Positive discipline is school...

[parentastic]

I have been talking about positive parenting and positive discipline for quite a while on this forum, sometimes with success but also sometimes with frustration (against myself) for not really being able to convey it well.

Today, I read this amazing articles about a High School, Lincoln High School in Walla (WA), where they decided to try the positive discipline approach.
Their suspension rate dropped <I>85%</I>!

So I wanted to share this article with you and I would be curious to hear what you all think about it.

 

[mom2many]

I think that the article shows how much most schools "one size fits all", "zero tolerance" actually hurts the students in the long run. How that principal deals with his students is how my old high school dealt with us.

It's shame that schools have forgotten that behind every student is a real life human being.

 

[parentastic]

It's shame that schools have forgotten that behind every student is a real life human being.

So true...

 

[IADad]

Good article. I'll confess, I didn't read the whole thing it's pretty long and I don't that the time to devote to it, but I was sold after the first narrative with the principal.

The first statistic was kind of useless, I mean since one of the first outcomes is to not dish out suspensions, it's not too surprising that the number of suspensions went down. The number of expulsions, while not a huge numeric difference, was pretty indicative of some substantive change, 20 fewer kids that didn't need to be kicked out of school is significant.

It reminds me of how special our school is because I don't think they've forgotten that every student is special..

I'd be interested in knowing other things about the environmental changes, are students happier, do they feel safer, are teachers happier/more satisfied in the classroom? I suspect so. those stories would mean more than the numbers to me.

I'm sure it takes a culture shift to get teacher buy-in and earlier intervention (so some issues are dealt with in the classroom, before they even become administrative issues.)

I do wonder about the one's who don't respond well to this. I mean when the principal says he may open with "wow, this doesn't seem like you, what happened?"....well, what about the kid they were totqally expecting something like this from? What about the kid who's been down this road 10 times this year alone? I wonder how they approach those situations positively. Which is not to negate the other good, I'm just wondering how they approach more difficult situations...."Wow, you fired a .38 slug past the lunch lady's head...that doesn't seem like you (9mm is usually your caliber of choice...) okay I jest, but you see the question, There must be a line, and I see how it can be a manageable line, rather than a codified on, where we can no longer "talk" about behavior...but then we're getting into different territory, punishment of the career criminal, vs. early intervention and changing someone's path.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.

 

[bssage]

Yeah. I read about half. Then was distracted by kid stuff. My impression was that the change was more a function of the active listening. The discipline was still punitive so I am not sure where they get the positive reinforcement.

When I think of negative reinforcement I think of the revoking of privalages or some other type of restriction. To detire future negative bahavour.

When I think of positive reinforcement I think of gaining privileges or lessening restrictions to acknowledge an appropriate behavior.

I also question the statistics. I dont disagree with the point of the artical, or the position of the principal. But I question the author. To me it sounds like a "casual knowledge" of the subject matter. Rather than a "working knowledge"

 

[csdax]

Very interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

 

[parentastic]

I do wonder about the one's who don't respond well to this. I mean when the principal says he may open with "wow, this doesn't seem like you, what happened?"....well, what about the kid they were totqally expecting something like this from? What about the kid who's been down this road 10 times this year alone?

From what I have seen in my experience so far, this would usually been the kid who has been harshly punished and not listened to the first 9 times. But if it's truly happening like this again despite real listening, I think it's an indicator that a professional counselor needs to get involved, IMO.

I wonder how they approach those situations positively.

Although I don't know how they do it in that school (and I would be very curious to found out!) I can perhaps answer some of that interrogation in general, for the principle of positive discipline.
When the listening doesn't work, you move to the meta-level. You start discussing why listening doesn't work... and you listen to <I>that</I> instead. It's another, deeper listening step, basically.

"Wow, you fired a .38 slug past the lunch lady's head...that doesn't seem like you (9mm is usually your caliber of choice...)

I think that the "wow, this doesn't seem like you, what happened?" is sort of a catch phrase but it has to be adapted to the situation. Even if this young person had indeed fired a gun again for the Nth time, it could probably be approached with something like:
"whaa... it's really difficult for me to understand how someone can decide to fire a gun at someone else... you must have been so terribly angry. I really would like to understand what was going on..."
Of course all of this, in the end, is about listening to people in pain - but if it falls into mental health problems, that's another whole topic and I don't think it can be addressed at that point with listening skills.

okay I jest, but you see the question, There must be a line, and I see how it can be a manageable line, rather than a codified on, where we can no longer "talk" about behavior...but then we're getting into different territory, punishment of the career criminal, vs. early intervention and changing someone's path.

Yes, I agree: it's where to draw the line that is so difficult.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Glad you found it interesting!

 

[parentastic]

My impression was that the change was more a function of the active listening. The discipline was still punitive so I am not sure where they get the positive reinforcement.

When I think of negative reinforcement I think of the revoking of privalages or some other type of restriction. To detire future negative bahavour.

When I think of positive reinforcement I think of gaining privileges or lessening restrictions to acknowledge an appropriate behavior.

Yeah, I wondered about this also. Why do they still impose a negative outcome? When you use the active listening, you get at the root of things and you don't need the positive reinforcement anymore: the positive is already <I>being listened and understood.
</I>The punishment is also not needed, because like you said, the learning comes from the process of being listened and reflecting on one's own anger and actions.
But I suspect they had to proceed with some sort of administrative consequence anyway because of the school system itself, perhaps?

 

[ellsworthata]

How pleasant to come across someone else who advocates for using positive parenting techniques in school! I own a martial arts school and we utilize positive reinforcement as our main technique in molding students behavior. We give the parents tools to continue this process as home and school. I'm so frustrated by so many schools who don't put priority on rewarding kids for even the small nuggets of good that kids do! Parents find it hard to get "good job notes" from teachers. BUT, teachers have no problem sending lengthy emails to parents about discipline issues that I consider minor. What impacts this is that I also work for a residential school. Each child has an individualized behavior plan. (we use ABA). I find it hard to take some of the discipline complaints I hear from teachers seriously when I just spent the day getting excited when a child didn't fecal smear of become aggressive for thirty minutes! We are cheering for these victories at my work, and then I go to my karate school to a parent distraught about a message they got from a teacher because their child had refused to participate in gym class that day. UGH. Really? Three phone calls and two emails about a five year old not participating in gym!!!! And then to find out he had a golden rest of the day after the brief incident. Yeah, and the parent is then asking advice about whether they should have the child sit out of karate class that day because of the incident. Wow, I just used this site to vent...hope that's ok! I blog, ([url ]www.ellsworthata.com )....(shameless[/url] plug, ignor unless you are interested)..anyway, of course my blog has to be more professional...can't be sarcastic there! Apparently I had a need to say how i really felt in some forum! Thanks!

 

[tadamsmar]

What impacts this is that I also work for a residential school. Each child has an individualized behavior plan. (we use ABA).

ABA is not in the forum abbreviation list. I think it stands for Applied Behavior Analysis. Right?

I ABA has different origins and philosophy from Positive Disipline. However, they do seem to call for at least somewhat similar disipline procedures. (But I don't know much about Positive Disipline - all I know is what I read in the wikipedia entry.)

I am using disipline to mean "training", not just "punishment".