Smoking debate...

[NancyM]

And that assumption is completely incorrect.



This comment (Yeah I modified it a little) tells me that your really dont understand addiction.

Which part of the addiction is the part you believe she enjoys?

Standing outside in the cold:

Spending 5 bucks for a pack 60 bucks a carton (mostly sin tax, which is for another thread):

Stinking like an ashtray:

Waking up coughing:

Waking up to be a slave to the addiction:

Ruining your clothes with burn holes:

Going through withdrall's several times a day when she is in places that smoking is not allowed:

Planning her day around her smoking:

being excluded from granddaughter visits:

or killing herself?

Yes. Big differences between how your body processes the different delivery methodes

Especially not the people selling these extremely ineffective methodes.

Yes you are correct. And it is amazing how mentally addicted we get to that oral fixation.

Agreed: I don't see why taking half a dozen showers in an afternoon or changing clothes as many times would be an issue for anyone. That's just selfish.

Why should we have to smell anything we find offensive? My grandmother in law smells like mothballs (no pun intended) I cant stand that. My grandfather before he died smelled of hospital and a stale kind of BO. I should have excluded them from family events.

I think this kinda sums up your attitude if I understand correctly. I dont think insulting people. Accusing them of being babies. Is an extremely adult and effective strategy. And I am struggling to figure out who exactly is making "a big fuss" Some other traits of adult hood. Empathy, Understanding, Compromise, forgiveness. Just to name a few.

Vegiemom I am sorry about derailing your thread. That was never my intent. This is just "yanking my chain" for some reason.

Very well said Bssage about addictions and being a former smoker myself (quite for 9 yrs now) I understand completely about it, my husband still smokes and has been trying to quit for many years now.

An addiction is an addiction, (something we have to have/or do) It works the same way in the brain. I also find that many people who don't understand cigarette smokers, usually have a hidden addiction of their own that they don't acknowledge as an addiction.

Drinking,(even a glass of wine every day,may start off as a habit, can easily turn into an addiction) controlling others, over eating, drug abuse,(including pot same thing habit/addiction), even addictions to sex..there are <I>many types</I> of addictions, or something each of us <I>over do</I> to helps cope with stress, self esteem, abusive people in our lives, or just anything that is difficult for us to deal with. Many people have one or two little things we depend on to get us through the day.

Just my opinion on addictions.

 

[akmom]

And I am struggling to figure out who exactly is making "a big fuss" Some other traits of adult hood. Empathy, Understanding, Compromise, forgiveness. Just to name a few.

Would we be having this conversation if her addiction was heroin? Alcoholism? Methinks smokers get more of a break than other addicts because their addiction happens to be legal and doesn't impair their short-term abilities (such as fitness to parent, drive, operate machinery). A drug addict would absolutely be denied the opportunity to visit the baby. There is a history of alcoholism in my extended family, and there are certain members hell-bent on getting those people into treatment, and others who are so squeamish about offending them that they function as enablers. But none of them has ever gone into treatment because of patient and gentle encouragement; it has always been prompted by a DUI or getting kicked out of the house. And the longer an addiction goes on, the worse it gets. That has been my life experience with addicts. And I have to be a little suspicious when hearing it from the point of view of an addict or ex-addict, because of course they want to credit their recovery (or potential recovery) to methods that are less harsh.

My own mother quit after an explosive argument when I was a teen. She finally had enough of my insensitivity, she says, and secretly quit. She did not even tell me until over a week after her last cigarette. She still accuses me of having been "too mean" about her smoking (I was 13). She never reflects on how hard it was for us to grow up in a smoky house, with ear infections and smelly clothes at school, and being expected to keep her habit a secret from others. She smoked indoors always, for fear of the neighbors finding out, because she was embarrassed about it. She pretty much shares your opinion, bssage. But all the kindness and gentle requests for her not to smoke, or to smoke outside, resulted in nothing. And I was just so glad it was over, no matter what it took. Good riddance! I think people who sympathize with addiction just don't know what it's like to be trapped in ANOTHER person's addiction. It's many of the same consequences, but without the compulsion or choice factor that the actual addict has.

 

[bssage]

Would we be having this conversation if her addiction was heroin? Alcoholism?

IMHO that is a nonsensical argument for the a sake of argument. But OK smoking is exactly the same as getting falling down drunk from liquor or getting semi comatose from shooting smack.

Methinks smokers get more of a break

Are we calling a "break" having easy access to the things that are killing us?

because their addiction happens to be legal and doesn't impair their short-term abilities (such as fitness to parent, drive, operate machinery).

I forget what side of this debate your on.

A drug addict would absolutely be denied the opportunity to visit the baby.

You sound pretty sure of this. Absolutely no opportunity to visit?

There is a history of alcoholism in my extended family, and there are certain members hell-bent on getting those people into treatment, and others who are so squeamish about offending them that they function as enablers. But none of them has ever gone into treatment because of patient and gentle encouragement; it has always been prompted by a DUI or getting kicked out of the house. And the longer an addiction goes on, the worse it gets.

So your suggesting Tough Love across the board? Any addiction any level = Leave now?

And I have to be a little suspicious when hearing it from the point of view of an addict or ex-addict, because of course they want to credit their recovery (or potential recovery) to methods that are less harsh.

Of course your are. That would interfere with the labels you have established for them. Forget about them being brothers sisters mothers. First and foremost they a addicts. They are not now and never will be worthy of your trust.

