Loving parents, Unhappy children...

mom2many

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Interested in everyones thoughts, thanks MomoJA for an interesting topic...

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/14/loving-parents-unhappy-children/[/URL]
 

parentastic

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Jul 22, 2011
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Thank you for the link! I would suggest to read the original article instead of the article about the article :) There is also a video in which the psychologist is explaining her research.
Here is the link, of the admins will let me post it.

I'll read it (it is much more comprehensive than the first one) and will come back to post about it :) Thanks again!



Link allowed by M2m..
 
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MomoJA

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Feb 18, 2011
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I actually read the original before, but I didn't see the video. I found that very interesting first of all because I found what they were saying obvious as I'm sure a lot of people do. The article and the video, while not about spanking, support exactly my point in the other thread. I found a correlation between what they said about letting your children hate you sometimes, and character building.

I think this also supports what I was saying about research not replacing common sense. While I had not articulated it fully even in my own mind, I felt vindicated that the "experts" here suggested that to be well-adjusted, children need a reason to hate their parents on occasion in the same way that they need to be exposed to germs and viruses in order to build their immunities to them.
 
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Xero

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Its funny I actually know a guy like this. My ex boyfriend has the perfect parents, I always wished they were my parents haha. He will even admit to you that he was spoiled and doted upon, always supported 100% and his parents were amazing to him. They always loved and adored him and were there for him no matter what, and they CARED like CRAZY. They didn't judge him, he could tell them anything. The guy has never been spanked, not even sure if he'd ever been grounded, I don't think they even ever yelled at him. They were always there, always put him first above everything. He was a straight A student and took part in any extra curricular activity he wanted to (never a question of was he allowed, would he be supported, or would it be paid for etc). He had the perfect life, and this is not just an observation on my part, he has said this to me directly and will tell anybody the same thing.

However, he is TOTALLY messed up. He has done (and continues to do) every drug under the sun, sells drugs, dropped out of college, cuts himself, obsesses over death, and can't keep a relationship to save his life. On top of that, he's kind of a jerk. Don't get me wrong either, I'm not saying this stuff because he's my ex. We broke up when I was 16 LOL and have been friends ever since, so that stuff doesn't apply. He definitely has a lot of great qualities. I just find it baffling how messed up he is even though he was raised by a couple of the best parents I have ever met.

I just don't know! Its very interesting indeed. I'm in the process of reading the article.
 

parentastic

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Jul 22, 2011
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So I have read the whole original article, and there are many comments to say about it.

First, and perhaps that's one of the main difference between psychologist and family life educators - but we don't exactly use the same techniques nor come from the same background.
Psychologists concentrate on pathology and mental disease and they learn in depth as they go through 8-12 years of studies to get to the point where they start to have clinical patients.

Family Life Educators, on the other hand, go through approximately 3 years of studies and learn about development, neurobiology and social work, but we don't look at the "pathology" or mental illness problem. We intervene on family dynamics and we are trained to recognize patterns in advance and work on prevention. We are trained to intervene before the situation becomes critical, so increase the parent-child relationship or restore it.

More importantly, what matters is that we are trained to build and animate group workshops in which we draw from the parent's experiences. Everybody learns together, in a work group, share their examples, and apply what they learned. I don't tell parent's what the negative effects of spanking are: instead, I ask them to think about it and it is the parents who find the answers. Each passing week, my groups try what they have learned in their family and the next week, they report their successes and learn together from these shared experiences.

So it is VERY practical. My knowledge comes from my studies, yes, but MOSTLY from real practical life-experiences from people just like you, parents, and their answers are surprisingly consistent with my studies.
So let me tell you, as a family life educator (and not as a psychologist), how I read this article.

The point of the article is <U>not</U> that parents should sometime be hated by their children so that they would learn how this feels.. if this is what you got of this article, <U>you have missed the point completely</U>.

This is not about "perfect" parents - as I said, perfection is simply not possible when when you try to be. And in this case, these parents were not perfect: they were FAKE. They are fake because they are not respecting themselves. They are centered on the child exclusively, rather than centered on a balanced, respectful win-win relationship. They are ignoring their own needs.

