yes, you are right. I guess I meant "individually insured" - as in not part of a group plan that (theoretically) has bargaining power over premiums - rather than actually self-insured.

I am going to read the full bill. So if I don't participate for a bit. That's why.
Then that's amazing, because not even the Supreme Court would read it in full. And neither did the Congress members before they voted for it!
 

tadamsmar

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Romney once berated a woman to ignore doctor's orders and carry a kid to term:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/11/1143063/-A-Devastating-Expose-of-Romney-s-Treatment-of-Mormon-Women-Emerges[/url]

He so upset the woman and her family that her father had to order Romney to get out of the house and leave his daughter alone.

Do you really want this guy planning the US health care system?
 
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bssage

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I am in the Obama camp. But where are you getting this story? I dont see it in the link. I do see this
“abortion should be an option in cases of rape, incest or to save a mother’s life”
attributed to Romney.

No I don't want him running the health care system. But I am not a fan of sensationalize out of context acts for either candidate.
 

bssage

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akmom said:
Then that's amazing, because not even the Supreme Court would read it in full. And neither did the Congress members before they voted for it!
Ummm ,,,,, maybe bit off a little more than I can chew with that comment. 4068 pages. I'm giving it a go. But not going to make any promises. The first 7 pages are contents.:eek:
 

tadamsmar

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bssage said:
I am in the Obama camp. But where are you getting this story? I dont see it in the link. I do see this attributed to Romney.

No I don't want him running the health care system. But I am not a fan of sensationalize out of context acts for either candidate.
Opps! I posted the wrong link! Here is the right one.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/11/1143063/-A-Devastating-Expose-of-Romney-s-Treatment-of-Mormon-Women-Emerges[/url]

There is a rumor that there will be some October surprise related to this story, but I don't know if it will be substantive or just an attempt get this back into the current news. Obama just started using the term Romnesia, a term first used to mock Romney because he could not recall berating this woman who's life was threatened by her pregnancy.

(Since today is the day of the last debate, it could be called October Surprise Eve, since the surprise attacks might start coming out as early as tomorrow.)
 

Testing

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akmom: I am not necessarily against having a public health system, but I have a problem with the mandate forcing citizens to participate in a privatized health insurance industry which is still very inequitable. Not all policies are available to everyone. And it's not really linked to income either. A poor person can have access to very good, affordable health insurance, or have access to only one plan with premiums and high deductibles. It depends on the size of the company you work for, whether it's a government job or a private sector one, how big it is, and where it's located. It's not on a sliding fee scale at all.
Yes, exactly.



Two years later, my husband gets a job in his field (and I go SAHM) and our income goes up, but we have a choice of exactly ONE insurance plan, it's 5x the cost of our former plan, and it has a $1,000 per person deductible (which rose to $1,500 after Obamacare passed - coincidence or not). Now our household income certainly didn't pentuple.

All "Obamacare" does is force everyone into some kind of plan, somewhere (or a fine that comes with no coverage). It doesn't guarantee everyone will be offered a plan that is affordable, or that you can find an in-network provider within 1000 miles, or even that your deductible will be less than your monthly income! It's not the same as what Cybele describes as Medicare Australia.
Absolutely. Deductibles have risen exponentially, while incomes have not, and coverage has decreased dramatically. And you stated what Obamacare does very well! Perfect, concise summary. You will have "access" to a plan. You have to pay for some plan or a fine, even if it means you have to forego food to do it! Ridiculous.

So where's the universal coverage? It's coverage in name only; you still go bankrupt if you require extensive care, and you are still at the mercy of whatever deal your employer is able to cut with the insurance companies.
Yes!

To top that, only 80% of premiums must be spent on medical care (which, being run by the private sector, is a guarantee that 20% will be spent on profits). Now what is the best way to maximize your 20% profit allowance? Keep medical costs high (relative to GDP), so that the total amount is larger. Since it is insurance companies that negotiate prices with (in-network) providers, they do have a direct influence in how this plays out.
Bingo! Insurance companies are pimps.