My own mother quit after an explosive argument when I was a teen. She finally had enough of my insensitivity, she says, and secretly quit. She did not even tell me until over a week after her last cigarette. She still accuses me of having been "too mean" about her smoking (I was 13). She never reflects on how hard it was for us to grow up in a smoky house, with ear infections and smelly clothes at school, and being expected to keep her habit a secret from others. She smoked indoors always, for fear of the neighbors finding out, because she was embarrassed about it. She pretty much shares your opinion, bssage. But all the kindness and gentle requests for her not to smoke, or to smoke outside, resulted in nothing. And I was just so glad it was over, no matter what it took. Good riddance!

Great story. It must be a warm feeling knowing all the credit for her kicking her addiction belongs to you. What may be even more telling. Is that you did not know you mom had not smoked for over a week.

I think people who sympathize with addiction

Exchange the word sympathize with Empathize. They have different meanings. Just FYI.

just don't know what it's like to be trapped in ANOTHER person's addiction. It's many of the same consequences, but without the compulsion or choice factor that the actual addict has.

Hit the nail on the head. Being exposed to someone who has an addiction is Exactly like being addicted. Just without the fun stuff.

Look: believe it or not. I do understand your point. I just don't agree with this one size fits all stuff. Neither do I agree with a "my way or the highway" for across the board addictions. My point was never that Addictions are great. You should look the other way: and buy her a pack. It was only to try and have understanding of what they are really dealing with. Its less "they dont care about you". And more they just seem unable to overcome what appears to be an overwhelming obstacle.

 

[singledad]

I know, as I hit the reply button, that I should really stay out of this...

Who knows. Maybe I'm addicted to internet debates :wideeyed:

An addiction is an addiction, (something we have to have/or do) It works the same way in the brain. I also find that many people who don't understand cigarette smokers, usually have a hidden addiction of their own that they don't acknowledge as an addiction.

Drinking,(even a glass of wine every day,may start off as a habit, can easily turn into an addiction) controlling others, over eating, drug abuse,(including pot same thing habit/addiction), even addictions to sex..there are many types of addictions, or something each of us over do to helps cope with stress, self esteem, abusive people in our lives, or just anything that is difficult for us to deal with. Many people have one or two little things we depend on to get us through the day.

Ok, everyone. Brace yourselves. I'm going to agree with Nancy on a smoking thread

An addiction is an addiction is an addiction. Saying to an addict - just stop smoking/drinking/snorting/whatever, is like saying to another person "just stop eating. It's easy, you just need some determination".

Wait! Before you flame me!

I know that's ridiculous. I know you need food to survive and all that. But for an addict to go without his/her particular "drug" (and I use the word loosely here) feels the way it would feel for you to go without food. You crave it like mad. Then you start feeling like crap. Then you start feeling like you're going to die. Then you start wishing you would just freaking die already and get it over with! And, depending on the substance, you might actually die. Yup - I know of two substances from which sudden withdrawal can actually be fatal - and one is alcohol. Remember that any addictive substance, including nicotine, impairs you ability to think straight. (yes, including nicotine - although not to the same extent as other substances)

Would we be having this conversation if her addiction was heroin? Alcoholism? Methinks smokers get more of a break than other addicts because their addiction happens to be legal and doesn't impair their short-term abilities (such as fitness to parent, drive, operate machinery).

Yes and no. Smoking is certainly more socially acceptable than heroin addiction and alcoholism, and I personally believe that is the biggest factor that makes it so hard to quit. When you join AA, the first think you are told is stay out of the bars. Stay away from your drinking buddies. When you quit drugs, the first piece of advice you are likely to get is to stay away from your drug buddies and loose your dealer's number. Cigaretters? How do you stay away from things that will trigger your cravings when there are groups of people smoking outside every building you pass? When every second store sells cigarettes? When you smell it on half your colleagues every day?

Withdrawal from nicotine is nothing compared to some other drugs, and the cravings aren't as strong and don't last as long. But smokers don't get to avoid things that trigger cravings, and they get little to no support from others. That is why it is so hard to quit, IM(rather experienced)O.

A drug addict would absolutely be denied the opportunity to visit the baby.

If by drug addict you mean someone who is high or falling-down drunk all the time, then yes. Absolutely. But it isn't because of their status as an addict - it's because of their intoxication. If someone was able to be "functional" for a while, that person can come near my child. Many alcoholics, for instance, are able to go without a drink for long enough to become perfectly sober and decent. My foster father was like that. He'd drink only at night, and be sober again by morning. If he wasn't the sick bastard that he was and his alcoholism was the only thing that could be said against him, I would have let him visit my daughter, as long as I was able to verify that he was sober. I also don't have a problem with my girlfriend having a glass of wine in the pressence of my daughter - simply because she usually only has one glass of wine and it doesn't impair her at all.

Also - smokers are not the same as other addicts in this regard, because smoking a cigarette doesn't have the destructive effect on your judgement and self-control that alcohol and hard drugs have. To me, it's not about the addiction - that's the addict's problem after all. It's about they way the addiction influences their ability to conduct themselves in a way that will cause me or my child harm. As long as second-hand smoke is managed properly, a smoker is perfectly capable of conduct themselves such that their habit doesn't influence me. The same cannot be said for all alcoholics/addicts.

There is a history of alcoholism in my extended family, and there are certain members hell-bent on getting those people into treatment, and others who are so squeamish about offending them that they function as enablers. But none of them has ever gone into treatment because of patient and gentle encouragement; it has always been prompted by a DUI or getting kicked out of the house. And the longer an addiction goes on, the worse it gets. That has been my life experience with addicts. And I have to be a little suspicious when hearing it from the point of view of an addict or ex-addict, because of course they want to credit their recovery (or potential recovery) to methods that are less harsh.