In terms of professional jargon, these kids were raised in a "Laissez-faire" parenting style: they had everything they wanted, every-time, they never learned to struggle for what they really wanted. They never developed their autonomy, because everything has always been easy for them. This is not perfect parenting, even if such thing was possible!

You will never ever see me promote this kind of parental behavior. A parent's job is to teach children to become autonomous, well adjusted, empowered individuals who developed internal motivation, and the drive to seek their goals and work for it. These kids never needed internal motivation, so now they are at a loss when they are adults. But this is not because their parents had a good relationship with them! It's fantastic that they had a strong and trusting relationship with their parents. What is bad is that they learned that they are worth being respected and listened, but they never learned that they also have to respect and listen to others around them.

Not using spanking (or any punishment) has therefore NOTHING to do with not holding them accountable for their acts and letting them do as they please.

In the thread "alternatives to spanking" I am offering some suggestions as to how a parent can use reparation and empowerment to help their children grow and to handle misbehavior, without using punishment. The children in this article never were raised with such tools. They were offered everything they wanted, and the "solution" was always found and made easy by mom or dad. This is the very opposite of what I suggest: I suggest that children should be empowered to find their own solutions in order to repair what they caused and gain or regain the respect from people around them.

In one word: the best parenting is happening when we use parenting practices that favor a strong relationship and increase the quality of the parent-child attachment link. But in no way does that mean that your child life has to be as easy as possible.
The human brain learns by experience. To learn to walk, you need to learn to fall. But you will learn to walk faster and better if you have a loving parent, rather than a distant or cold one, to encourage you to stand up and try again when you fall - not to prevent you from falling. That's how it works.

I hope the distinction was made clear.
If I can answer any question, please let me know :)

Nicolas, Family Life Educator
 

MomoJA

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parentastic said:
The point of the article is <U>not</U> that parents should sometime be hated by their children so that they would learn how this feels.. if this is what you got of this article, <U>you have missed the point completely</U>.
I think you have missed the point of my response.

Let me just say that I don't think that I am so simplistic. I don't think my understanding of the article is so simplistic, just as the concept of what was meant by children sometimes hating their parents is not as simplistic as the words. But to be clear, I absolutely believe that if a child doesn't sometimes "hate" his or her parents, (without going into a dissertation of what that word represents here) then something is wrong.

parentastic said:
This is not about "perfect" parents - as I said, perfection is simply not possible when when you try to be. And in this case, these parents were not perfect: they were FAKE. They are fake because they are not respecting themselves. They are centered on the child exclusively, rather than centered on a balanced, respectful win-win relationship. They are ignoring their own needs.
As for this not being about "perfect" parents, I would totally agree because such a thing is NOT possible, which was a major point I was making in the other thread and why I brought up this article. Your children are going to be annoyed or angry by you at some point if they are human, and they may end up on a couch somewhere even if you don't spank and you do just about everything right according to current psychology.

As for these parents being fake, I don't think you can fairly make that judgement based on a summary from a person who spoke to the children of these parents and not the parents themselves, and who isn't referring to any specific person but a trend of what his or her patients have been describing. As for the parents ignoring their own needs, maybe some are, maybe some "need" to invest themselves completely in their children, maybe this is the perception of some of the children and it is far from the reality, and so on.

I don't even think these parents are necessarily laissez-faire. When I read the article, I had a different parent in mind, some I know, and they are not laissez-faire parents. They are basically very good parents who read all the parenting books, would never have dreamed of spanking, and managed to never raise their voices, but their kids, my friends, are not happy.

parentastic said:
In one word: the best parenting is happening when we use parenting practices that favor a strong relationship and increase the quality of the parent-child attachment link. But in no way does that mean that your child life has to be as easy as possible.
The human brain learns by experience. To learn to walk, you need to learn to fall. But you will learn to walk faster and better if you have a loving parent, rather than a distant or cold one, to encourage you to stand up and try again when you fall - not to prevent you from falling. That's how it works.
At the risk of sounding rude, and because I think there has been a good bit of condescension from start to finish here, I'm going to say to this, No duh!

