Belligerent 10 Year Old Daughter...

[CycleDude66]

In the past few months our previously sweet and compliant 10 year old daughter has become unruly, defiant, and belligerent. Whenever we ask her to do the simplest of things (clean her room, do her home work, come home from a friend's house), she completely loses it. She will begin screaming and telling us that we can't tell her what to do and we can't make her do it and if we touch her she will tell people we hit her (we don't spank as a form of discipline). A few weeks ago she hit my wife in the arm. I let her know very adamantly that she will not hit anyone in our house again and she got the picture. In her tirades she has twice told us she was so mad she not only hated us, but could kill us. After things calmed down, we talked to her about the seriousness of her comments and she said she would never hurt anyone. We let her know if these comments are made in the wrong setting she could be in big trouble, whether she meant them or not.

At first, my wife and I would come across pretty loud, but not yelling.
But we have learned the importance of staying calm, which has helped a little. But no matter how calm we stay, she is defiant when it comes to boundaries. Fortunately she is not acting this way outside of the house and is doing well in school.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Our 14 year old can try our patience, but never to this level. We feel we are losing control with her and if she pushes too far, don't know what recourse we have to ensure she keeps boundaries. My wife and I will be meeting with a professional counselor in the next couple of weeks.

One other point. She has always been the smallest in her class and her friends treat her that way. So, we feel some this behavior stems from her feeling like she has no control with friends, so she is trying to take control at home.

Thanks for your suggestions!

 

[bssage]

Sounds like your probably handling it as well as anyone. It think it is in the nature of preteen/teen to try and pull away and assert themselves. My boy does this type of thing to a lesser extent at times.

One thing that I think is worth something. My boy and I do a few things together. Chess, Target shooting, building lego kits, Mushroom hunting. I kinda exploit these activities a little by taking advantage of the thoughtful calm nature they provide to bring up things which otherwise have a potential drama component.

I am careful not to let the my talk dominate the activity. But I gently keep poking him about stuff. The last time it was about him showing respect to us when his friends are around.

Listening to the reasonable thoughtful nature of you post I am going to assume you have some of these times with her. Maybe just a dinner out or movie. And maybe be a little more deliberate in steering the conversation. Just you and her or your wife and her. Some times effective parenting is like fishing, picking the right time, Depth, bait and you can still come back empty handed.

My guess is that this is more about her and less about the both of you or your parenting. But let her tell you that.

The only other advice I have is write stuff down. Its hard to remember just what you want to say at the right time. Even if you dont use what you have written. You will be able to remember it better just because you did write it down.

 

[parentastic]

In the past few months our previously sweet and compliant 10 year old daughter has become unruly, defiant, and belligerent.

Hello CycleDude, The first thing that comes to mind as you describe the situation, is: has anything changed recently? New family setting, moving, room arrangements, new custody agreements, new step-parent, new school, an accident or death in the family, anything like this?
Can you think of a specific moment when she started acting out, and look back if something special might have happened at that moment or shortly before?

Whenever we ask her to do the simplest of things (clean her room, do her home work, come home from a friend's house), she completely loses it.

Could you describe what kind of discipline you use (if any) and in which situation? What were the last situations you used discipline, and which kind of discipline (if any) in the past weeks or months since she started acting out? Is it different than before in her life? How was it globally in her life before?

She will begin screaming and telling us that we can't tell her what to do and we can't make her do it and if we touch her she will tell people we hit her (we don't spank as a form of discipline).

OK, I see

A few weeks ago she hit my wife in the arm.

Could you describe, as close as possible, the circumstances that lead to this? Who said what, how, etc.

I let her know very adamantly that she will not hit anyone in our house again and she got the picture. (...) After things calmed down, we talked to her about the seriousness of her comments and she said she would never hurt anyone.

This indicates to me that she is still receptive to listening to you. It also shows she is acting out of strong uncontrolled emotions, not out of bad intent. So the key point there is to hear the message, however badly communicated it is: that she is deeply troubled, has strong emotions about what is going on for her and it has to get out of her.
The strength of her emotions can be seen when she says stuff like this:

In her tirades she has twice told us she was so mad she not only hated us, but could kill us.