The truth is, akmom, NOTHING can get an addict to get help if they're not ready. Not even tough love. The idea that an addict will at some point reach "rock bottom" and will be forced to get help is a myth. Most addicts hit many rocks on their way down, but they have an amazing ability to just remove said rocks and keep digging. Rock bottom is that one rock that you hit that you just don't have the energy to remove. It's often no different from other rocks, <U>the addict is just too tired of digging</U>. That's all.

My own mother quit after an explosive argument when I was a teen. She finally had enough of my insensitivity, she says, and secretly quit.

I'm guessing your mother had been thinking about quitting for a long time, and that argument was just the last straw. But of course she would blame it on your insensitivity - that is classic addict behaviour.

I think people who sympathize with addiction just don't know what it's like to be trapped in ANOTHER person's addiction. It's many of the same consequences, but without the compulsion or choice factor that the actual addict has.

Ok, this is where I stop agreeing with you. Unless people who are trapped in another's addiction spend the rest of their lives, long after the physical effects have faded, feeling guilty for the pain they caused their loved ones, dealing with judgement and stigma, and having to defend themselves against judgmental strangers who think they know everything about addiction (and addicts) just because they once knew an addict, then no, it's not the same. And no, there is no choice factor for the addict. That is why it is called addiction.

akmom - In case you don't already know - I've experienced both sides of this coin - living with an addict, and being an addict. Both suck - I won't deny that. Living with an addict is no walk in the park - I can write a book on that. But it's not the same. I'd still choose living with an addict over being an addict any day, without having to think twice. Even smoking - yes. I'd rather deal with someone smelling bad around me from time to time than smelling bad myself, craving, coughing, being judged, not tasting my food, not being able to exercise because I run out of breath, spending money I don't have of stuff that I know is killing me, etc, etc.

Remember, no one here is saying it's ok to smoke in front of a child, in a confined space. I'm pretty sure the smokers on this board don't. That's why I don't even mention the terrible effect second-hand smoke have. I think society has progressed to the point where most people understand that needs to be managed.

 

[singledad]

Just to add something more, for those who claim the right to judge smokers -

Many people are really quick to judge people who are addicted (to anything).
They are weak, have no self-control, are cowards, stupid, self-centered, losers... anyway. I'm pretty sure I don't have to draw up an exhaustive list.

Here's the deal, though - addicts don't actually enjoy their addictions. Some people will claim they enjoy smoking, but I believe that is just easier than admitting they can't stop. People who drink, rarely worry about the taste of what they drink. They care only about getting drunk - not because they enjoy falling down and vomiting, but because it numbs you and cuts you off from reality. Drugs are simple - most drugs of abuse (heroin, cocaine, pot, etc) are painkillers - nothing more, nothing less. I know many people believe that addicts take drugs for the high - well guess what, after the first few times you no longer get high. You just get well, that's all. They take them for their pain-killing abilities, and because they are addicted.

So what am I trying to say - Everyone who has an addiction started doing whatever they're addicted to for a reason - not just to irritated you. It might something as simple as the need to fit in with their peers, or it might be that they lived through things in their lives that they just weren't able to cope with. You don't know what that reason was.

It is so easy to reason that starting to smoke/having that first drink or hit was a stupid decision, but remember that all decisions in life are made by considering the "facts" that are on the table at that particular time. And those "facts" are never complete, or completely objective. Until you understand what the "facts" on the table was when that person made that decision, you have no right to judge his decision.

And now they are addicted. And until you've been addicted to something, you won't be able to understand to hold it has on you.

 

[cybele]

Singledad has pretty much said it all.

I'll confess to something (partially because I feel like I need to confess it somewhere) today I got a phone call from my mother, haven't spoken to her in a few years, not since we got the restraining order out against my father. She pretty much did her usual ripping into me, which hurt. Few other things have been going on lately and I cracked. Yes I quit "frequent" smoking 19 years ago, but I have relapsed briefly many many times, and today was one of those days. The phone call from my mother was kind of the straw that broke the camels back, or so to speak. So I bought a carton and chain-smoked 14 cigarettes before Azriel took the remaining cigs off me, don't know where he has put them and it's better that way.

Nothing about it feel good, I feel sick, my chest hurts, I can't smell, can't taste, wasn't able to eat dinner, my eyes are bloodshot and I somehow managed to burn my lip and have this huge blister. There is something pretty damn pathetic about a 16yr old having to confiscate something off his mother and I can recognise that and I am far from proud of it.

I "quit" 19 years ago and it still has a hold on me, I don't know if that will ever go away, I suspect that I need to develop some kind of healthy coping mechanism for emotional pain, and I know that I quit for health reasons, I dealt with the physical but not with the emotional hold it had on me. Every time I have relapsed, it has been under some kind of "emotional distress".

I hate the smell on me, but if I walk past someone smoking, I will admit straight off the bat that it smells amazing to me, because it smells comforting, and I know that is warped but, still, 19 years later, it has a hold on me.

Nicotine addiction is hard to kick, but if it is mixed in with an emotional addiction it is even harder, and it is very hard to describe what that is like.

 

[Jeremy+3]

Would we be having this conversation if her addiction was heroin? Alcoholism? Methinks smokers get more of a break than other addicts because their addiction happens to be legal and doesn't impair their short-term abilities (such as fitness to parent, drive, operate machinery). A drug addict would absolutely be denied the opportunity to visit the baby. There is a history of alcoholism in my extended family, and there are certain members hell-bent on getting those people into treatment, and others who are so squeamish about offending them that they function as enablers. But none of them has ever gone into treatment because of patient and gentle encouragement; it has always been prompted by a DUI or getting kicked out of the house. And the longer an addiction goes on, the worse it gets. That has been my life experience with addicts. And I have to be a little suspicious when hearing it from the point of view of an addict or ex-addict, because of course they want to credit their recovery (or potential recovery) to methods that are less harsh.