And now, I <I><U>honestly</U></I> don't mean this to sound rude, but I think the distinction that was lost was lost by you, and it was about spanking being a crime, not about other means of parenting not being good and better than spanking. I respect what you do, and you make some excellent points and give some good advice, but I believe your take on spanking is - yes I'm going to say it and hope it doesn't offend you too much - total hysteria. But I will add that you are in good company.
 
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parentastic

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MomoJA said:
I think you have missed the point of my response. Let me just say that I don't think that I am so simplistic.
Hey, it's very possible that I missed your point... :err:
It wouldn't be the first time, communication on delicate debates aren't the easiest on a forum. Please assume I am in good faith here, not trying to assume anything about you.

MomoJA said:
But to be clear, I absolutely believe that if a child doesn't sometimes "hate" his or her parents, (without going into a dissertation of what that word represents here) then something is wrong.
I get the gist of what you are saying here, and I also agree. I see it as an unavoidable effect of proper parenting at times, something to minimize (not something desirable), but still unavoidable sometimes.

MomoJA said:
As for this not being about "perfect" parents, I would totally agree because such a thing is NOT possible, which was a major point I was making in the other thread and why I brought up this article.
Yes, I gathered that. But what I don't get is why you think that a parent who bans spanking from his set of parenting tools should be labelled "perfect"? In other words, I am not sure I understand the link between the other thread and this one, as I don't see the "perfection" anywhere in using alternatives to spanking...

MomoJA said:
Your children are going to be annoyed or angry by you at some point if they are human, and they may end up on a couch somewhere even if you don't spank and you do just about everything right according to current psychology.
Okay, so now I get a bit more perhaps what you are trying to say.
Perhaps the reason we are arguing here, is that you seem to see "psychology" as some sort of monolithic set of "rules of perfection" that you can follow or not follow. The author of the article certainly presents it as such, but it is a gross simplification. There are many school of thoughts in psychology and even a professional psychologist who would want to "follow what psychology says" will take many, many decisions about what to follow or not to follow. It's not that simple.
Spanking is one of the clear practice that all the school of thoughts and all of the psychology agrees is negative for a child, on many different levels (that I haven't begin to explain here). But for many other things, it's not that simple.

To make it simple: psychology helps us know what has negative consequences, and what not to do. But it is a much, much more complicated task to find out what to do than what not to do.

MomoJA said:
They are basically very good parents who read all the parenting books, would never have dreamed of spanking, and managed to never raise their voices, but their kids, my friends, are not happy.
I do not contest this, MomoJA.
All I am saying is that there aren't one single parenting manual that covers it all. In fact, in my workshops, there are specific books I recommend and we spend some time reviewing the very bad books from the good ones.. 90% of the parenting books you will find on the shelves in your local bookstore is <U>utter crap</U>.
And yet many are written by PhDs... it's not because they are written by psychologist that they follow the proper principles. Yeah, I know it's confusing, and here I am pretending I know my stuff!
All I can say is, I work with successes. Not with theories.

MomoJA said:
At the risk of sounding rude, and because I think there has been a good bit of condescension from start to finish here...
I wasn't aware that it might have been perceived that way, but please accept my sincere apologies if this is how it came out. I assure you from my side of things, there isn't a single ounce of condescension.

MomoJA said:
And now, I <I><U>honestly</U></I> don't mean this to sound rude, but I think the distinction that was lost was lost by you, and it was about spanking being a crime, not about other means of parenting not being good and better than spanking.
I am glad you are taking the time to explain this. For me, this thread is about "perfect parenting" (or whatever that might mean) and why the parenting described by this article cannot work well, and the other thread is about alternatives to parenting - even if we went offtrack with the legality of it.

MomoJA said:
I respect what you do, and you make some excellent points and give some good advice, but I believe your take on spanking is - yes I'm going to say it and hope it doesn't offend you too much - total hysteria. But I will add that you are in good company.
I am not offended and I thank you for your honest opinion :)
Hopefully, I don't make the laws and so the debate on this is slightly moot, but I <U>am</U> sincerely interested to hear your point of view on this. So what makes it hysterical? I'd like to understand.
For instance, during many years, parents who were angry or mad routinely shook their babies. We now know that this is dangerous for a baby (baby shake syndrome) and it is considered a criminal act. Was that hysteria also? I'd like to understand where you draw the line - although this could rather go in the other thread.