Once she was calm again, did you ask her why she said and felt that? Those are extreme, very strong emotions. These emotions are REAL - even if they may only be meant on the spot and with no bad intent. So what is *causing* such resentment? Something is going on, possibly with you her parents and your relationship with her, but also possibly not at all with you guys. In any events, it would be important to find out, and you can only do so if you do not let the words and the tone block your genuine desire to go past this and listen to her (instead of jumping on how bad it is to say such things for instance).

An example of how to do this:
Daughter: I want to kill you!

Parent (when not truly listening): "You could really get in trouble saying this!"

vs

Parent (when truly listening): "Owww... you hate me THAT much... Please tell me why. I want to understand what is going on. I really do."

My wife and I will be meeting with a professional counselor in the next couple of weeks.

This is an excellent idea. A professional counselor will be able to help by digging into the root of why she felt such a surge of defiance and rage. Professional counselors can also help you to break the cycle of escalation and switch to listening mode.

One other point. She has always been the smallest in her class and her friends treat her that way. So, we feel some this behavior stems from her feeling like she has no control with friends, so she is trying to take control at home.

It could be. Check with her teacher if perhaps there has been some bullying going around. You can also ask her directly, but it seems the trust is eroded right now, so she may not tell you even if it is happening, until she feels fully listened.

Hoping this helps,

 

[CycleDude66]

Good ideas! I work a lot and my wife stays at home with our 2 year old all day, then runs our girls to their activities after school. So by the the time I get home, everyone is pretty stressed. We do some things together, but I can see where being more intentional about spending time with just my daughter to have fun and converse would help. About a month ago we started weekly family meetings where we talk about our week.

I also like the idea of writing down what I may say.

Thanks!

 

[CycleDude66]

We haven't had any major changes, other than moving across town during the summer. In doing this she actually is right across the street from one of her classmates.


The first real episode was in September. That was right when we moved across town, but she continued to have her own room and we had only been in the previous house a year and a half. The move was stressful on my wife and I because we were building and the process didn't go as well as we'd hoped.

Discipline:
We usually will ground her and not allow her to go to her friends house. Even talking about discipline with her causes her to go irate. That's when she begins to tell us we can't tell her what to do.

Hitting my wife:
I wasn't upstairs when this happened, but my wife usually does a good job of holding it together, so I'm sure she didn't physically restrain my daughter. It seems that when my daughter was screaming, my wife was trying to take our 2 year old to another room away from our daughter and she went ballistic. We have explained to her the seriousness of her behavior around our 2 year old. He already will cry when she or others scream around him.

This raises another question about what to do with our 2 year old during these episodes. We try to remove him as quickly as possible.

Emotions:
We have talked through this with her after several of these episodes. From what we gather, a lot of her emotions come back to the way she feels she's treated by her friends. I was very proud of her (we told her that) this week for standing up to a friend and saying she wouldn't be treated badly.

Thanks for your response!

 

[IADad]

When you talk about meetings, that reminds me of one piece of advice I got from a family counselor on the radio, was to schedule one on one time with your kids, and do something THEY want to do and be prepared to listen a lot to them. Sure you can ask them stuff, but be sure this time isn't about "see what a good parent I am," as it is about really listening so you get two things - 1) You find out stuff you wouldn't otherwise know, and 2) You demonstrate in a very real way that you DO listen, it shows you Do care.

 

[momtoallkids]

it looks like the removing of privledges and grounding isnt working so well. i went through that with my step son. somethings just dont phase him. try moving up to time outs. no one likes to sit and face a wall for 10 mins. it would also give her time to cool down so that you can productivly discuss her behavior. if that doesnt work, try something more physical like push-ups. thats what we did with luke. if he talks back its push-ups, doesnt get his agenda signed(he was having major issues in school) push-ups! it worked for us.

