Mr. Sassy Pants...

[stjohnjulie]

Luca has started getting really sassy and mean recently. I think that this is what his dad has been talking about for awhile now, but it has never been directed at me, so I need some help trying to figure out how to handle it. His dad has a bad temper and I don't really know what goes on with them when I am not around, but I can only imagine. He has a short explosive temper and Luca has always had those tendencies as well. In the past, I have always just shut it down by not feeding into it. The problem seems to be that he gets very angry over something small and then it snowballs from there. In the past, sending him to his room (removing him from the rest of us and all stimuli) to regain composure has worked. Now he is refusing to go into his room or being destructive once he gets there. It has only happened a few times, but that is three times too much in my book.

Some other factors that need to be mentioned... I have split custody with his dad. The outbreaks tend to happen right before he is to go to dads house. Recently, dad started to not enforce any kind of punishment I put into place. Now he is 'superdad' and for the first time ever Luca says "You are nicer than mom" and he is loving it. I mean really loving it. To the point that he is almost rewarding Luca for being mean to me. I have to note I AM NOT GOING TO CHANGE HIS DAD. There is nothing I can say or do that will change his father, so we can just skip over any suggestions that have anything to do with him.

Where we are at now is that we (me, my husband, and Luca) are thinking about some consequences for this kind of sassy talk. We are all going to sit down and talk about some consequences, then I will pick a consequence, and moving forward, this will happen when he starts to talk sassy or mean. I'm guessing that whatever we decide on will probably have to change or adapt in someway in the future, but we need a starting point. I think that if Luca knows what will happen before the words come out of his mouth it will help him with impulse control. That's my hope anyhow! It's the whole snowball effect that seems to be the problem. He will just continue to get angrier and angrier and lose control.

One thing that I have already decided is Disney Chanel is out. The shows like iCarly, Suite Life, etc. seem to have a lot of this disrespectful talk in them and it's meant to be funny. It's just not funny in real life!

Some of the things that I've though of already are taking away electronics. Maybe one day for each mouth off? And one hour in his room for every mean thing he says. THANKS FOR ANY SUGGESTIONS!!!

 

[mom2many]

A few questions before I feel I can answer this...

Are we talking about emotional responses; I hate you? Dad is better then you? I don't wanna!

Or are we talking about out right back talking? They are 2 very different things in my book.

Emotional response do not get punished in my house. I would never punish a child for how they feel. Instead I try to channel it and talk about it. If I am understanding you he got upset about something and when sent to his room he proceeded to be destructive? If he was sent to his room for his "feelings" being hurt he would not be punished. He would be punished for being destructive though, usually that behavior entails manual labor, even at his age. I hope I am explaining this right, coffee is slow to the brain this morning .

For outright back talking, they are first warned and told what will happen if they do it again. If 5 minutes later they do it again they will get into trouble. Let's say however that the next back talking episode happens 3 hours later, they are only warned again.

My reason behind that is simple, they are kids and well into adulthood they will constantly have to be reminded. As adults we forget things so I do not expect them to get it right every time. I also have no intentions of squashing what they are feeling, it is their feelings and they have every right to them. I do try to help guide those feelings of injustice. Of course it isn't fair and at their age it is pretty black and white, they really haven't learned that there are many grey area's and that life isn't always fair cause when they are little we work very hard at giving them fairness. There does though come a point where they see it differently...ok, they are all individuals, so fairness for one child may not be true for another.

My house is far from back talk free, even the "adult" kids still do it but thankfully at their age they are easier to reason with. Little ones have a logic all their own and for them it is perfectly reasonable, even if we <I>don't</I> get it LOL

 

[IADad]

ds2 has tendencies more this way and I think you're right, to set forth the consequences and follow through. I disagree slightly withm2m on the expression of feelings. I think kids need to learn the proper time place and ways of expressing themselves. It's not appropriate if I'm mad at a customer to just tell them what I feel. We all need to learn those boundaries and I think kids also need to learn that like it or not sometimes the parents are just right, period. Now, I try extra hard to deal with irrational outbursts with extra calm rational reactions. I don't think a day without electronics is too harsh. I'd think about whether you want to banish to the room thing. I try to keep their rooms good places, not prisons, and should we really be surprised they retreat there as teens if we send them there as kids?