Be well,
Nicolas, Family life educator.
 

MomoJA

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Feb 18, 2011
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parentastic said:
For instance, during many years, parents who were angry or mad routinely shook their babies. We now know that this is dangerous for a baby (baby shake syndrome) and it is considered a criminal act. Was that hysteria also? I'd like to understand where you draw the line - although this could rather go in the other thread.
Shaken Baby Syndrome is a physiological side effect of shaking the baby. The baby's brain is damaged in the same way a baby's brain would be damaged if you accidently dropped him on his head.

Before I can explain further the difference, I need to know if you think spanking produces a similar result.
 

MomoJA

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Feb 18, 2011
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parentastic said:
Yes, I gathered that. But what I don't get is why you think that a parent who bans spanking from his set of parenting tools should be labelled "perfect"? In other words, I am not sure I understand the link between the other thread and this one, as I don't see the "perfection" anywhere in using alternatives to spanking...
I don't. My point was that if you want to criminalize spanking, then you need to criminalize a whole lot of other parenting. Your point was that spanking hinders development and that's why it should be criminal. The article was about parents who didn't spank, were supportive and encouraging, who listened, and with whom their children couldn't find fault, but who still landed their children in therapy. Are they criminals?

You say they were laissez-faire parents. Is that a criminal offense as well?
 

parentastic

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MomoJA said:
Shaken Baby Syndrome is a physiological side effect of shaking the baby. The baby's brain is damaged in the same way a baby's brain would be damaged if you accidently dropped him on his head.
Yes, we agree on this.

Before I can explain further the difference, I need to know if you think spanking produces a similar result.
Spanking does not produce physiological damage (although it depends of course on the definition of spanking, which is why in Canada it is illegal on the head and with any object). But let's assume for the sakes of argument here that we are not talking about s spanking that leaves makes on the skin or that causes physical injuries.

However, do you consider psychological damages the same way you consider physiological damage? After all, a broken arm does heal. So will some of the psychological damage of spanking, unless it is too severe or too repetitive. Yet breaking the arm of a child is still considered child abuse.

Do you <I>know</I> what the psychological damages are for children who are spanked repetitively or severely? (and yes, I realize there is whole spectrum of degree here, but let's at least try to agree on the fundamentals before we get to the nuances?)
 

MomoJA

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parentastic said:
However, do you consider psychological damages the same way you consider physiological damage? After all, a broken arm does heal. So will some of the psychological damage of spanking, unless it is too severe or too repetitive. Yet breaking the arm of a child is still considered child abuse.
Okay, now we are getting somewhere. No, I do not consider the "psychological" "damage" of spanking the same as physiological damage or physical harm. I consider it the same psychological damage that a child experiences when his or her parent expresses disappointment. Etc.

parentastic said:
Do you <I>know</I> what the psychological damages are for children who are spanked repetitively or severely? (and yes, I realize there is whole spectrum of degree here, but let's at least try to agree on the fundamentals before we get to the nuances?)
Now you are talking about physical abuse. I'm not talking about physical abuse. I'm talking about spanking. If you want to understand the nuances here, would you equate time-out with locking a child in a basement? Would you equate pointing out good behavior in one child as a model of how to behave with cruelly showing preference for one child over another? Would you equate sending a child to bed one night without supper with withholding food from a child for a week? Would you equate ignoring a child who is interrupting with completely ignoring a child?

There is a difference between spanking and physcial abuse. I don't think you'll find a sane parent anywhere who would support physical abuse or locking a child in a basement or showing preference for one child over another or withholding food for weeks or completely ignoring a child. But I think good parents can quibble about those other means of discipline and still be good parents.
And I don't think they should be arrested because you or I disagree with their means of parenting.
 
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Phildye

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I think too many parents try to give their children everything and fail to set boundaries. A child without boundaries is an unhappy child. My experience is that kids love having fair boundaries set for them. It stops them having to work out their own rules which is really too much to expect from a young child.

Phil Dye: author
 
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