Dealing with teenagers...

[Jake72]

I don't really know how to explain my situation without writing you a book, so I'll try my best. Feel free to criticize me, but I really need advice and help with this.

I have two kids, Ash and Tay. Ash is my 17 year old son and Tay is my 15 year old daughter. Ash for the most part doesn't talk to me. He'll tell me where he's going, when he'll be back, and what he got on his tests or report card, but that's about it. He blocked me out from his life several years back, when he was about 14. He has told me he doesn't hate me, but he doesn't like me either, he's just done with me. He has never told me what his final straw was, or what I did, but I can kind of figure it out on my own by putting myself in his shoes.

Now, my daughter doesn't feel this way about me. Or she didn't. Today she and I got into a heated discussion, well okay I was yelling at her, about her bad grade on a final. I tend to get really nasty with my words, but I never really realized how terrible that was of me until today. She was looking off to the side purposely avoiding eye contact when I was yelling at her, so I got even more angry and told her to look at me when I was talking to her. She looked at me and screamed at me (she never says things she doesn't mean) "I hate you. You're a terrible father and I hate you!" Well, me being the complete idiot I am, said back "Good, cause I hate you too. God. Sometimes I wish I never had kids!" and I turned around and walked a few steps away from her. She started crying and ran up to her room. I didn't mean <I>at all</I> what I said. My son was sitting off in the same room sort of out of my sight. He sat up and and told me she was right. I was a terrible dad and that she had every right to hate me. My response was, again, more of a smartalec remark, I told him "oh common it's not like I hit her or anything. I think she'll survive." He went on to yell at me about how I don't get it and started telling me about how he'll take whatever verbal abuse (I've never heard anyone call it that before) I throw at him, but girls are different and they take everything to heart and it really digs at them. I left the house like an angry little child running away from my problems.

But, they were right. They were both right, I don't know what to do. I'm afraid it's too late to fix this with either of them. I know I'm probably way too late to fix my relationship with my son, but I might still have a chance with my daughter. I know I need to learn to bite my tongue when I'm angry, I'll work on that, but I need to know what to do or say to my daughter just to help her understand I really do want to fix this. I tried explaining it to her earlier, told her I loved her and didn't mean anything I said, none of it was true, but she just sat there with an attitude and asked me if I was done and if she could go. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

First of all, apologise to her. Say you're sorry and you mean it. As for controling yourself -- maybe some family counseling would help?

 

[Jake72]

First of all, apologise to her. Say you're sorry and you mean it. As for controling yourself -- maybe some family counseling would help?

I already apologized to her, I did that last night but she couldn't care less.

I don't know about family counseling. I tried the whole counseling thing, we all did, when my wife died, but I dunno there is something about spilling all my problems to someone who pretends to understand but really doesn't that just bothers me.

 

[Xero]

I feel so bad for you, Jake. I don't have much time to talk now as I am about to go to work, but I wanted to tell you that you're not the worst parent in the world, and even the best parents slip up and say something they don't mean sometimes. Its not easy raising kids by yourself. I think that there are probably a lot of things that you might need to change to make things better, but I really think that there is always a chance to make things better with family. Even if they aren't happy with who you have been for a while, trust me in their hearts your kids still love you.

I will post later tonight after I get home from work or tomorrow morning with some suggestions.

 

[Father_0f_7]

he'll take whatever verbal abuse (I've never heard anyone call it that before) I throw at him

I don't know if what you said is totally verbal abuse but it is boarderline. And the fact that he thinks, without hesitation, means that you two have some problems you need to work out.

I know you said you have tried family counseling and it didn't work, or you were just to uncomfortable....try it again. It WILL be uncomfortable, it WILL be weird and it may not help, but keeping your family together is the most important thing.

"oh common it's not like I hit her or anything. I think she'll survive."

I was physically abused, sexually abused, and emotionally/verbally abused as a kid. The bruses/scars healed, I got over it, the sexual abuse I've moved on from. But the words he said to me have stuck with me to this day...29 years later.

No matter what anyone says, words hurt more, or at least longer.

 

[Jake72]

I don't know if what you said is totally verbal abuse but it is boarderline. And the fact that he thinks, without hesitation, means that you two have some problems you need to work out.