I know you said you aren't going to change dad, but I think you need to at least fire one shot across his bow, a "do you realize how much damage you are doing my letting him do as he pleases?" "Are you going to be the one to fix it when he get's busted in HS?" "You don't have to crack down on everything but be consist with him, give him some direction and order."

 

[stjohnjulie]

I was talking with my husband (again!) about all of this yesterday. There are certainly different levels of 'offenses' so to speak, and the consequences need to be different depending on what it is.

M2M, it usually starts off with something like..."time to brush your teeth" and refusing to do it and saying "why". Then will get to the point of him getting really mad and saying the emotional things. If he said "dad is nicer than you." That isn't necessarily a bad thing in my book. It's just a statement of how he feels. "I hate you" is another thing. That goes into the <I>I'm saying this untrue thing to intentionally hurt your feelings.</I> book. And I do believe that should have a consequence. He says an awful lot of things when he is angry and he needs to know that you cannot say things like this just because you are mad. These are the things I am most worried about. These are the things that get you a$$ kicked when you are older. Not by me!! but by your peers and others you encounter in daily life as a young man.

After thinking about all of this more, I think my goal is to try and set in place consequences that are in line with the natural consequences he will have for behaving this way as an adult. If he says mean, intentionally hurtful things, then he needs to be isolated from the rest of the family for awhile. Just like when you are an adult and you are mean to other people they wont want to be around you. If he refuses to do something that is his responsibility, then he loses a privilege/freedom of some sort. Does that make sense???

I was also going to have a warning first. We are going to decide on something to say, like "I'm not in the mood for that right now" or something like that, before we start with the consequences. Because we do joke around a lot and tend to be very sarcastic. But there is a time for that, and a time to just brush your teeth already!

IADad, I have been trying to work with his dad for a very long time. He absolutely refuses to take any responsibility for the way Luca acts. I have told him many many times that he needs to get control of his anger. He tells me over and over again that "that is how people are" where he grew up. That's just the way they do it, and there is nothing wrong with it. I lived with his anger for long enough to know that it really sucks. I was always on egg shells and pretty much stopped talking to him because everything seemed to set him off. He has a very explosive temper (not physical, just yelling) that you could literally feel. I could go on and on about Luca's dad, but you just wouldn't believe what I am saying. He has good in him.... but he is what I call a 'fart in the wind'. You just never know what you are going to get when you are dealing with him. When he is totally out of line, I will tell him, but I will also have to deal with months of being the target for his anger. I've been trying to bring out his good for 12 years and I am still no closer than when I set out on the mission. As much as I hate to admit it, I have given up on him. I've moved on to 'how to deal with what I've got' mode.

 

[MomoJA]

He sounds a lot like a typical kid his age, but I'm in no way suggesting that makes it all right and that you shouldn't address it. It sounds like you've come up with some good ways of handling the sassiness.

My daughter is only 4, but I already see sassiness in her. It's not like what you describe, but she has a bit of spunk in her which was apparent at the age of 1, hence her nickname, Tiger. I'm predicting a pretty harrowing phase in a few years, and I'm trying to figure out a way to head this one off at the pass.

I agree with what you've said about the "I hate you" thing. It is okay to be mad at someone, but just say that. Don't try to come up with the worst thing you can think of to say that doesn't even have an ounce of truth in it anyway. It's the same sort of motivation behind hitting. We are already dealing with this in my little family.

One thing that I have already decided is Disney Chanel is out. The shows like iCarly, Suite Life, etc. seem to have a lot of this disrespectful talk in them and it's meant to be funny. It's just not funny in real life!

I totally agree and it is a crying shame!! Even the G-rated movies have scenarios in them that promote an attitude I don't want my daughter to have.

And even things that aren't necessarily disrespectful she picks up on. She saw one ad on TV for Rio, and at some point a character said, "Awkward!" Now she says it. It really isn't attractive on a 4.5 year old.

 

[mom2many]

ds2 has tendencies more this way and I think you're right, to set forth the consequences and follow through. I disagree slightly withm2m on the expression of feelings. I think kids need to learn the proper time place and ways of expressing themselves. It's not appropriate if I'm mad at a customer to just tell them what I feel. We all need to learn those boundaries and I think kids also need to learn that like it or not sometimes the parents are just right, period. Now, I try extra hard to deal with irrational outbursts with extra calm rational reactions. I don't think a day without electronics is too harsh. I'd think about whether you want to banish to the room thing. I try to keep their rooms good places, not prisons, and should we really be surprised they retreat there as teens if we send them there as kids?