My own mother quit after an explosive argument when I was a teen. She finally had enough of my insensitivity, she says, and secretly quit. She did not even tell me until over a week after her last cigarette. She still accuses me of having been "too mean" about her smoking (I was 13). She never reflects on how hard it was for us to grow up in a smoky house, with ear infections and smelly clothes at school, and being expected to keep her habit a secret from others. She smoked indoors always, for fear of the neighbors finding out, because she was embarrassed about it. She pretty much shares your opinion, bssage. But all the kindness and gentle requests for her not to smoke, or to smoke outside, resulted in nothing. And I was just so glad it was over, no matter what it took. Good riddance! I think people who sympathize with addiction just don't know what it's like to be trapped in ANOTHER person's addiction. It's many of the same consequences, but without the compulsion or choice factor that the actual addict has.

How can a parent parent appropriately when they are stood outside smoking, no decent parent would leave a child in a house alone. A smoking parent would also have either smoked during pregnancy or a father be a smoker during conception, both of which will damage that childs health, I'm pretty sure damaging the health of your child doesn't go hand in hand with good parenting. Smoking as a parent is incredibly selfish.

A parent is a role model, if a parent smokes they are teaching that it is an okay thing to do, just as if a parent swears they are teaching their child that is an acceptable thing to do. If someone is willing to put an addiction before the health of well being of their own child they really should consider whether they should be having children at all.

 

[bssage]

How can a parent parent appropriately when they are stood outside smoking, no decent parent would leave a child in a house alone.

Fair enough. How could any decent parent take a poop and leave a child alone in the house? How could a decent parent walk to the end of the drive to check the mail leaving a child inside alone. Take a shower, wash dishes, make dinner, do laundry.

A smoking parent would also have either smoked during pregnancy or a father be a smoker during conception,

I will let the ladies answer the lady question. Personally I have found smoking while concepting is problematic. Maybe there are some highly skilled dude's out there that can pull this off.

both of which will damage that childs health, I'm pretty sure damaging the health of your child doesn't go hand in hand with good parenting.

Nobody is going to argue it is unhealthy. Not aware of any sound studies as far as men go that say anything other than it makes my boys smaller in number and slower swimmers but OK. We are not advocating smoking or trying to imply it is healthy. We are talking about addictions. Specifically the addiction to smoking.

Smoking as a parent is incredibly selfish.

A parent is a role model, if a parent smokes they are teaching that it is an okay thing to do, just as if a parent swears they are teaching their child that is an acceptable thing to do. If someone is willing to put an addiction before the health of well being of their own child they really should consider whether they should be having children at all.

Yep your right. The guilt if you have never experienced it is unbelievable. We (I) try and mitigate this with words. "The single biggest mistake daddy ever made" " This habit makes daddy a slave" ect ect... But we know that is not enough. We get it. We live it. And if we were to lose site of that. We can always count on someone rubbing our noses in it. We get that also.

Really if there is something good to come from smoking. It gives others a chance to feel superior regardless of their own shortcomings. Instead of reflecting inwardly at what can be done to make them a better parent. They can be comforted in the knowledge that they cant possibly be as bad as a smoking parent. The world would probably be a better place if you could just take my kids away for foster care. Because we really shouldn't have been "allowed" to parent at all.

 

[cybele]

Pregnancy was what made me quit. I smoked through my first trimester with Dita and I will never forgive myself, it is always in the back of my mind, "Why is she so short? Is that my fault? But then she Ash and me are both short, so maybe it's genetic, or maybe it's because both our mothers smoked through pregnancies, all my other kids are taller and I didn't smoke with them, can smoking cause anaphylaxis? No one has said it can, but she's the only one who has to carry an epi pen around, why is she so damn skinny? She's plumper than me, and completely in a healthy weight range, but she can eat a whole cake and manage to lose weight from it, just like me, but I am still going to sit here and obsess over her weight and how I screwed her up for life."

Jeremy, are you serious about bad parenting being going outside for 5mins? That has to be a joke. If so I am an awful, absolutely awful mother, I do all sorts of crazy outside activities while my kids are inside, like hanging up the clothes, removing snakes, looking for our cats, picking the fruits and veggies that we grow, and so on. I would like to think that my children can entertain themselves for a few minutes without Mummy. If they can't then I think that's an issue.

Yes, sometimes I even do very selfish things outside, like sit on the balcony and drink a cup of coffee in PEACE.

Really if there is something good to come from smoking. It gives others a chance to feel superior regardless of their own shortcomings. Instead of reflecting inwardly at what can be done to make them a better parent. They can be comforted in the knowledge that they cant possibly be as bad as a smoking parent. The world would probably be a better place if you could just take my kids away for foster care. Because we really shouldn't have been "allowed" to parent at all.

This.

I know I am a flawed person, my goodness I am a heavily flawed person. Everyone has flaws, mine include addiction. I don't pretend it's a good thing and I am quite ashamed of it.

No one's perfect, and this whole "You should be allowed to have kids because of this" type talk is just silly, because as Bssage said, chances are, none of us should be allowed to have kids.

I would also hate to give my kids the impression that they need to be perfect at all times in order to be a good person, that's an awful lot of pressure to put on someone who is human.

 

[akmom]

Is this a "smoking debate" as titled, or a place to vent frustrations about smoking? I think it's pretty well established that smoking is a bad idea. So if it's a debate, I suppose it would be, how much exposure should non-smokers tolerate? And my opinion is none.