Remember, the public option didn't pass in Congress. Also, the anti-trust exemption wasn't repealed. So theoretically, health insurance companies could quickly monopolize and stifle any competition that might otherwise act as a cost control.
This is the best summary of how this travesty affects the little guy that I've seen. Thanks.
 

bssage

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Neither of you have answered my question. One of the big gripe's against is:
All "Obamacare" does is force everyone into some kind of plan, somewhere (or a fine that comes with no coverage).
What are you suggesting. Is there a group of people who do not need healthcare?
 

akmom

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Absolutely. There are many people who choose not to participate in the medical establishment. In Alaska, it's largely an access issue. When you have a population density this low, you just don't get health care facilities that reach everyone. People literally die in their homes, rather than uproot their entire lives to be in a city near hospitals. Lots of women give birth at home too, with all the risks. They have a few boarding homes where women can spend their last month of pregnancy near a hospital, but most mothers do not want to disappear from their families for that long, especially if they have other children. Yet others just want to pay for their care as needed, and forego what they cannot afford. Lots of people never need significant health care. So yes, they shouldn't be stuck paying hundreds of dollars a month for health care for people all over the country when it is not available to them or desired by them.
 

bssage

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akmom said:
There are many people who choose not to participate in the medical establishment.
akmom said:
Lots of women give birth at home too, with all the risks. They have a few boarding homes where women can spend their last month of pregnancy near a hospital, but most mothers do not want to disappear from their families for that long,
akmom said:
<U><I>forego what they cannot afford</I></U>
. Lots of people never need significant health care.
Many, more, most, lots,,, I am not sure how to qualify these. I do know this:

The state that has less total population (722.718) than say the city of Columbus Ohio. pop 797.434

Of the 722.718 population

Anchorage 291.826
Fairbanks 181.312
Juneau 49.475

roughly 522.613 has access to healthcare facilities. Which indicates a fair percentage of the population has access to health care.


akmom said:
In Alaska, it's largely an access issue. When you have a population density this low, you just don't get health care facilities that reach everyone. People literally die in their homes, rather than uproot their entire lives to be in a city near hospitals.
I will concede this point. Although We did not want to drive a couple hours for Cole to see a specialist when he was born. We are not big fans of taking Chloe every couple of months for a 4 hr drive to see her doctor. Nor my mom driving to Mayo 5 to 6 hrs.

akmom said:
Yet others just want to pay for their care as needed,
And I would guess this could be said for most anyone. If they could afford it.

akmom said:
So yes, they shouldn't be stuck paying hundreds of dollars a month for health care for people all over the country when it is not available to them or desired by them.
I guess I don't completely disagree with this. I am pretty sure the native people are already exempt. I would also guess. Some people who live in the outlying area's are willing to travel a bit to get care.

And apparently http://www.hss.state.ak.us/healthcommission/docs/2011_report_summary_handout_final.pdf[/url] is not aware of all the people who are not wanting healthcare.
 

bssage

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One thing we seem to be completely missing. These people who are posting that have a national health care. Seem to be pretty content. At least more content than we are.

If I am understanding correctly. They say there were growing pains going into it. But in a general way they are OK with national healthcare.

What seems even more unbelievable. They have not become socialist countries because of it.
 

Jeremy+3

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bssage said:
One thing we seem to be completely missing. These people who are posting that have a national health care. Seem to be pretty content. At least more content than we are.

If I am understanding correctly. They say there were growing pains going into it. But in a general way they are OK with national healthcare.

What seems even more unbelievable. They have not become socialist countries because of it.
I always find people who use the socialist argument very funny, they clearly don't even understand what social actually means, at least if someone uses the socialist argument you can immediately ignore them as you know they're face too thick to listen to.

Some are pretty new systems as well, ours is old it was set up in 1948, as did many during the human rights agreement.

Of course there will be growing pains with everything, and some continued pain because no system will ever be perfect because no person is perfect. Interestingly the British NHS is now expanding into other countries, they're starting out in China, so it will be interesting to see how that works.

If you look at the rating of health care in different countries based on outcome most of the top 20 are national health systems, the US comes 37th after Colombia, Saudi Arabia, Dominica, Chile, there are some very poor countries in there performing much better than the US. Apart from the odd country almost all after the US are developing countries, that should not be the case.

This is quite an interesting graph, apart from the US all the health systems below are universal. Interestingly not only is the US health system the most expensive in the world based on GDP, but if you look at government spending on health the US still spends more per head than any other country.
 
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Testing

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bssage said:
Neither of you have answered my question. One of the big gripe's against is:

What are you suggesting. Is there a group of people who do not need healthcare?

Oh, no, everyone will have insurance. But that isn't the same thing as affordable access to health care. If I have insurance, but still can't afford my $4000 deductible and my $1000 per month before my insurance/discount (which is all it really is) applies at all, then I still don't really have access, do I?