 

[parentastic]

CycleDude66, a quick (perhaps silly) question, but just to be sure we are on the same page: your wife, is she your daughter bio mom? Or a step
Mom? Not sure because you were saying how "my daughter hit my wife" and not "my daughter hit her mom" - just checking.

 

[CycleDude66]

Yes, she is the biological mom.

 

[cybele]

I think a lot of that is hormones.

Lux does the same, and she is also 10. She goes on these tirades that start off with her not wanting to do something, then end up just being her spurting out your general preteen jargon "youre trying to make me into you" "I hate it here" "Im independent" "You wont let me be me" "I wish I lived with Casey, her mum is cool" and so on. All of this would have come from "Lux, can you take your hamper to the laundry please?"

None of my other kids have been so much into the emotional screaming, we had a bit of it with Sunny, but not the older two. I find that the only way I can deal with it is just to walk away from her when she's screaming. Im sure there will be a comeback to that sooner or later, but at the moment she cant think of anything to say to it other than "MUM... MUM? BUT, ARGH" and when she's calm I make it very clear to her that her voice will only be heard when she is speaking rationally.

 

[parentastic]

I work a lot and my wife stays at home with our 2 year old all day, then runs our girls to their activities after school. So by the the time I get home, everyone is pretty stressed. We do some things together, but I can see where being more intentional about spending time with just my daughter to have fun and converse would help.

Yes, there might be something there. More about this below.

About a month ago we started weekly family meetings where we talk about our week.

Could you describe how this work so far? How does your daughter reacts to these meeting? What kind of things gets discussed? Did she brought some points she'd like to see change, and how was she listened? What's her attitude during these family meetings?

We haven't had any major changes, other than moving across town during the summer. In doing this she actually is right across the street from one of her classmates.

Okay. This is not a minor change, by the way, not for a child. It means her routine has been changed, which at best is destabilizing. I am also wondering if the classmate across the street is more of a friend or a bully? What if she has to walk past her each time she needs to walk home, for instance? Just hypothesis so far, still digging.

The first real episode was in September. That was right when we moved across town, but she continued to have her own room and we had only been in the previous house a year and a half. The move was stressful on my wife and I because we were building and the process didn't go as well as we'd hoped.

This is also significant. Saying in the previous house for only a year and a half also means she has been moving twice within the next 2 years; barely adapting to one house when she has to re-adapt again, so it might be a stressful change. It also makes it difficult to feel safe and secure quickly in a new home: if she can move twice in so little time, why not a third time soon? (from her unconscious point of view). It makes her world less secure.
Finally, if you and your wife have been very stressed about this move, it means that, necessarily, it has impact her. Children are very sensitive to their parent's mood, they are like little sponge for emotions. In addition, your stress means less patience, faster emotional arousal, etc.

Discipline: We usually will ground her and not allow her to go to her friends house. Even talking about discipline with her causes her to go irate. That's when she begins to tell us we can't tell her what to do.

If she is not feeling comfortable yet in the new house, and she is grounded, I am wondering if her leaving the house to meet friends outside is not also acting as a security vent, allowing her to adapt to the new environment slowly while she can get a glimpse back of "old normality" at her old friends. When she is grounded, perhaps, this forces more into this new home and it might add to her stress. Again - pure hypothesis here. See below for a larger picture.

I wasn't upstairs when this happened, but my wife usually does a good job of holding it together, so I'm sure she didn't physically restrain my daughter.

I think this event is very significant, because it was right when she became most emotional, enough to become physical - so to me, that's an indication there is more to dig here.
Could you get a first-hand account of what happened, in as much details as possible, both from your wife and from your daughter? For your daughter, be careful how you ask: Not as in "I am here to judge how bad you acted" but more as in "I am really curious to understand what is going on.. you can tell me anything, you won't get punished. I am just trying to understand. It's okay to be angry sometimes. Will you help me understand you?" sort of thing.
I also note that this event happened in relation with your 2 year old.
Chronologically, he was born 2 years ago, right before you guys decided to move in the previous place, right? And now you are moving again.