Drinking,(even a glass of wine every day,may start off as a habit, can easily turn into an addiction) controlling others, over eating, drug abuse,(including pot same thing habit/addiction), even addictions to sex..there are <I>many types</I><i></i> of addictions, or something each of us <I>over do</I><i></i> to helps cope with stress, self esteem, abusive people in our lives, or just anything that is difficult for us to deal with. Many people have one or two little things we depend on to get us through the day.

I agree with this, but how does it apply to smoking? This really isn't about slamming people for having addictions. I really don't care if someone wants to hide in their bedroom and eat a thousand cookies to cope with a stressful day, or spend ten hours playing Angry Birds on their iPhone because they can't quit. That's their business. What I don't like is having to smell tobacco smoke, because it is unpleasant. If I get more than a whiff of it, I get a dry, scratchy feeling in my throat that feels like the beginning of a cold. Once that happens, it lingers for a long time, no matter how much fresh air or water I get. My expectations are that I should not have to breathe that. It's unhealthy, and I believe that I have the right to avoid it. That much is my business, and my position on this so-called "smoking debate" is based on that alone.

What ends up happening is that I have to breathe second-hand smoke sometimes. Because someone else made the decision to smoke - some time, somewhere, for some reason that is none of my business - and became addicted, I have to spend the first 13 years of my life cooped up with an indoor smoker. For whatever reason - be it a long-time desire to quit, my teenage nagging, price hikes or some combination of factors - that smoker quit and I didn't have to deal with second-hand smoke at home any more. That was a great relief to me. What kind of pain and suffering was involved in that decision I admittedly don't know or understand. I just know I am happy that it ended, and I regret nothing that may have played a role in its demise. I am proud of my mom for quitting. I have made that clear to her. I'm still disappointed she made us live with it all that time. It's possible to be upset with what she did and grateful that she quit, at the same time.

I still have to smell smoke sometimes. When I was in college, every dorm entrance and many classroom entrances were polluted with smoke, because people smoked just outside the door. On cold, windstill days, it seemed to really linger in the air. Sometimes I ended up with a sore throat during class. The onset is pretty distinct, so I know what causes it. When I lived in an apartment, my balcony was always smoky because of smoking neighbors. I didn't get to enjoy my balcony because of that. All of these things affected me, and that makes them my business. When, how much and why people smoke is not. If they find a way to do it privately, I don't care.

Really if there is something good to come from smoking. It gives others a chance to feel superior regardless of their own shortcomings. Instead of reflecting inwardly at what can be done to make them a better parent. They can be comforted in the knowledge that they cant possibly be as bad as a smoking parent.

I hear this "woe is me" line a lot. If you're getting a lot of grief from people about smoking, then maybe you're not managing second-hand smoke properly. I personally don't care what you do with your own body, as long as it's out of my face. That's the sentiment most non-smokers express, not "superiority." Smokers are often misguided about what it means to "take it outside." They assume there is this giant vacuum in the sky that eliminates all smoke the moment they exhale, as long as they step over the threshold. They don't take into account proximity to others, wind direction, or how long it takes the fumes to dissipate. I've seen parents smoking right next to the play equipment in a public park. Right outside the entrance to a grocery store. While walking down the sidewalk with people behind them. Then they get all defensive and assume everyone is judging them. Newsflash: smoke carries. I admit it's not easy to avoid smoking around others, simply because the fumes are so mobile and there aren't a lot of "out of the way" places people can access for a quick smoke. But that's doesn't excuse the responsibility. Or make non-smokers "holier-than-thou" when they insist on it. Luckily society is getting better about enforcing smoking bans, so these uncomfortable confrontations are less frequent. But one must still be adamant with guests if they are to keep their living space pleasant.

And this doesn't even touch on the responsibility parents have, since their children do not have the benefit of smoking bans or being able to leave to avoid adults' second-hand smoke.

 

[bssage]

This really isn't about slamming people for having addictions.

Ok we will make it about what you want it to be. Its safe to assume then: that this thread wont be doing any of that.

What I don't like is having to smell tobacco smoke

it is unpleasant.

If I get more than a whiff of it,

it lingers for a long time,

or water I get.

I have to spend the first 13 years of my life cooped up with an indoor smoker.

I didn't have to deal with second-hand smoke at home any more.

I was in college,

Sometimes I ended up with a sore throat during class.

I lived in an apartment, my balcony was always smoky because of smoking neighbors.

I didn't get to enjoy my balcony because of that

All of these things affected me,

I hear this "woe is me" line a lot.

Yes I know. We all here that line alot.

how much and why people smoke is not. If they find a way to do it privately, I don't care.

I personally don't care what you do with your own body,

as long as it's out of my face.

We get that

That's the sentiment most non-smokers express, not "superiority."

I dont recall using the word most when expressing superiority. I may have. I will check. If I did that was wrong of me. I know your in charge of speaking for "most" My bad. <I>Edited:</I> nope not my word.

Smokers are often misguided about what it means to "take it outside."

They assume there is this giant vacuum in the sky that eliminates all smoke the moment they exhale, as long as they step over the threshold.

They don't take into account proximity to others, wind direction, or how long it takes the fumes to dissipate.

Newsflash: smoke carries. I admit it's not easy to avoid smoking around others, simply because the fumes are so mobile and there aren't a lot of "out of the way" places people can access for a quick smoke. But that's doesn't excuse the responsibility.

Yes you are correct. We are all idiots. Thanks for the news flash.

Or make non-smokers "holier-than-thou"

You are correct. I know one or two non-smokers who are not all that Holy: Really??

And this doesn't even touch on the responsibility parents have, since their children do not have the benefit of smoking bans or being able to leave to avoid adults' second-hand smoke.

I think several posters did touch on this. Including myself. But of course you would have to read to see that.

I am not going to continue to respond for the sake of responding.