Anyone can have anything if they can afford it. But this so-called Health Care plan does absolutely nothing to contain raging costs or the paperwork problem that is burying doctors and forcing them to go back to being hospital employees, instead of business owners. I was just reading today that everything attached to a hospital based practice is a minimum of 3X the cost. So, echocardiogram at private doctor's office might be $300, but when you are forced to go through hospital-owned places, the fee suddenly jumps to $1300 for the SAME procedure. We all know how hospitals charge $50 bucks for a Kleenex. Now, this is happening to everything.

My own doctor of 35 years is now in a hospital owned practice and fees have doubled. He isn't making twice the money though. The CEO makes millions.

It's just a scam system!
 

bssage

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Report Highlights – Active Policies Surveyed in February 2011:
The average monthly premium paid for individual policies was $183, while the average premium paid for family policies was $414.
Between February 2010 and February 2011, the average premium increased 9.6% for individuals and 5.6% for families.
The average deductible for individual policies was $2,935, and the average deductible for family policies was $3,879.
Between February 2010 and February 2011, the average deductible increased 11.5% for individual policies and 9.9% for families.
Half of all individual policyholders paid $149 or less per month in premiums, and half of all family policy holders paid $353 or less for monthly premiums.
The average plan lifetime limit per member was $4.2 million. This average applies only to policies with specified limits. Though provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will phase out lifetime limits for most covered medical services, this report surveys policies in effect as of February 2011.
The range of average monthly premiums paid for individual plans across the United States fell between $119 in Iowa and $382 in New York*.
The range of average monthly premiums paid for family plans across the United States fell between $261 in Iowa and $932 in New York*.
More than a third (37.9%) of individual plan policyholders had an annual deductible of $2,000 or less.
Between February 2010 and February 2011 the average age of policyholders increased by 1.9 years.
Over seventeen percent (17.3%) of all plans were HSA-eligible.
The average premium paid for HSA-eligible plans was $177 for individuals and $389 for families.
Almost 100% of individual or family plan policyholders selected plans that included lab and x-ray (98.9%) and emergency room coverage (99.9%).
The majority of individual and family plan policyholders purchased plans that covered prescription drugs (88.4%) and chiropractic coverage (72.4%).
Policyholders also tended to select plans that offered preventive care benefits like OB/GYN (92.0%), periodic exams (89.3%) and well baby coverage (88.3%).
I dont know where your information is from. I wont argue that it is unreasonable expensive. But I believe some of that will be addressed once the foundation is laid.

http://news.ehealthinsurance.com/pr/ehi/how-much-does-health-insurance-218305.aspx[/url]
 
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akmom

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One thing we seem to be completely missing. These people who are posting that have a national health care. Seem to be pretty content. At least more content than we are.

If I am understanding correctly. They say there were growing pains going into it. But in a general way they are OK with national healthcare.
The so-called Affordable Care Act is not a single-payer system. You're comparing apples to oranges. All the countries mentioned in this forum have a single-payer system, and what we have is a privatized system. The theoretical advantage of a private insurance industry is free market rates, as companies compete for customers. But that is not how it worked out, since insurance was and is mostly offered through employers, so the insurance companies are just competing for employers. Therefore individual rates are based on how big the company is (and therefore how much bargaining power it has) and not the needs and wants of individual customers. That has not changed with the Affordable Care Act. The only thing that has changed is an individual's ability to reject a plan if it doesn't suit them.

Inducing that because some plan worked in another country, we can expect an entirely different plan to work in ours, bypasses any critical thinking about the legislation.

They have not become socialist countries because of it.
 
What do you mean by this? Considering that most European countries and even the U.S. are modeling some form of democratic socialism, I would argue that is not the case. A country with socialized medicine does indeed practice some form of socialism. There isn't some definite point at which it becomes pure socialism; it's a gradient, and we are moving up on it. All human societies do over time. It's just the nature of society to evolve into larger, more centralized government. And it does have consequences. That's why we eventually have revolutions. That does not mean there is zero suffering or social unrest until that point at which the population revolts. The drafters of the Constitution (and the Articles of Confederation before that) sought a political model that would hold that inevitability at bay as long as possible. But that is outside the scope of the health care debate.

roughly 522.613 has access to healthcare facilities. Which indicates a fair percentage of the population has access to health care.
"Access to care" is a matter of perspective. I am nearly 100 miles from an in-network dentist, for example. I can still get dental care, but I don't have the same level of access as, say, someone living in the city of Anchorage. I am not reimbursed at the same rate when I use an out-of-network provider, and the in-network provider is not reasonably accessible. Residents of western Alaska, though they are not on the road system, can still medevac to a hospital in Alaska or Washington. But that differs from the timely and cost-effective access most other states enjoy. Point is, maybe I'd rather pay for my care directly than buy an insurance plan that ends up diverting most of the cost onto me anyway, because they didn't approve of my local selection.

