Judge WIlliam: More fuel for the spanking debate...

[parentastic]

Have you seen this you-tube video that was released yesterday?

WARNING, please be careful, the video is very painful to watch, should you chose to do so. It may also triggers really nasty memories if you have lived similar things. <I>Please be careful</I>.

In this video, a young adult is publishing a video she recorded 7 years ago when she was 15 years old, of a beating she received with a belt from her father.

What's interesting about this terrible story is that:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• The father calls this "spanking", and in his mind, he is perfectly convinced this is not abuse</LI>
  <LI>
• When interviewed after the video release, he said that "it's not as bad as it looks on tape"</LI>
  <LI>
• The abuser is a Judge, Judge William, an Aransas Country judge from Texas. IN his professional life, William routinely has to take legal decisions on cases of abuses on minors (!) </LI>

</LIST>
I also think that seeing this video, as difficult as it may be, may help to take the measure of what it is to hit a child - for whatever the reason, with or without belt - when we look at it from an outside point of view. That outside view is a true neutral view: without our emotions of the moment, we can see the pain, the fear, the screams. Is this what we want for our children? Even at a lower scale, is this even acceptable, in any way, shape or form?

The fact that the father is a judge, knows the law of his country and state perfectly well, and still acts this way is also a powerful reminder that tolerance of spanking is an open door to abuse, IMO.

Yes, there is a big difference between a very small, symbolic, and unique slap on the butts of a 4 years old, and 17 leather belt strikes on a 16 years old with curses and name calling... of course. And yet, where do we draw the line? If even a judge can lose sight of what is or is not abuse, can this limit truly be defined?

And can the justice system be trusted when we are talking about a judge who has to apply the law to differentiate between "spanking" and "abuse" ? Can we trust the humans behind the law? This is why, IMO, it becomes much easier and clear when any form of spanking is banned, period.

So what do you parents think? Did seeing this video change something in you? What reflections did it triggered in you? Please share, if you'd like.

Nicolas, Family Life Educator

 

[mom2many]

I am not going to get into the spanking debate. I believe the occasion tap on the butt is acceptable.

However...this was something completely and entirely different. It's not as if dad walked in and gave her one smack (which I still wouldn't agree with, but wouldn't call it abuse) he beat her, to make her submissive...his words. Then the mother, the one who should have stepped in when dad lost his cool, went in and whopped her too! I get loosing our cool with our children, but even at my angriest that would not be acceptable.

The fact that he is a judge hold no bearing for me. He is human under that robe, and that means he is no different then anyone else. Yes, he sits in a position of authority, and probably really shouldn't. On the bench however it is his job to uphold the law as it is written. What he does at home...well that is his home. Do not get me wrong the man was out of line, way out of line, and he should (if laws were broken) be punished.

Spanking isn't the problem, no more then a dog crate that get's misused is the problem. People seem to have lost personal accountability....common sense, whatever people want to call it. No amount of laws is going to change that. I spank, when nothing else works and I mean nothing. A few have never been spanked cause there was never a need, a few others did because the standard forms had no impact with them. I will not let the government tell me what to do when it comes to making sure that my children grow into productive citizens. If the government wants to do that then they can continue to make bigger jails and house my children. Yep, without discipline that is what happens, how I discipline is my choice.

 

[parentastic]

What's interesting though (IMO) is that the man is convinced this was spanking, not abuse.
It ties in to Nancy M's argument earlier on another thread here that spanking is different depending on someone's definition.
Aren't every parent always convinced that whatever degree of force they use is always "not abuse" ?

 

[mom2many]

What's interesting though (IMO) is that the man is convinced this was spanking, not abuse.

I know, he also said that he recognized that he was angry. No matter how he spins it. Which direction he wants to take it, the truth is it was abuse. I think he knows that but is unwilling to admit it. If he admits it then he will no longer be to 'save' himself.

It ties in to Nancy M's argument earlier on another thread here that spanking is different depending on someone's definition.
Aren't every parent always convinced that whatever degree of force they use is always "not abuse" ?

I will agree and disagree, yes everyone has a different definition, that is true. However most supporters of spanking will tell you that any time an object is used it has stepped over the line. That does not mean that it isn't misued or abused. Yet again I point out that even time-outs can be misused, think children locked in rooms, basements crates. These parents were thinking time-outs...to the extreme just as this judge did when he says he was just spanking his DD.

 

[parentastic]

However most supporters of spanking will tell you that any time an object is used it has stepped over the line.

Yes, they is true - at least in canada, since this condition is clearly stated in the law. But when I saw this video...
Imagine the very same thing, but with an open hand instead of a belt.
Would it be better?
Because anyway I look at it... belt or not... the scream, the fear, the terror, the resentment, the injustice, the trauma, the begging for it stop... it would still be there, wouldn't it?
I don't know. It breaks my heart.

Yet again I point out that even time-outs can be misused, think children locked in rooms, basements crates.