I know you said you aren't going to change dad, but I think you need to at least fire one shot across his bow, a "do you realize how much damage you are doing my letting him do as he pleases?" "Are you going to be the one to fix it when he get's busted in HS?" "You don't have to crack down on everything but be consist with him, give him some direction and order."

I agree IAdad, that as adults we can not behave that way. Now what I say is from personal experience more then anything and what I have observed with my own kids....so it is obviously going to be different for everyone. Ok where was I going....

Kids naturally learn the appropriate place and time naturally, a progression as they become older. I wasn't saying that pointing them in the right direction isn't what I do, but I do not punish for feelings. Even the "I hate you's" hold no weight with me, maybe cause after 8 kids I just don't care, hate me till you're blue in the face.

M2M, it usually starts off with something like..."time to brush your teeth" and refusing to do it and saying "why". Then will get to the point of him getting really mad and saying the emotional things. If he said "dad is nicer than you." That isn't necessarily a bad thing in my book. It's just a statement of how he feels. "I hate you" is another thing. That goes into the <I>I'm saying this untrue thing to intentionally hurt your feelings.</I> book. And I do believe that should have a consequence. He says an awful lot of things when he is angry and he needs to know that you cannot say things like this just because you are mad. These are the things I am most worried about. These are the things that get you a$$ kicked when you are older. Not by me!! but by your peers and others you encounter in daily life as a young man.

This isn't sass in my book, it's boundary testing. That's why I wanted a little more before I answered. I will answer 2 times the 3rd time you will do it because I said so. Plain and simple and as previously stated; hate me all you want, I can't and won't make you love me. If I am loved all the time I am not doing my job. Also kids will say things to their parents that they would never say to another human being because they KNOW their parents will always love them and be there for them not so of everyone else...I promise he will not go around telling strangers he hates them.

After thinking about all of this more, I think my goal is to try and set in place consequences that are in line with the natural consequences he will have for behaving this way as an adult. If he says mean, intentionally hurtful things, then he needs to be isolated from the rest of the family for awhile. Just like when you are an adult and you are mean to other people they wont want to be around you. If he refuses to do something that is his responsibility, then he loses a privilege/freedom of some sort. Does that make sense???

I was also going to have a warning first. We are going to decide on something to say, like "I'm not in the mood for that right now" or something like that, before we start with the consequences. Because we do joke around a lot and tend to be very sarcastic. But there is a time for that, and a time to just brush your teeth already!

I like natural consequence, just no isolation but sometimes kids just need to be sent to their rooms.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

some of my thoughts on the topic.

He got a baby brother quite recently, and he has been an only child for a really long time. Probably he's dealing with the change (plus divorced parents).
Maybe he is simply missing your attention? Negative attention is still attention. If he says stuff like "I hate you", certainly he doesn't mean that, he wants your reaction. Would you reward him with such attention, if he would just go and brush his teeth? Now you at least get angry, offended and worried.

 

[stjohnjulie]

TN, that is definitely something that I have thought about...have been thinking about. Baby brother. I've been watching that very very carefully. I'm sure that has a little to do with it, but I am guessing this is something else. Luca has done this before, and does it all the time with dad. And I was never married to his dad. We did live together until Luca was 5, and I know that he does not want me to be with his dad. (which kind of surprises me because I would think that would be a natural thing for a kid to want)

I do have to report... yesterday was a stellar day. Luca made some great progress on his pigsty of a room. He just ticked away at it all day until he had it presentable. And all I had to say is, "Luca, it's time." I told him repeatedly what a good job he was doing and then again at the end of the day that I really was proud of him for accepting responsibility and doing what he knew had to be done.

Luca had a ton of pressure the last couple of weeks of school. He was away for 2.5 weeks in May to visit his sister and new niece in Sweden, and had lots of tests to do when he got home. Plus two big projects. I think he was feeling the pressure and it started to spill out on to everything.

I'm feeling a little better about things, and I think he is too. Now that he is feeling a little more centered, I'm going to see if I can get him to talk to me about what was going on and how it feels to get that angry and see if he has any idea how to control it.

