5 Year Old Son... Behavior Training (Physical)...

[John Shields]

Let me start by saying when I say physical, I don't mean hitting. LONG story short I have a 5 year old that is beginning to cause a lot of problems at school (day care).

Now, I imagine some of what happens may be misunderstood or blown out of proportion by the teachers there. But it's a daily occurance now that needs to be changed quickly.

What we have is a lot of rough play (resulting in kids and he himself getting injured). We have lashing out sometimes, and not listening. He ends up in time out more than once a day and has become the motivating factor in the school doing Traffic Light Days (red - bad, yellow - not good, green - good).

So my thought process is this and tell me if this sounds ok. I was in the military... did 4 years in the Infantry. I want to run my kid through a little bit of a boot camp. This would entail some running, and general fitness. I'd instruct him on proper behaviors at home and school, and try to wear him out in the mornings.

What I really need to know is how good is physical training for behavior correction? Is there an age at which this might be too soon? Is this even a good idea?

One our friends has a son about his age who they have sent to a psychologist that runs a program like this. It consists of a number of push up when having done something wrong, and then a general wear out session. Seems decent but I don't think I need to pay to do the same thing at home.

Thoughts?

EDIT:

On a side note... I've often thought when it would be a good idea to start my son in Martial Arts. I took karate back when I was his age or slightly later. I then went off and on until I was about 16 with various schools and arts. Is 5 years old too soon for that? I'd be thinking of incorporating that into this "program" with the emphasis on this stuff NOT being for use outside of the home.

 

[MomoJA]

Five is not too young for what you've described, nor for karate or any discipline. By discipline I mean training or regimen but I chose that word because I wanted to stress how the more common meaning, correcting behavior, evolved. In other words, it is through learning a discipline that we learn behavior. I'm sure you can see this clearly with your military background. Some of the most troubled young men turn out to be the most upstanding adults after a stint in the military. They needed the discipline.

I understand your wish to tire your son out before daycare, but I would caution you about that. If he is too exhausted, he won't really learn much, and while you may not think he is learning much during daycare, he actually is, but more than that, it becomes a habit, or a discipline.

I would also strongly caution you against making it a punishment. Not that you've suggested you would, but I just want to throw that in there. Any time your son spends with you one-on-one can be the most powerful incentive there is to behave well, and I'd like to imagine him as an adult telling stories about how his crazy old dad (affectionally meant) used to wake him up at the crack of dawn to do exercises with him.

One last thing I'd like to mention is that sometimes what you've described going on at daycare becomes a vicious cycle. The teachers start to expect such behavior and then "see" it all the time. The other children realize that Johnny is the problem and the dynamics work toward that. Johnny becomes frustrated and can't do anything right, it seems. He feels misunderstood and acts out. And so on. It is sometimes very hard to break that cycle, no matter what you do, and it starts to destroy Johnny's self-esteem and he becomes who they say he is. Now this is an extreme remedy, and I'm not suggesting you need to do this, but sometimes the only thing you can do is change daycares.

Is it a majority girls class? Are any of the other boys getting into as much trouble?

 

[John Shields]

It's a mixed girls/boys class that's fairly even across the board. There are a couple that are acting up as well, but he's clearly not friends with them (he always talks about how he doesn't like them and they always get in trouble).

My thought process is that if I nip this now, he starts his new school in August/September. Maybe it'll give me a little bit of time to get him geared the right direction. Maybe at the new school he'll be doing better and wont have that "wild child" image.

I know I was a maniac in school. From birth on up to graduation I was a nut. The military fixed me of most of that. It was a great experience even if it didn't end as well as I would have hoped (different story, different day, different forum). But if I can manage this to have a healthy dose of:

1. Physical training
2. Martial arts
3. Mental training (behavior correction)

I think I can make this work. I'd want to do it more like a "becoming a man" type of event more so than punishment. He's always wanting to do more to be "bigger" (yay Tom Hanks). So I suppose if I do this carefully and not make him feel like he grew up too early... this could work out.

Part of me is rather concerned because there's a little one growing up watching him now. I can already see some of the traits she's picked up from him. I want to be able to get both on track.

Any thoughts on the best way to approach it all?

 

[MomoJA]

I would suggest making it a daddy and me thing. Lots of moms and daughters have "girls day out." This could be a boys morning routine.

Maybe make a chart with stickers that represent the different exercises you will do, and let him put the stickers on the chart.