I know you said you have tried family counseling and it didn't work, or you were just to uncomfortable....try it again. It WILL be uncomfortable, it WILL be weird and it may not help, but keeping your family together is the most important thing.

I know my son and I have problems, we have for years. Like I said, he really hasn't talked to me since he was 14. He's so formal with me, he acts as if I'm not even his dad anymore, just the person he has to live with until he graduates. Like I said, I can sort of guess as to what was the final straw for him, but I really am not sure. He doesn't talk to me so I can't find out. No matter what I ask him, he'll either ignore me or give me a yes or no answer.

Counseling didn't work for me because I felt like the person trying to help was being so fake, and I could just tell on the inside he thought I was pathetic.

My daughter wasn't really bothered by her mother dying. She hated my wife, my wife had been cheating on me, which I didn't know but apparently the kids knew for well over a year, and my daughter always told my wife she was tearing apart the family. When she died in a car accident, my daughter really wasn't bothered. Which scared me and what made me take us to counseling, then after each session my daughter would be in this depressed mood for days after. I hated the way she was after counseling more than I did before we started going, and after talking with her about if she felt like counseling was helping or not I decided we would just quit going. It was making everything worse, not better.

No matter what anyone says, words hurt more, or at least longer.

I honestly don't know how to respond to this. I guess you're right.

If you haven't gotten over the verbal part of the abuse after almost thirty years, my kids will probably never forgive me. They're going to hate me forever. I don't want that, I don't want to never see them again after they graduate. I haven't gone back to see my parents after I left home when I was 18, I love my kids I don't want that happening to us. I just don't know what to do to keep that from happening.

 

[Father_0f_7]

The only reason I never forgave my step father for everything he did to me was because he has never apologized.

If you felt that way with that psychologist/counselor you may want to go to another one. When we first started looking for a psychologist for our son Billy, we "interviewed" with about 7 or 8 to see which one he was more comfortable with.

 

[Jake72]

The only reason I never forgave my step father for everything he did to me was because he has never apologized.

If you felt that way with that psychologist/counselor you may want to go to another one. When we first started looking for a psychologist for our son Billy, we "interviewed" with about 7 or 8 to see which one he was more comfortable with.

Okay, so do I force her to go then? I'll be willing to go if its our only option, but I presented the idea to her tonight and she outright refused.

 

[Father_0f_7]

Ask her what she needs you to say/do to make things right. Then do it (as long as it is resonable).

I know it sounds like you are giving her all the power right now but I think under the circumstances it's okay.
Anyone with any other advice...?

 

[Choppy]

It sounds like there's a lot on your plate right now.

Your daughter wasn't bothered by her mother dying? Seriously?

I would venture to guess that she was and still is extremely bothered by it, but not caring about it (or at least putting on that front) is a means of coping.

Fixing relationships like this isn't the kind of thing that happens overnight. It's not like you can figure out the right thing to say, or got to a psychologist for a few sessions and you'll be the perfect family. Your history - whatever it is - will always be with you. The good news is that if you're not happy with how things are, you can change them. They may not ever be "perfect" but you can make them better than they are now.

So the question is how to start.

Some possible things to explore:

(1) Time in. How much time do you spend with your kids? When you spend time with them, what are you doing? Would you call that quality time? What can you do to increase your quality time with them?

(2) You've talked about a "final straw" with your son. But why focus on a "final" straw. What about all the other pieces of staw that piled up before it? How are they getting piled on? What little changes can you make on a daily basis that will improve your relationship with your kids?

(4) People tend to live up to the expecations we set for them. What expectations do you have for your children? How do you reinforce them?

(4) You have to work at hapiness. Take the time to remind yourself of the good, positive aspects of your relationships. Set small goals for yourself - rather than trying to completely "fix" your relationship with your son, try working on smaller aspects of the relationship such as: learning how he spends his spare time, what projects he has on the go, learning what he things of current events, learning what plans he has for the future, etc.

 

[Jake72]

It sounds like there's a lot on your plate right now.

Your daughter wasn't bothered by her mother dying? Seriously?

I would venture to guess that she was and still is extremely bothered by it, but not caring about it (or at least putting on that front) is a means of coping.