Thanks everybody. It sure does help to have some other parents to talk to

 

[IADad]

Good news! just wanted to add that I'd think about whether you want to use a phrase like "I'm not in the mood to hear that today." It makes it seem like maybe the behavior is okay somethimes and not other and that it's okay for people to pick and choose appropriate behavior. My phrases are "I'm sorry, I can't have to talking like that. It's disrspectful and hurtful, so you can go think about your words, I love you, but I won't tolerate this behavior." I try to separate the "love for the person," and my intolerance for bad behavior, so they get that me correcting them, and teaching them right from wrong is actually part of loving them. I think this is especially powerful when they throw "hate" at you. "Oh really, you hate me? Well I love you, and I love you so much I'm going to help you learn to deal with things a better way...."

 

[stjohnjulie]

I see what you mean IADad. I guess what I was trying to say is sometimes we are silly and sarcastic with one another and it's funny. Other times it's not....like when only one of us is doing it and the other person isn't in the mood for it. I understand that it's probably not the best kind of sense of humor, but I have to own up to it. Everyone in my family is like that and I have realized that I need to tone that down a bit because not everyone appreciates it the way we do. So I was trying to think of a way to say, 'there is a time and place for this' without having to ditch my sense of humor all together (which would be very difficult). I guess I just see a difference between something said tongue in cheek and something that is meant to be down right hurtful. I think I'm going to have think about that more.

 

[IADad]

understood - teaching and dealing with young senses of humor is difficult. We want them to be fun, funny little people, but when they do it at the wrong times, they riskk us coming down on them, it's a tough balancing act, but ultimately a life lesson. We all learn when certain types of conversations, certain actions, certain jokes are appropriate and not, and even as adults we mess that up sometimes.

 

[mom2many]

We are a sarcastic group also and it takes work getting them to understand when it is ok and when it isn't. I think some it just comes with maturity.

 

[kdryan]

When Alexander misbehaves or spouts off, I generally ignore it, send him to his room, or in extreme cases will punish him by removing privileges (TV, video games, etc...). When he comes of with something like 'You're mean!' I will generally respond by ignoring it or with something like 'Well that sucks, doesn't it.' I haven't got an 'I hate you' yet, but I'm sure it will come. Olivia for some reason is really laid back and generally just does what she is told.

Sorry, I know that's not too helpful, but that's all I have right now.

 

[stjohnjulie]

We are a sarcastic group also and it takes work getting them to understand when it is ok and when it isn't. I think some it just comes with maturity.

This is a tough one! I have a hard time with this because I tend to be very sarcastic. But I am also pretty shy and will only be like this with people whom I know very well. And I don't do it when I can tell when people aren't in the mood for it. But I can still screw that up sometimes. Guess it's hard to expect a kid to know when it's ok and when it's not all of the time. That's why I was thinking of using a 'stop' phrase or word to let Luca know that 'now isn't the time for that'.

We went out for dinner on Tuesday for Luca's birthday...me, my husband, Luca's dad, and another adult friend. While we were sitting at the table my ex said "xxx said for us to call her when we were at dinner so she can tell you happy birthday." and Luca didn't want to do it. So my ex called the person and tried to force Luca to talk to her. I thought this was ridiculous personally. He doesn't like to talk on the phone and that is not news to any of us. It became a big ordeal with his dad getting mad and Luca getting really mad. Luca got up and went outside and sat down. Which, I thought was the better choice. I mean, instead of getting into a screaming match with his dad in the restaurant. I went out to talk to him and he wasn't talking, so I came back in. I told everyone to just leave him alone and he would come back when he was ready. He came back in, sulked for a minute, then recovered and we ended up having a fine evening. I really think that he just needs time to himself so he can calm down. I'm glad that he was able to know what it is he needs to do to catch himself and just do it. Would it be better if he could just be nice and polite, yes, but I still choose walking away instead of a big blow up.

 

[IADad]

Well bravo Luca for handling that so well, and boo to dad, what the heck, isn't that the social equivalent of feeding him spinach (or whatever he hates) on his birthday?

That example seems to say that you're successful in teaching him some skills to deal with his frustration, it seems like dad is the source of lots of frustration and since you can't change dad, about all you can do is try to limit his exposure to the bare minimum allowed by your custody arrangements. I know that sounds harsh, and I don't feel very good recommending it, but I'm not seeing another solution. Otherwise just keep reinforcing ways for him to deal with situations he's not comfortable in. You don't have to make an example of dad, you can be generic, and empathize that there are situations we all face, that cause us problems, and the one thing we can control is our reaction. I've used that with both boys, a little softer way of saying "just deal with it" that seems to make a certain amount of sense to them if you keep reinforcing it.