Make sure there is lots of positive feedback. It should be challenging, but he should definitely be made to feel success. Be very careful to be realistic about your expectations. At first, when you see it is difficult for him to do two push-ups, for example, be openly amazed that he did two, and I'll bet he'll squeeze out one more. Let him hear you bragging about how he did three. Etc.

Hopefully some other people will have some other suggestions for you.

 

[IADad]

Hmmm, I think you got a lot of ggod feeback from MomoJA, although I can site some examples were military life did the exact opposite to some young men, but that's another story, just saying it's not a cure-all approach that'll work for everyone.

So, I see that the staff has talked to you about what they do in response to his actions, have they talked about what they believe the causes, the triggers, are? Are there times of day that are better or worse? I think I'd want to know these things, because like MomoJA said, wearing him out in the morning may just make him tired, maybe adding to frustrations and even less rational responses.

I agree that maybe finding some physical activites you can do together might be good, and I agree that keeping them positive is better than negative at this point. If you can get him hooked on doing this with you, then you have some leverage for behavior modification (i.e. no PT tonight if you're in time out today) but again, without knowing what triggers the problem, that may not be much help. You may want to explore psychology at the same time, maybe he has some attention issues? I guess thee bottom like is I'm thinking not to put all your eggs in one basket, search out the various causes, you can still embark on your physical training program, that can't be bad as long as you keep it age appropriate. And I agree that getting ahead of it now could pay off for you and him big time in terms of his next school and a fresh start.

let us know how things progress.

 

[JBKB3]

I would lean towards martial arts. Though I am ex-military as well I have noticed that having someone other than the parent reinforcing things that the parent is trying to teach the child seems to work well. You know kids think we don't know anything....

My oldest daughter was not a trouble maker, but showed an interest in martial arts at the age of 5. Of all the extra-curricular activities she could have done, there aren't too many that will give them something to use in the real world (i.e. self defense). Part of most any youth martial arts program should include teaching respect, courage, to try and talk it out or walk away first before coming to blows, community service, etc..

A good dojo and instructor will listen to you and your concerns about your child and work with you to reinforce certain corrective actions. What issues we have had with our daughter we have been able to speak one on one with the coaches who have either spoken to our daughter one on one about the issues or have brought it into the teachings for the day without singling her out.

More than few times we have also used her having to tell her instructors how she is acting as a threat to make her correct her behavior. It works.

As an added benefit my daughter has gained so much confidence that she never had before and she has really come out of her shell. Her teachers have told us a few times at school she will even call out the trouble makers, tells them they are acting stupid and not showing respect.

She will be testing for her black belt next month. I think it has been a great investment.

JB

 

[dave]

OP: i have some thoughts for you, but warning :I'm on my first child on my first post on this forum so this is speculative claptrap.

I am having the same problem with my 4 year old. When he was kicked out of day care for "not lying down for a nap" (he stopped napping entirely around 30 months). Apparently he threw a fit every day about it. At age 6 they do first grade. In first grade there is no nap... My point is there are certain things they make these kids do in preschool/child care that some of the children don't need. I wouldn't be surprised if nap time was just to meet worker break regs.

Your Idea is good. I can imagine if you have told many civ families or friends about this idea you may have heard objection but i think a few things about this "boot camp" sound GREAT.

1-memories
he wont remember being punished he will remember learning what it takes to be a soldier.

2.schedule
boot camp is all about putting people on the military schedule, reveille at a certain time every day (yes you need to do reville). In fact try to include as many aspects that made the military great, but dont overdo it.

3.discipline
everything from putting your plate away after your done eating to cleaning up his footlocker (full of toys not toiletries and socks)

4. Physical fitness
I do not even know how to put a child through physical fitness i am going to talk with karate place managers. The local place that takes 4 year old looks great but i need to find out if they just kick the kids out who dont listen and take their registration fee or if they actually work with them.

You will need to have direct control over his schedule and keep it VERY consistent.

you will need to keep yelling to a minimum i realize for a military dad thats prolly still more yelling that civs would dream. Use the loud cadence voice. think care bear drill sgt, and avoid criticism (sometimes it just pops out)

This is just an idea i'm gonna stop thinking about it now and go look for more people like us in the archive.