The comparison to the population of Columbus, Ohio is equally irrelevant. If a state's population is "too small to matter" then it should be exempted from the federal law. Either accommodations should be made that cater to Alaska's unique health care challenges (which make it the most costly state in the nation for health care), or it should be given sovereignty to address the challenges itself. You can't have your cake and eat it too; you can't say a group of citizens is too small to warrant attention, but still expected to participate for the sake of conformity. But that's the logic behind state sovereignty and a key aspect of the libertarian stance; specific needs are better addressed at the local level than by a centralized government further removed from each area's unique challenges. (Thomas Jefferson addressed this phenomenon specifically when he complained that British laws were at odds with what was most wholesome and necessary for the colonists.)

And apparently http://www.hss.state.ak.us/healthcom...dout_final.pdf[/URL] is not aware of all the people who are not wanting healthcare.
Ironically, that same entity you cited determined that costs to the state could best be reduced by moving certain patients into managed outpatient care, versus using hospital facilities. Getting them privately insured was not offered as a solution to the health care spending conundrum. What I meant was that people don't always want care at the price it is being offered, or location, etc.

I am pretty sure the native people are already exempt.
They are already covered through the Indian Health Service. But 45% of all Alaskans with subsistence lifestyles are non-Native.
 

bssage

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Whew. OK, AK

I really don't think we are that far apart on this. It took me awhile to properly read your post. Then reread it. Then I thought I had better reread the whole thread. I think I have maintained all along that this (Obama Care) is not the best plan. And that it was only a start in the right direction. My plan when I read your last post was a huge: fantastic aw-inspiring: multi-quote response. This is the reason I try not to reply when I am overtired. I suspect that would have turned out bad for me. Further review of your latest and all the post's on this thread. A lot of what you are saying: probably most of what your saying: I do not disagree with. I do however want to explain myself on some of my earlier comments.

I was comparing Alaska Not because I know anything about Alaska. But rather because IMHO there is no resolution that will make everyone happy. That the net cast, is done with the majority in mind. I have no doubt your informed opinions trump my assumptions about Alaska. And while Alaska is a relatively small population center. That makes it no less important than other places in the country. If it is not addressed directly in the language of any law or bill. Alaska and places like that should have attention paid by way of a language that allows them to be addressed individually. The numbers I was throwing around were a combination of city/metro/and urban pop's.

My reference to socialism was not really a response to people posting on this thread. But rather the arguments I have heard in the media and online. My point was only that a national healthcare program will not turn us into a communist nation. I tried to make my point a couple of pages back. Not going to repeat the whole thing

Your post's have made me research more than I ever would have researched with out them. So thank you.

This is going to be a blend of opinion and what I have found researching stuff. You (AK) are correct about the single payer system. It was my impression that a single payer system is where we were at the start of the National Health Care debates. And that where we are now: is a compromise to get something passed so that everyone had some kind of coverage. Which I have been trying to establish: Would need to be a necessary first step to any true national healthcare. I don't necessarily think the program is right. But I do think the first step was necessary.

I am guessing you and I wont agree that national healthcare is the way to go. That's OK, AK (I just like typing that).

I think where you and I separate ways: is that you feel (Assumption) we should not have to have insurance at all. Or at least be required to have it. And have a pay as you go system. And I would say this is likely appealing to many people including myself. I would agree with that in a perfect world. But I don't think its realistic. I don't think its realistic to have no over-site in the healthcare industry. I do agree that we have taken that to far in many examples. And I agree it is a big driver in overall healthcare cost.. So I guess the short version is that I agree with you in theory only. I don't think most people have the savings to cover themselves. I especially don't think people will put money in the bank for a car wreck, a unforeseen medical condition. I anticipate people taking advantage of the population with unqualified: unsanitary: unnecessary procedures. And while I don't see a need for three years of training to give me a shot in the butt. I do see a need to have that someone who know's what to do should I react adversely to said shot.

I was just getting ready to type my assumptions of what you think we should do for healthcare. So I slammed on the brakes.

So my question to you: What do you propose the nation do for healthcare? If you have seen a plan you like just link it. I don't expect you to rewrite something that is already available.