 

[cybele]

So there isn't a magic sky vaccum? Oh drats, here I was thinking that there was. I thought all my smoke floated up to magic sky and where it danced with other people's smoke.

You'll have to excuse me, thats my awful, inconsiderate smoke brain for you.

 

[parentastic]

Oh boy. I know it's not a good idea to join this thread... oh oh.
But hey. Can't stay silent either here.

Background: I have asthma. Had it for as long as I can remember; I was probably diagnosed around 9-10 years old. It is severe enough that I had two or three close call when I was younger, before it was managed properly.

Because of this, I am especially sensitive to smoke. I realize most people aren't as sensitive to it as I am; however, my experience as a non smoker has been very similar to what akmom described.

I don't think akmom was trying to imply that bssage or anyone here in particular don't understand how cigaret smoke can affect people around the smoker even when outside... but here is my experience, guys: smokers, in general (not everyone, not all the time... but most smokers, most of the time) do assume that it is their right to smoke outside no matter who is around them.

I have spoken to many of them. Some, I have asked gently to stop, explaining that it causes me to cough and trigger lingering asthma attacks. Some others, I have requested them to stop, because they were smoking in public areas or places I could not escape from.
Some others, most of time, I have no choice but to ignore.

Now, there might be a lot of smokers around me in public places outside who aren't smoking on purpose because they know there are other non-smokers around them. Maybe. I wouldn't know for sure, because I only know about those who smoke.
But I can say this: there are a LOT of smokers outside who don't stop because other non smokers are around. When you talk to them, they either give you this look of complete surprise (as in "oh are you kidding, my smoke is BOTHERING someone? But we are OUTSIDE?!?") or this look of hurt / anger (as in "hey I am OUTSIDE so it's my RIGHT!") or this look of complete "whatever you say, who are you anyway, why should I care" look.

In 40+ years of life, I haven't met a whole lot of POLITE and attentive smokers to the well beings of others around them. So yeah, maybe this is generalizing. And yes, absolutely, they are suffering from a terrible addiction and I feel terribly sorry for them. But I do understand akmom's point of view also, in a way that perhaps no smoker can.

I want to offer a comparison (and I know I am going to get shot here! but I think it might illustrate the debate and perhaps recenter it).

Say you are walking on the streets and you decide to stop for a few minute to wait for a bus at a bus stop and you sit down on the bench.
Suddenly, the guy next to you takes a syringe from his bag with some heroine and he shoot you with it, in your arm, then shoots himself with it right after.

How would that make you feel?
As far as I am concerned, it's not very different.

A potent, dangerous and addictive substance is being forced into my lungs by a stranger so that they can proceed to meet their own addiction. And there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, because the drug is legal and we are "outside".
The thought is really infuriating and it's only matched by a terrible feeling of powerlessness, in my case. So I do understand akmom perfectly.

There. Enough said.

 

[mom2many]

I am a smoker.

I have never come across rude smokers. I should say it is very rare to see a blatantly rude smoker. Most people I know who smoke are considerate of those around them.

I also smoked while pregnant, the only time I didn't is with Ted...my learning disabled/bi-polar w/psychosis son. I am not a huge smoker, not even a pack a day and when I am pregnant I cut it back to less then that, but at no point do I feel like a bad mother. My kids are happy, healthy, annoying and everything else children are.

I've tried quitting more times then I can count, and I fail every time. I know one day I will be successful...I just don't know when. Frankly my smoking is not who I am as a person, which is how so many like to label smokers. They are inconsiderate, they don't care about their kids, they are bad mothers..yadda, yadda. Whatever, I am a good person. I am a good mother. I am considerate of those around me.

I guess that's it.............I lost my train of thought lol

 

[bssage]

OO KKKK Pstc! (sound of knuckles popping) Just kidding

Yes I do: and would guess many (if not all) of us understand that. Of course I cant speak for the others. When I would go outside to smoke I would go to extremes to be "out of the line of fire" so to speak. At a fast food restaurant for example. I would walk to a far corner of the building or stay in the parking lot by the car. I wont say I never made a social mistake along these line's due to weather or something else. But that was always the exception rather than the rule.

I think there is a rude smoker syndrome here. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease " The smokers who are being considerate really don't warrant any attention. Its the ones in the doorway: A bus stop: on the benches at the children's portion of the park that everyone remembers and associates smoking with. Fair enough.

But as turn about is fair play. Its also the non-smoker "squeaky wheel" that gets the grease or attention on our side of the fence. Someone who clearly did not need to be around you. Or if you can believe it people who join in the crowd to join the conversation. Or people who scream that it should be completely banned. Who draw our attention and make an impression.

There are times when its like a gas cramp. Where yeah you know it sad: and bad. But your trapped. Those times are extremely rare. The slightest amount of planning and those event can be avoided.

I think we can agree: even the most hardcore smokers. That they stink: Really I could go on with the descriptive language. But its smoke. Nuff said.

What prompted this thread was not its smoke (I am just going to use that word to include all the descriptions) Its was what the addiction can do to you. It makes us liars. It causes us to sneak. We try and we fail. Not in all cases. But I would say a fair amount. It appears as an overwhelming task. And it precludes assumptions about whether or not we care.

If we care about our kids. If we care about family. Which really I believe most of the members of this site care deeply about all those things. And as I am sure you already know. I tend to get offended by those types of implications.

Tuff Love is always something we have in the tool box. But I think it is the most extreme tool we have. I thought the debate was more about if that tool should be brought to bear or not. I think there are more appropriate approaches to the issue.

So the point's AK and yourself have made are taken. But in some cases I believe they tend overgeneralize the population. Yes there are plenty of Asshats out there. Smoking and not. Its unnecessary to tell us again, again and again it stinks: Many people are sensitive to it, ect... We GET IT.

