Real World Parenting or Abuse?...

IADad

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Feb 23, 2009
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A Florida father was recently caught on video, pushing his son off the edge of a skate ramp.

http://www.today.com/news/police-investigating-father-over-allegedly-kicking-son-down-skate-ramp-2D79591970[/URL]


It reminds me of "old school" parenting where a dad would "teach" a kid to swim by throwing him into a pool.

So, is this abuse or just a harsh way of getting a kid to do what the father believes he's capable of doing? Let's have a considerate constructive discussion.
 

cybele

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Feb 27, 2012
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I've seen that one recently.

I'm all for jumping in head first, but that is for practical life skills.

Three things came to mind when I read about this/watched it.
1. This is the father's hobby, is it the child's?
2. Why was the child scared? There is no background here. Was it 'all in his head' or has this child injured himself doing this before? Does he have a fear of heights? Has Dad done this before and he was scared of being pushed down again?
3. In the video the father walks away. He just pushed his child off a ledge, there was no chance he was going to skate down, if you sneak up behind Tony Hawk and push him, he will fall, because humans are not cats. He does not check to see if his son is okay.

Those three things are why I lean towards the abuse side. #3 especially. You come up behind anyone, completely off guard and push them off a height, they will fall and they will most likely get hurt. That is the expected consequence of the action, there is nothing else that could reasonably happen.

A comment I read on another article about this got me thinking, a 13yr old boy filmed this, why was he filming them? Most 13yr olds at skate parks are too busy enjoying themselves to care what a father and son are doing, could this be a repeated behaviour?
 

singledad

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I agree with cybele about there not being enough information to scream abuse, but what that dad did was definitely not ok. I can't imagine that the dad could have thought the boy would skate down that ramp if he pushed him like that - he must have known he would fall, and he could have been seriously injured. I see in the article that the family is being investigated. I think that is a good idea.
 

IADad

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Feb 23, 2009
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Apparently the kid is some kind of phenom and they are regulars at this skate park. Even considering that I think the dad was way out of line. the fact that he doesn't appear to have any concern makes it feel like it was done out of frustration rather than "coaxing" and the dad simply needs to maintain control of his own actions. Period.

As for the filming, I wondered that too. I wondered if maybe it was just video running on his GoPro, so he wasn't exactly filming them, perhaps just waiting to use that ramp of something. The other thing is this kid has a reputation at this park as a phenom, so maybe it was a "look, let's see what he's going to do" kind of fascination. I can totally see a 13 yo thinking he was going to capture something amazing and get rich on YouTube.
 

mom2many

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Jul 3, 2008
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The kids were waiting to see what the kid was gonna do, and trying to catch it on camera, when instead they caught that.

They also asked the dad why he did it and he said something along the lines of him 'needing to learn' or some crude like that.
 

akmom

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May 22, 2012
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The father looks like a jerk, just pushing that little boy and walking away like that. In my generation growing up, parents did plenty of crummy things like that, and no one was there to record it, post it on YouTube, and hold them accountable. Instead, they reflected on it privately, apologized to their children, and went on to treat them better the next time.

Honestly, if your whole childhood was recorded, do you think you could find an incident that would warrant investigation? I sure could. Today's children wear recording devices like our grandparents wore watches. The fact that it was recorded was probably no more than coincidence. He owes an apology to his son, not the whole world.
 

singledad

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akmom said:
The father looks like a jerk, just pushing that little boy and walking away like that. In my generation growing up, parents did plenty of crummy things like that, and no one was there to record it, post it on YouTube, and hold them accountable. Instead, they reflected on it privately, apologized to their children, and went on to treat them better the next time.
True, I'm sure most parents do dubious things sometimes (which is why I don't think one should get hysterical about one video clip), but there is another side - some parents didn't reflect, didn't apologize, and simply went on to become more and more abusive, and without the awareness created by the internet, they simply got away with it...
 

cybele

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I'm trying to picture my mother reflecting and apologising to me about the things she did purely because she has the shortest temper of anyone I've ever met. Now that would be something worth filming. "I'm sorry that I threw a whole raw chicken at you".
 

akmom

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Yeah, I definitely think society has come a long way in valuing children's rights over privacy, which in cases of ongoing abuse is the correct balance. Frankly, there's a lot of crummy people who need to be held accountable by more than their own under-developed consciences. But I think the most people are good, and still do the occasional awful thing, so we should look at it in terms of patterns rather than isolated incidents.