We have talked through this with her after several of these episodes. From what we gather, a lot of her emotions come back to the way she feels she's treated by her friends.

Okay, it could be related to that, totally or partially.
I think the key question about this, when you get a chance to have a deeper conversation with your daughter about this, is: if she is angry about how her classmates and friends are treating her, why is she taking it out on you? You could ask her, in a simple genuine way, about this:
- Open the conversation on her friend and how she gets treated by them
- Validate her emotions and paraphrase in your own words how difficult you agree it is
- Let her fully tell you until she has nothing more to say about it, fully listening to her, reflecting back her emotions to show you really understand. When she is done, then ask:
"Ouch... I can see how difficult this must have been. It's really nasty to be treated that way by these friends of yours. I am curious though - you told me this is why you were angry at mom or at me these past weeks, but I am not sure I understand why. I think I could understand if you were mad at them for this, but I'd like to understand why you were mad at mom or at me. Do you feel we should have done something about it?"
and get her to talk about this.

I was very proud of her (we told her that) this week for standing up to a friend and saying she wouldn't be treated badly.

Here is another difficult hypothesis: could it be possible that she feels you are treating her the same way she is treated by her classmates? If she does (whether it is what you do or not, the question is not there as it is how she <I>perceives</I> it), it may feel very paradoxical to her. One one hand, she is told: "Stand up to the people who bully you! I am proud of you for standing up when you are treated badly!" and on the other hand, she is being told not to talk back to her parents, and not to say it when she (may) feel treated badly by you guys. The message can be confusing to her.

Now, if you put all these elements together, I think it may starts to build a pattern, an overall pictures that could help us understand your daughter's point of view.

Two year ago, she is in a happy family where all is well and she feels happy and loved. Then, there is this new baby that comes into the family. The bay takes a lot of time and attention and she is no longer the "baby" of the family with all the attention. Mom is no longer there for her. She is fully onto taking care of the baby. Dad and mom no longer sleeps well, become less patient, ask more of her.
Worst, the family moves (potentially because of this new addition in the family). She was 8 at the time. I don't know if it also meant a school change. It certainly meant the routine, already severely changed with the new baby, is now even more changed. She needs to adapt to a new home, less available parents, and a new sibling.
The tensions possibly grows in her for 2 years, not being fully expressed. She grows, but not as much as her friends. She becomes the target of intimidation and her social life at school is degrading. While this happen, WHAM, there is another move. She has to re-adapt again. In the process of this, the bullying might be continuing and she is being told to resist and stand up, refusing to be treated badly. She may have taken this to heart and decided to also resist the discipline and the control she feels over her life from her parents - possible a desperate cry for help as she feels she controls less and less of her life as she struggles to adapt.

This is just a huge pile of (educated) hypothesis. All, or some of these might be completely off, I am only working here with what I have. But I think it can provide some possible insights as to what is going on.

 

[parentastic]

If the pattern described above is indeed what is going on (at least partially), we can try some solutions now. But more discipline won't help her, as it will only reinforce her insecurities. What she need - if I am not too far off - is:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Opportunities to truly be listened, without being offended by her attitude, when she is angry and need to vent, so that the strong emotions can be validated and can get out and she can feel understood</LI>
  <LI>
• More one-on-one quality time with each parent individually, away from the baby</LI>
  <LI>
• A possible intervention around bullying, if it is happening (including verifying if the bullies could be living right next door)</LI>
  <LI>
• And a real, open heart dialogue with her about how you have come to realize you didn't spent much time with her and want to change that, so she knows that things are changing and that there is a recognition of it. One possible way to handle this is to go shopping for a big calendar with her (which provides for a first one-on-one activity already) and then sit together at the dinner table with the calendar and agree in advance on time slots reserved only for her, with you or mom. Then put the calendar on the fridge: this is your tacit contract with her now.</LI>

</LIST>
The goal of these strategies is to change her current insecure-attachment mode back into secure attachment, which in turn should bring back her self confidence and peace, and naturally have her back to wanting to listen to your influence and do what you do.
There might be more to say in term of strategy, but I'll need to learn more.