Oh yes, BIG TIME.
I think time outs are just as damageable than punishment, and I agree that there are degrees to both spanking and time outs.
As far as I am concerned, and without getting into any law argument, I'd ban both

 

[mom2many]

Yes, they is true - at least in canada, since this condition is clearly stated in the law. But when I saw this video...
Imagine the very same thing, but with an open hand instead of a belt.
Would it be better?
Because anyway I look at it... belt or not... the scream, the fear, the terror, the resentment, the injustice, the trauma, the begging for it stop... it would still be there, wouldn't it?
I don't know. It breaks my heart.

My kids have never reacted that way to a spanking. In truth my 10 year old asked me to just spank him so he could just be done with it. I can not remember what happened and it wasn't something worth spanking over...dang what was it. Instead I laughed at him, that threw him off. Most spankers don't spank hard enough to really invoke that kinda fear.

Oh yes, BIG TIME.
I think time outs are just as damageable than punishment, and I agree that there are degrees to both spanking and time outs.
As far as I am concerned, and without getting into any law argument, I'd ban both

I don't use time out's often either, if I do it is more along the lines of "go to your room"...so mom can cool down or sit here until you are calm but always located within the family, never separate from us. Not cause I have a problem with them they usually aren't as effective as making them pick up leaves or taking tc/computer time away...even the 2 year old, although all she does is listen to you tube's phonics song over and over and over and over again:goofy: or pictures of monkeys on google images.

 

[camnjane]

The smacking debate... always an interesting one to get into as there are so many variations of what constitutes abuse. Combine this with parenting being the most rewarding job in the world but also one of the hardest with little or no training and it is not altogether hard to see why some people refer back to animal instinct and lash out to control a situation that is out of hand.

I myself will only ever resort to a smack on the butt only (never a naked butt) and not only is it my last resort but I feel absolutely terrible about it instantly. The smack always is meant to be symbolic too however honestly, sometimes it is harder than I intended. The great thing is that it hardly ever happens anyway. A firm but not painful hold on an arm that limits their movement, allows me to make eye contact and break the current pattern is normally all that is needed.

That is so different however to multiple strikes to a child often with far more excessive force than is required to make your point. That I do not agree with at all. Even tonight my family and I were out for dinner and a toddler at best was making trouble by not eating his dinner - gee that hardly ever happens! Anyway, I was shocked to see the mother slap him right in the back with a noise that bought everyone else to attention. She then proceeded to chastise this poor little mite for crying so loudly after it! Unbelievable and it was all I could do to not intervene. Maybe I should have...

 

[mom2many]

That is so different however to multiple strikes to a child often with far more excessive force than is required to make your point. That I do not agree with at all. Even tonight my family and I were out for dinner and a toddler at best was making trouble by not eating his dinner - gee that hardly ever happens! Anyway, I was shocked to see the mother slap him right in the back with a noise that bought everyone else to attention. She then proceeded to chastise this poor little mite for crying so loudly after it! Unbelievable and it was all I could do to not intervene. Maybe I should have...

When I see stuff like this I have no problem saying what I think, I've seen parents spank cause their little one wants a candy bar at the check out line..really? Or Parents beat a childs butt in a parking lot cause the parents were to lazy to get out and put their kids in properly and expected a 5 year old to do it..of course not right, she was 5 for christ sakes. No problem voicing my opinion there and voicing it loudly. Sorry but I just do not hold my tongue when I see parents who are less then stellar.

 

[NancyM]

I dont' think I could even watch it Parentastic, I know it will ruin my and just piss me off.

Hitting children as a form of discipline is wrong no matter what we call it. I've said before an occasional smack is not the same as spanking children regularly and I don't think any of us were talking about the occasional smack, or swat ( on the other spanking thread) .

When I talk about 'spanking' I'm referring to parents using it regularly, as a way of disciplining their kids, not occasionally.

Thank you Parentastic for remembering my input from my post that was nice.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

I'm not going to watch it. :no:

My opinion on spanking is strongly negative. It doesn't matter how hard you hit, or what tools and excuses you use. It is still physical violence, and for a civilized person that's a shame.
I don't condemn those parents who are poorly educated, have problems with emotion control, been treated this way themselves, after all, it isn't the worst thing that you can do to your child.

But those who are proud of it... make me sick. I have no respect for such people.

 

[alter ego]

What's interesting though (IMO) is that the man is convinced this was spanking, not abuse.
It ties in to Nancy M's argument earlier on another thread here that spanking is different depending on someone's definition.
Aren't every parent always convinced that whatever degree of force they use is always "not abuse" ?

Ive never once met a parent who thinks that they are abusing their child. Im a Mandatory Reporter and have had to deal with the issue many times.

And personally Im a 4th generation non-smacker. Im very proud that with our big family Ive never once smacked (Though when I was pregnant with twins, had a spirited toddler and 3yo climbing the walls, it was hard work to stay calm and guide them appropriately)