The ironic thing is that those who insist on driving the point home on how inconsiderate smokers are. Have a resolution that completely remove's that component to the solution.

 

[parentastic]

I think there is a rude smoker syndrome here. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease " The smokers who are being considerate really don't warrant any attention. Its the ones in the doorway: A bus stop: on the benches at the children's portion of the park that everyone remembers and associates smoking with. Fair enough.

Yes, I do understand and appreciate that not all smokers fit the negative description I gave above; and I am happy to know some are more considerate... however, I think the problem is deeper than this - more about what I mean below.

But as turn about is fair play. Its also the non-smoker "squeaky wheel" that gets the grease or attention on our side of the fence. Someone who clearly did not need to be around you. Or if you can believe it people who join in the crowd to join the conversation. Or people who scream that it should be completely banned. Who draw our attention and make an impression.

See, the problem I have with this, is that the situation can't be compared on an equal basis, IMO.
The smoker is stuck with his addiction and is forcing it on unwilling people.
The non-smoker is only asking for his right to clean air to breath. Call this presumptuous, but in my book, the right of the later trumps the right of the former.

Yes, the non smoker could purposely (and often do) decide not to join a group where some smokers are present. But often, then, they have to isolate themselves from networking and contacts, for instance. Why would it be the non addicted person who would have to chose willingly a disadvantage, just to be able to breath?

There are times when its like a gas cramp. Where yeah you know it sad: and bad. But your trapped. Those times are extremely rare. The slightest amount of planning and those event can be avoided.

Yeah... and I do understand that and feel terribly sorry and sad for smokers. I wish I could help - really help, not just be nice to them - but as some pointed out, nobody can help someone out of an addiction unless they are ready to do it, themselves.
I also do feel terribly sorry for the heroine addicts; but at least they don't force their drug into my lungs...

I think we can agree: even the most hardcore smokers. That they stink: Really I could go on with the descriptive language. But its smoke. Nuff said.

No, no no no no no.
This is it. This is exactly what I was trying to convey.
To the smoker, it seems, the "worst" they see about their effect on others are how "it stinks". If it was only that, sure, I'd agree with you. But it's not. It's a poison, it causes cancer, it can cause me to stop breathing and end up in the hospital; even for the ordinary bystander, it's a huge mix of terribly addictive and yet damaging chemicals.
It's NOT just about smell!
It's this kind of comment that feels terribly infuriating to non-smokers. It's as if there is a way to wave if off, to cast aside any concern with the idea that, hey, it stinks. Boo-hoo! So what?
Smokers are forcing some poison into other people's lungs each time they smoke or even stand around non-smokers. Do smokers get the seriousness of it? Not many show that they do, in all of their arguing and defenses.

It was what the addiction can do to you. It makes us liars. It causes us to sneak. We try and we fail.

And it makes you poisoners. That, to me, is where it becomes even worst.

And it precludes assumptions about whether or not we care. If we care about our kids. If we care about family. Which really I believe most of the members of this site care deeply about all those things. And as I am sure you already know. I tend to get offended by those types of implications.

Yeah... this I am right with you. I can really understand the feeling of being offended. I honestly believe <I>of course</I> that smokers care about their family and children. Deeply. It speaks volume about the sheer power of this addiction that they continue and fail to stop despite their deep and genuine care for others.
But I also wonder how truly they realize the damage they do. If the idea is that they should stop because "it stinks" and they think non-smokers see them as not caring because their addiction is stronger than a bad smell, then yeah I can understand you. But maybe the crux of the problem is that smokers tend to see their smoking as a lot less dangerous or impacting others as non-smokers see it?

Its unnecessary to tell us again, again and again it stinks: Many people are sensitive to it, ect... We GET IT.

That's the point.
IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW IT STINKS! It's not a question of being forced upon a bad smell. It's about being forced into a poisonous substance!
So when you say "We GET IT", please allow me to say you haven't convinced me you do... (no offense!)

It's like we tell you over and over that it's dangerous poison and you respond "stop telling us it stinks!" ?!? There is a disconnect here...

The ironic thing is that those who insist on driving the point home on how inconsiderate smokers are. Have a resolution that completely remove's that component to the solution.

Not sure I follow you. What do you mean?

 

[cybele]

In regards to the non-smokers/inconsiderate argument. Most smokers I know are considerate, but that just may be my luck, most non-smokers I know are not rude about it, again, luck. However, if I go around the side behind a building to smoke in a vacant alley to smoke away fron others, and a non-smoker follows me then hangs around for no reason and complains, then they're just being an ass. This has happened to me several times.

My favourite, however, was a religious doorknocker who walked the pretty decent treck to my verandah, ignoring the "no salespeople" sign, and asked me to put out my cigarette. On my property, where he was trespassing. I had a good laugh at him.

Lesson here: everyone can be an ass and everyone can be considerate

 

[mom2many]

The smell does stink....it's nasty no argument there.

Cybele I've had people do that, I'm like really?! I didn't ask you to follow me lol

 

[bssage]

I think you misunderstood my meaning on some of this stuff

See, the problem I have with this, is that the situation can't be compared on an equal basis, IMO.
The smoker is stuck with his addiction and is forcing it on unwilling people.
The non-smoker is only asking for his right to clean air to breath. Call this presumptuous, but in my book, the right of the later trumps the right of the former.

Which is why I try and stay clear of the "fire zone" Your just not aware of that because I am not there smoking.

Yes, the non smoker could purposely (and often do) decide not to join a group where some smokers are present. But often, then, they have to isolate themselves from networking and contacts, for instance. Why would it be the non addicted person who would have to chose willingly a disadvantage, just to be able to breath?