______________________________________________________________

Dave

" <FONT font="Fixedsys">My, the earth really is full of things. "
- The King of All Cosmos from
Katamari

 

[John Shields]

For the questions that have come up. As far as I can tell, this stuff happens throughout the day. I haven't (and neither has the daycare) pinpointed it to a specific time, or as a result of napping or not napping. At first it was playful boy stuff... but with kids getting hurt from it being too rough and class being interrupted, we've got a problem.

I really worry about the new school where it's one teacher for a large class. I know he's going to go nuts and get into trouble and I want him to be squared away before that happens.

We recently switched him to a new sleeping schedule to prepare for the new school (but these problems started before then). He used to go to bed very late... and now he's going to be relatively early. It means though, that he gets up earlier (between 6am and 7am). He used to sleep fine until 7am if not 8am or later.

I've already began formulating a schedule of sorts. What to do on what days. I think I have it figured out. My only concern is:

1. How to approach it with him. I want to make sure he knows it's not necessarily punishment, but I don't want it to be the most fun he's ever had. He'll look back on that and think I'm nuts.

2. How to know the limits. I want to start him off SLOW. I imagine he's going to WHINE and WHINE because he hates exerting himself beyond the normal playground time. If I end up waking him up and running him through a bunch of new things, I imagine he'll be overwhelmed.

I'm thinking of calling this a right of passage sort of deal. I just haven't figured out how to approach that either. I thought maybe I'd show him some old photos of me in the military and say, "If you complete my training, you can have a uniform like that" (get him a smaller size) or something like that. Maybe make something up to give to him and he can pass it down to his kids in the future by way of the same "training".

He's really into swords. I'm not sure why... lots of tv I assume. But he's always asking me for a sword. He's seen me looking at them online and already picked out three he wants for his birthday. Of course they're too dangerous now... he wouldn't know what to do with them and stab someone (like his sister). So I think the martial arts might be a good idea for once a week or so. My only issue with that is I'm very much into the traditional "Bushido" type of training and way of thinking. I like arts that date back and have a history. Not a fan of the American-ised karate ala the Karate Kid and the Cobra Kai. But not many places here that are "traditional" accept children especially under the teen age.

I take it you guys see my dilema. Hopefully you guys have some good suggestions.

 

[MomoJA]

I'm thinking of calling this a right of passage sort of deal. I just haven't figured out how to approach that either. I thought maybe I'd show him some old photos of me in the military and say, "If you complete my training, you can have a uniform like that" (get him a smaller size) or something like that. Maybe make something up to give to him and he can pass it down to his kids in the future by way of the same "training".

I love this! Great way of approaching this. I love that the "reward" is not a toy or candy or computer time!

And I've long contended that one of the reasons we see so many problems with teenagers is because we have forfeited our traditional rights of passage. Therefore, they establish their own, such as drinking, losing their virginity, etc.

I know your child is far from teenage hood and this is not the issue, but by creating your own familial right of passage for this age, I think you'll see good results that you can carry through.

 

[IADad]

one thought I had, since you want to use the rite of passage approach and he likes swaords etc, is can you show him some boot camp videos, you know like the stuff they show on military channel? You'd have to be pretty careful about picking one that doesn't have questionable language or too much scary stuff (like people being really pushed to past their limits) maybe you could find some stuff online and do some editing? Anyway, the idea is to show him something he can get excited about guys who can climb over walls etc....

just a thought.

 

[JBKB3]

I think you could incorporate the swords in to something he would get into. Get two foam swords and teach him how to sword fight, assuming you know how to due to your prior martial arts training. You would also train him with escrima sticks as the movements/techniques are similar/same. My daughter has become very proficient with both and it seems to be her weapon of choice. She has trained with nun-chucks, kamas, and bo staff as well, but really likes the sword and the bo staff. She was actually given a real (very sharp) sword that I do not let her play with and plan on mounting it above her belt display. However, I know that if needed she could wield the sword just fine. You could incorporate the other martial arts weapons into your training and believe that this may be more effective than PT as it may keep his interest longer and still allow him to learn. Of course some push up, sit ups, nap of pain, and running should be a part of it as well but perhaps not the main part.

I have see both sides. I am a veteran and think all young adult males should do at least some time in the military especially the current generations. But seeing my young daughter go through the martial arts I feel it is better for younger kids than a strict PT regiment. My oldest daughter also has expressed interest in joining the military. Would be funny to see the Drill Sgts reaction on the hand to hand combat day when she would lay out any male there.