My dad pushed my (then teen) sister down the stairs in anger once, which is clearly not okay. He had severe remorse over it. I'm pretty sure she'd be in foster care if anyone reported it, and I don't think that would have been a good outcome. Also, I locked my infant in a car alone, in a grocery store parking lot, in -20 degree weather. I had to run inside (alone) just to call a locksmith, since my phone got locked in too. If anyone saw that, it'd look pretty bad. I'm glad I never had my mistakes recorded and publicly judged.
 

cybele

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I think most of us have had the locked in the car incident. After the second time I locked my oldest in the car my father in law made me a little magnetic box that he hid under the car with a spare key in it. I have used it.
 

singledad

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akmom said:
Yeah, I definitely think society has come a long way in valuing children's rights over privacy, which in cases of ongoing abuse is the correct balance. Frankly, there's a lot of crummy people who need to be held accountable by more than their own under-developed consciences. But I think the most people are good, and still do the occasional awful thing, so we should look at it in terms of patterns rather than isolated incidents.

My dad pushed my (then teen) sister down the stairs in anger once, which is clearly not okay. He had severe remorse over it. I'm pretty sure she'd be in foster care if anyone reported it, and I don't think that would have been a good outcome. Also, I locked my infant in a car alone, in a grocery store parking lot, in -20 degree weather. I had to run inside (alone) just to call a locksmith, since my phone got locked in too. If anyone saw that, it'd look pretty bad. I'm glad I never had my mistakes recorded and publicly judged.
From what I know about child welfare in most countries, they do look at patterns, rather than isolated incidents. Kids don't end up in foster care because of single incidents. These days, even kids who I think would be better off in foster care, often don't end up there. It really is a last resort, only used in extreme circumstances. If someone reported your dad, t is much, much more likely that he would have had to get some anger management training which, if his anger caused him to loose control far enough to push his own daughter down the stairs, was possibly something he could have benefited from. The common belief that if you report something the kids will end up in foster care is really not true, and is becoming less and less true as time passes and welfare organisations acquire more knowledge and more tools with which to help families, rather than break them apart.

The thing one has to keep in mind is that most abusive parents are really good at hiding their true nature, and they also train the kids to hide it well - it is very rarely obvious, and if people are too scared to report unless they are 100% sure, well, then the kids are left to fend for themselves. I know you think that most people are good, and I agree that the average parent has their children's best interests at heart, but there aren't special communities where child abusers live, far from everyone else. They live among us. They can be your neighbour, the car behind you in the school drop-off queue, the mom who sits behind you at the school concert. Yes, child abusers even go to school concerts and PTA meetings - it's part of the facade.

In short - incidents should be reported. Someone who is trained in child welfare is much more capable of judging whether an incident is simply a human error, or if something more serious is going on, than the average person.
 

cybele

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A close friend of mine is a social worker, we had a conversation once stemmed off an Australian forum I use (so same system she works in) where a woman was claiming to have had her kids taken because she yelled at one in the supermarket and gravbed his hand and he fell over.
My friends thoughts on the matter were "On my case load I have a child with leukemia whose parents are treating with green tea and multivitamins, I have a child who witnessed their father beat their mother into a coma, I have a 7yr old who is dependent on alcohol to sleep, why the hell would I start taking every child who gets yelled at?"

She went on to say that the vast majority of stories told about kids taken for very little to no reason at all are issues of denial on the parents part.
 

cybele

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I would guess that it's a world-wide reputation. No one wants their kids taken off them, even those who are doing the wrong thing and everyone has a story about "someone they know" who was a normal, upstanding citizen who took great care of their children who had their kids taken off them. Problem is, most of these stories either didn't happen, happened on television or have key elements missing, you know, "I did everything right, my kids get good meals, are loved, go to school each day, I help out at my kid's school, never laid a finger on them" says the person living in a house that could feature in a two-episode special on Hoarders and is also home to hundreds of vermin, kind of key information missing.
 

cybele

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Hey, I'm a fantastic driver. That's why my husband has had to claim to have been driving my car on more than one occasion so I don't run out of demerit points.
 

TabascoNatalie

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cybele said:
I would guess that it's a world-wide reputation. No one wants their kids taken off them, even those who are doing the wrong thing and everyone has a story about "someone they know" who was a normal, upstanding citizen who took great care of their children who had their kids taken off them. Problem is, most of these stories either didn't happen, happened on television or have key elements missing, you know, "I did everything right, my kids get good meals, are loved, go to school each day, I help out at my kid's school, never laid a finger on them" says the person living in a house that could feature in a two-episode special on Hoarders and is also home to hundreds of vermin, kind of key information missing.
In UK the family courts are SECRET. So not only the public does not know, parents themselves are not familiar with evidence gathered against them.

Also, are the reasons for taking children away and forcibly adopted strong enough? Like... "Risk of emotional abuse in the future"
What exactly does that mean?

Another thing, the experiences of children themselves with social workers...
My husband as a child was placed in a brutal boarding school, two of his siblings were placed in separate similar schools, allowed to see the rest of the family only once a month -- because social workers decided it is best for children.
 

singledad

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Right. So things that look like abuse should not be reported and not be investigated? At which stage should someone intervene, keeping in mind how good abusers often are at hiding their true colours?