Hoping this helps already,

 

[CycleDude66]

Thanks for all the helpful information. My wife and I have written out a list of consequences for behavior (boundaries) and will calmly and consistently begin enforcing them. For example, if she doesn't come home from her friends house when told, she loses two days of hanging out with her friend after school.

One concern we have is the way our daughter will respond to rules. As I mentioned earlier, she, on one occasion got so angry that she threatened physical harm. This may sound crazy, but what do we do if she hits her mom (or me)? I don't want to physically hurt her, so what recourse do we have other than restraining her?

Thanks!

 

[Mom2all]

I just have one question as the others have been asked. Her class mate that is next door.. did she play with her often before away from school, and how does she act toward her family? I noticed with my own, they could pick up some pretty nasty habits when hanging out with friends. Monkey see, monkey do type thing. Might be worth checking into.

 

[bssage]

Pstc and I seem to disagree from time to time. But I think he is on to something here.

One factor that not a lot of attention has been given to is hormones. I know you mentioned it CD and my guess is it may be exaggerating the situation.

But back to Pstc's advice. Stop me if I am wrong Pstc. But I believe he is talking about "active listening" And that is a very specific skill. Its also a skill that can be learned. I think a search will supply some instruction on strategies and the most effective way to implement it.

We parents (myself included) tend to "causal listen" both to our children and and other people. When we do that we fill in the blanks ourselves. Things get misunderstood or completely missed when we do this. I am guilty as anyone with this. But I am aware of this shortcoming of mine and try hard to identify and correct when it happens.

I think what you have done with the meetings, and discipline are all good and necessary. But since that is done. I would shift my focus.

IMHO

 

[parentastic]

But back to Pstc's advice. Stop me if I am wrong Pstc. But I believe he is talking about "active listening" And that is a very specific skill. Its also a skill that can be learned. I think a search will supply some instruction on strategies and the most effective way to implement it.

Yes, exactly. It's not just listening as we usually do by letting the sound enter our ears. It's a specific skill that is routinely used by counselors and psychologist. It involves:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Listening to what a child has said</LI>
  <LI>
• Thinking in your head about what <I>emotion</I> the child might be feeling, <I>under</I> the surface of what the child is saying</LI>
  <LI>
• Name that emotion in your own words (what counselors calls, 'reflecting', like a mirror)</LI>

</LIST>
For example:

Child: "- I wish you were dead!"
You: "- You really are angry with me right now."
Child: "- YES!!!"

If the child says "yes", you are on the right track. Children will naturally offer more, because they have been <I>validated</I> in their feelings.
If you missed the emotion, or didn't really get what was underlying what was said, the child will naturally correct you:

Child: " - NO! It's not that, it's just that I can never be alone!"

and now you go on again with a new reflect of the emotion you now better understand:

You: " - You feel always invaded, like I am on your case all the time?"
Child: "- YES!! "

etc.
This leads you to TRULY discover what is going on, and at the same time, the very fact of feeling <I>listened</I> is often enough for the anger to leave completely and that creates an opening for calm discussion after.

We parents (myself included) tend to "causal listen" both to our children and and other people. When we do that we fill in the blanks ourselves. Things get misunderstood or completely missed when we do this. I am guilty as anyone with this.

On the flip side, it's virtually impossible to do active listening all the time... it's really normal to casual listen most of the time, or we'd just turn crazy Even trained counselors can't do it for more than an hour or two at a time, it's draining because 100% of your attention is present, to "decode" the emotions and the sub text without judgment and name it back.

But it's an invaluable tool.
If you can use it, even once in a blue moon from time to time, it can make a powerful difference for your child and really shift or even break a pattern and start on a new basis with someone you care (children, wife, husband, any relationship).

Thanks for mentioning this, bssage.

PS: Why do you say pstc rather than parentastic? Just curious...

 

[bssage]

PS: Why do you say pstc rather than parentastic? Just curious...

Just lazy. I abbreviate most names when I make responses.