 

[mom2many]

This is a tough one! I have a hard time with this because I tend to be very sarcastic. But I am also pretty shy and will only be like this with people whom I know very well. And I don't do it when I can tell when people aren't in the mood for it. But I can still screw that up sometimes. Guess it's hard to expect a kid to know when it's ok and when it's not all of the time. That's why I was thinking of using a 'stop' phrase or word to let Luca know that 'now isn't the time for that'.

I don't know that I had a stop phrase so much as I would just point out that 'now' was not the time or the place for it. Usually they would get the hint (except Sam who is like a dog with a bone) and over time they would just start to recognize things like body language and the tone of my voice. They are never this way with people they just met or didn't know and really it was mainly in the home so that's why I felt I could be patient with them.

We went out for dinner on Tuesday for Luca's birthday...me, my husband, Luca's dad, and another adult friend. While we were sitting at the table my ex said "xxx said for us to call her when we were at dinner so she can tell you happy birthday." and Luca didn't want to do it. So my ex called the person and tried to force Luca to talk to her. I thought this was ridiculous personally. He doesn't like to talk on the phone and that is not news to any of us. It became a big ordeal with his dad getting mad and Luca getting really mad. Luca got up and went outside and sat down. Which, I thought was the better choice. I mean, instead of getting into a screaming match with his dad in the restaurant. I went out to talk to him and he wasn't talking, so I came back in. I told everyone to just leave him alone and he would come back when he was ready. He came back in, sulked for a minute, then recovered and we ended up having a fine evening. I really think that he just needs time to himself so he can calm down. I'm glad that he was able to know what it is he needs to do to catch himself and just do it. Would it be better if he could just be nice and polite, yes, but I still choose walking away instead of a big blow up.

Why do people do that to kids? If they don't want to talk they don't want to talk.

 

[IADad]

Why do people do that to kids? If they don't want to talk they don't want to talk.

I know what you mean, every now and then I try to stop and think, would I interact with another adult that way, or a co-worker? I know that thinking doesn't apply in every circumstance, as parents we do have to communicate unique messages to our children, but a lot of times it's unnecessary, and I really catch myself (of DW) and think my gosh, why am I talking to this little person this way...I feel bad for doing it at all, but petty glad that I'm at least aware of it enough to catch myself and change my behavior sometimes.

 

[mom2many]

I agree, there are things where we need to "force" the issue and then there are things like giving someone a hug or talking on the phone that are just not something I feel a child should be forced to do. It's a boundary thing for me and even children should be able to place some boundary's.

 

[singledad]

It became a big ordeal with his dad getting mad and Luca getting really mad. Luca got up and went outside and sat down. Which, I thought was the better choice. I mean, instead of getting into a screaming match with his dad in the restaurant. I went out to talk to him and he wasn't talking, so I came back in. I told everyone to just leave him alone and he would come back when he was ready. He came back in, sulked for a minute, then recovered and we ended up having a fine evening. I really think that he just needs time to himself so he can calm down. I'm glad that he was able to know what it is he needs to do to catch himself and just do it. Would it be better if he could just be nice and polite, yes, but I still choose walking away instead of a big blow up.

Well done Luca! I think it shows a lot of maturity that he was able to recognize that he needed to walk away, and did so. That is something that even some adults can't do. Sure you would want him to rather be polite, but this is a huge step in the right direction.

 

[stjohnjulie]

I myself have major phone phobia. So Luca could have some learned behavior on that, but still... it was just stupid. I mean, we were at a RESTAURANT and we were all sitting at the table, and in my opinion, that is no place for a cell phone unless you are a doctor on call or your kids are at home with the sitter, ie emergencies.

And the hug thing... his dad will do that too. He would yell at him over something and then say "come give me a hug" and it gave me the creeps. I have told his dad that I think that is just plain sick. I'm not sure if he does that any more, but I know he doesn't do it when I'm around. I do NOT think for a second that there is any kind of sexual abuse going on... it just gives me the creeps in the same kind of way.

IADad, I don't know if I could cut back on how much time they spend together. We have split custody, that we agreed on. (no courts were ever involved because we were never married and we worked thing out on our own) Dad has been saying he is moving for the past 10 years, and I think his recent 'superdad' behavior is because he is trying to get Luca to want to go with him. I'm not going to let that happen. I'm sure I will be posting about that sometime in the near future. I think his dad might actually make true on the threat sometime in the next year. We'll see!!!!