 

[bulbaSOARz]

8 6 7 4 3 0 9

 

[znljubica]

I could write a collection of articles about my son’s behavior at school. During the classes he would be playing and laughing, between classes, he would often fight.
[FONT="Times New Roman", "serif"] The fact that he was playing during [/FONT][FONT="Times New Roman", "serif"]the class, did not disrupt his studying, he was able to play and listen simultaneously, but it would bother with his schoolmates. I would beg, try to persuade, explain why he should not behave like that, he would be calm for a while, but then continue as usual. I went to school willingly and by invitation, consulted educators, psychologists, teachers ... [/FONT]

[FONT="Times New Roman", "serif"] The general opinion was that the work in the classroom could not fully animate him, so he filled rest of the time with games. Teachers, indeed, could not do much about it. In the classroom with 30 pupils with different abilities, classes had to be adjusted for the average, for very good and very bad pupils there was not time.[/FONT]

[FONT="Times New Roman", "serif"]behaving like that, there was not any form of aggressiveness in our family, and the children were not physically punished, they were rarely punished in any ways.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT="Times New Roman", "serif"] I would explain him that any disagreement could not be resolved by fighting, would go again to school by invitation and voluntarily, but there was no change. I really felt helpless. Then he began to practice karate fights, he had several important results in competitions, and a few bruises and scratches on his face after the fight.[/FONT]

[FONT="Times New Roman", "serif"] and bad behavior against him, as if he was not concerned.[/FONT]

[FONT="Times New Roman", "serif"]In my experience, disciplinary penalties have poor results. It is needed the cooperation of parents and teachers, many conversations with the child, even more patience to teach the child about acceptable limits of behavior, and that their behavior should not be a threat to anyone. As you might conclude, it takes a lot of time, too.[/FONT]

 

[stillme]

Totally love the idea of the structure you are talking about. I think it's important to get kids into some kind of activity that gives them discipline and structure like this. Most Karate schools teach about respecting others, too, which is really important. Also, have you considered cub scouts? They also stress much about respecting others and being helpful to society. They do a lot of charity work, too.

 

[JackPeltz]

I gotta admit that what you are describing sounds very risky. When you joined the military, you knew that it would be a tough job. Your son did not enlist. While he may be having behavior problems, which might be addressed by giving him some positive outlets for his energy (like karate), but putting him through physical workouts, which may inflict pain, albeit through muscle exertion, it might still be sending him the same message. Besides, it already sounds like he is getting a consequence for his bad behavior (i.e., timeout, etc.). I think doing physical activities with you kid is awesome, but forced workouts are not far away from spanking in my book. Besides, the boot camps that some kids are sent to often have a negative effect on them. With that said, I think it might be neat to see if you both can meet physical challenges together. It might be interesting to tie it into his behavior at school as well, but not in a punitive way.

 

[Parron]

Hello everyone. Well i think your son is five year old so dear this is not a big age and the children of this age are same as your kid is. But no doubt this is good that you are doing. I agree with Stillme that it is good to get kids into some kind of activity so that they learn easily about discipline.

physical therapy management

 

[Normal Parent]

Thanks for sharing with us!
I was going through similar problems until I read this and followed through for one...hope it helps you like it did me

http://helpgetcontrolofyourchildren.blogspot.com/

 

[dave]

I want to add something:

have some story time as a part of it..
explain war (the glory bits, please dont flame me for saying to show battle in a positive light, but lets let boys be boys.)

I'd go with the battle of Thermopylae, Midway, or something simple where training and good triumph over evil kinda thing.

also getting some old GIjoe episodes off amazon or something might help.

Now this will get me flamed.. but is he interested in firearms.

my biggest bribe in my bag of tricks is "you wanna put on your ballistic goggles and go shoot the pellet gun"
granted hes not old enough to aim or anything but he knows hes getting to do a big boy thing, even if dad is doing most of the work. I recommend the nerf dart guns and swords. I have a nerf rifle that even has "iron sights" and detachable magazines, and when the action jams you clear it just like a real rifle!

If you are worried about guns then use swords but frankly if your worried about that swords are just as bad.

I'm so doing this if my kid has problems this semester. please keep us informed.

 

[kvtsharma]

Hi, i think your son is too small for any strict regimen. Introduce only mild physical training at this age .

 

[MissedOps]

I think using physical fitness as punishment that early might mess up his perception of physical activity in the future.

If he associates physical activity with punishment he could avoid it like the plague. Resulting in yet another in active young adult, which as you know leads to obesity related diseases.