What I am talking about is people who gather with the intent of smoking. And a non-smoker joining that group. I know that sounds counter intuitive. But it happen extremely frequently especially when I am out. In the case you describe I would leave the circle and place myself down wind.

Yeah... and I do understand that and feel terribly sorry and sad for smokers. I wish I could help - really help, not just be nice to them - but as some pointed out, nobody can help someone out of an addiction unless they are ready to do it, themselves.
I also do feel terribly sorry for the heroine addicts; but at least they don't force their drug into my lungs...

Right we get that. I am asking only for understanding. Not sympathy.

No, no no no no no.
This is it. This is exactly what I was trying to convey.
To the smoker, it seems, the "worst" they see about their effect on others are how "it stinks". If it was only that, sure, I'd agree with you. But it's not. It's a poison, it causes cancer, it can cause me to stop breathing and end up in the hospital; even for the ordinary bystander, it's a huge mix of terribly addictive and yet damaging chemicals.
It's NOT just about smell!
It's this kind of comment that feels terribly infuriating to non-smokers. It's as if there is a way to wave if off, to cast aside any concern with the idea that, hey, it stinks. Boo-hoo! So what?
Smokers are forcing some poison into other people's lungs each time they smoke or even stand around non-smokers. Do smokers get the seriousness of it? Not many show that they do, in all of their arguing and defenses.

I was just trying not to rewrite a paragraph of all the sins of cig smoke again. I have stated many times. We do know the harmful effects of 1st 2nd and 3rd hand smoke. How could anyone not? It was just word conservation on my part.

And it makes you poisoners. That, to me, is where it becomes even worst.

OK. I was hopeful we could come up with some new and colorful labels. Mission Accomplished.

Yeah... this I am right with you. I can really understand the feeling of being offended. I honestly believe <I>of course</I> that smokers care about their family and children. Deeply. It speaks volume about the sheer power of this addiction that they continue and fail to stop despite their deep and genuine care for others.
But I also wonder how truly they realize the damage they do. If the idea is that they should stop because "it stinks" and they think non-smokers see them as not caring because their addiction is stronger than a bad smell, then yeah I can understand you. But maybe the crux of the problem is that smokers tend to see their smoking as a lot less dangerous or impacting others as non-smokers see it?

No I absolutely have no illusions of the harm smoking does. I thought I noted that several times throughout the post.

"We GET IT", please allow me to say you haven't convinced me you do... (no offense!)

OK you caught me. really I think its safe and healthy.

It's like we tell you over and over that it's dangerous poison and you respond "stop telling us it stinks!" ?!? There is a disconnect here...

I'm just saying that I do get your point. But of course since your not convinced. Feel free to just keep repeating yourself.

Not sure I follow you. What do you mean?

I will try and figure out a clearer way to explain it.

 

[parentastic]

I think you misunderstood my meaning on some of this stuff Which is why I try and stay clear of the "fire zone" Your just not aware of that because I am not there smoking.

Fair enough! And btw I was not implying anything specific about you, bssage. I have nothing but respect for you.

What I am talking about is people who gather with the intent of smoking. And a non-smoker joining that group. I know that sounds counter intuitive. But it happen extremely frequently especially when I am out. In the case you describe I would leave the circle and place myself down wind.

If that non-smokers joins the smokers when they specifically gathered away to smoke, hey, then that person really shouldn't complain about it. We are in agreement there!

Right we get that. I am asking only for understanding. Not sympathy.

You got it, at least to the extend of how a non-addict can "understand" an addiction (which is only intellectually for me, because I don't suffer from any addiction that I know of). So I want to say that I understand, but I also want to be fair and state that I can't really know how difficult it is, even if I can imagine some of it.

I was just trying not to rewrite a paragraph of all the sins of cig smoke again. I have stated many times. We do know the harmful effects of 1st 2nd and 3rd hand smoke. How could anyone not? It was just word conservation on my part.

Okay. Again, I wasn't trying to be accusing you personally of anything; I am simply stating that, in my experience so far, you wouldn't believe the number of smokers I have met who really do not agree that it's harmful. They think it's a government conspiracy, an exaggeration, etc.
But I should be careful and not extend that to all the smoker's population. I also think that the picture really has changed a lot in the last 20 years: to a certain extent, the situation has inverted. It used to be much more difficult for non smoker and much easier for smokers, 20 years ago.

OK. I was hopeful we could come up with some new and colorful labels. Mission Accomplished.

Ouch, sarcasm! Seems I offended you after all. My sincere apology, then, this was not the intent.

No I absolutely have no illusions of the harm smoking does. I thought I noted that several times throughout the post.

You did. I was more talking about the generic smoker's rhetoric of "it's just bad smell" argument I have heard over and over ad nauseum all my life. It wasn't directed at you... sorry if it came out this way.

OK you caught me. really I think its safe and healthy.

More sarcasm... I knew I'd get some punches!

I'm just saying that I do get your point. But of course since your not convinced. Feel free to just keep repeating yourself.

I am going to be really honest and transparent here, bssage.
I get that I (probably) offended you.
On the flip side, the sarcasm really does not help me feel like you do get my point, even if you keep saying you do.
You said you'd like to be understood.
So do I.
I have spent my life trying to hide from smoke and smokers who are everywhere because it triggers asthma. It's NOT fun. It's hard to hear all about how it's really not THAT bad and I should stop complaining.
I realize it's not what you are doing! Yet I don't feel understood or heard either. But I also realize a debate over a cold electronic medium isn't the best for mutual understanding or empathy, so hey.

I will try and figure out a clearer way to explain it.

Thanks, I'am interested in your views.

Peace.