That actually never crossed my mind, just because of how much she's opened up to me in the past several years about the issue and I was convinced she honestly wasn't all that bothered. I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

Fixing relationships like this isn't the kind of thing that happens overnight. It's not like you can figure out the right thing to say, or got to a psychologist for a few sessions and you'll be the perfect family. Your history - whatever it is - will always be with you. The good news is that if you're not happy with how things are, you can change them. They may not ever be "perfect" but you can make them better than they are now.

So the question is how to start.

Some possible things to explore:

(1) Time in. How much time do you spend with your kids? When you spend time with them, what are you doing? Would you call that quality time? What can you do to increase your quality time with them?

I spend a lot of time with them. I really don't do anything outside of work. When I'm done for the day I come home and I don't leave unless my kids are coming with me, or it's to drop them off somewhere. A lot of times it's just watching TV with my daughter but I'm here.

(2) You've talked about a "final straw" with your son. But why focus on a "final" straw. What about all the other pieces of staw that piled up before it? How are they getting piled on? What little changes can you make on a daily basis that will improve your relationship with your kids?

See, I get what you mean, but the final straw probably would have been almost enough by itself. I said the one thing that I knew would really dig deep at him while I was drunk not too long after I had started building his trust in me. I made a lot of changes after that. I stopped drinking, I stopped going out with buddies, and I started spending more time at home focusing on my kids. It's been almost four years, and nothing has changed between the two of us. He's never confirmed that was what it was, but I am pretty sure it was.

(4) People tend to live up to the expecations we set for them. What expectations do you have for your children? How do you reinforce them?

(4) You have to work at hapiness. Take the time to remind yourself of the good, positive aspects of your relationships. Set small goals for yourself - rather than trying to completely "fix" your relationship with your son, try working on smaller aspects of the relationship such as: learning how he spends his spare time, what projects he has on the go, learning what he things of current events, learning what plans he has for the future, etc.

Okay, I'll try this. It seems like a great idea. Thank you.

 

[singledad]

No matter what anyone says, words hurt more, or at least longer.

^^ That ^^.

Now, how to fix it. IMO you've already covered step 1 - realising that what you did is wrong, and deciding to try to fix it.

Counseling didn't work for me because I felt like the person trying to help was being so fake, and I could just tell on the inside he thought I was pathetic.

Not all councillors / therapists are created equal. I've seen several different therapists in my life, and I can only remember 2 really good ones - the rest were rubbish. So my advice would be to keep searching until you find a therapist you can work with. It needs to be someone you feel comfortable with and who you can trust completely.

My daughter wasn't really bothered by her mother dying. She hated my wife, my wife had been cheating on me, which I didn't know but apparently the kids knew for well over a year, and my daughter always told my wife she was tearing apart the family. When she died in a car accident, my daughter really wasn't bothered. Which scared me and what made me take us to counseling, then after each session my daughter would be in this depressed mood for days after. I hated the way she was after counseling more than I did before we started going, and after talking with her about if she felt like counseling was helping or not I decided we would just quit going. It was making everything worse, not better.

I'd like to dispute the fact that she wasn't bothered. Sometimes convincing yourself that you don't care make things easier to cope with, at least in the short term. Her being depressed after therapy also makes complete sense if you assume that she has convinced herself that she doesn't care. See - that thing with therapy, at least in the beginning, is that it isn't easy, and it isn't fun at all. Therapy forces you to face your daemons. It forces you to get honest with yourself, and allow the pain that you are trying to hide, to come to the surface. Therapy can, at times, be quite a hellish experience. That's when you need to stay focussed and keep on going until you get through to the other side. Its the only way. You cannot get over pain you have never allowed yourself to feel - its as simple as that. That is also why psychiatrists often prescribe anti-depressants when someone starts therapy: To help them through those hard beginning stages. Frankly, a good therapist should have explained this to you.

I would also second Choppy's advice, as well as Fo7's advice about asking her what she needs you to do...

 

[TabascoNatalie]

There are very different kinds of counselling and therapy. There are therapists who can visit you at home, at if its too distressing or embarassing "to go to a psychiatric clinic".
after all, maybe you don't actually need a therapy, but maybe some kind of parenting course or self-help group, where you get various reading materials and get to meet other people who had similar experiences.

 

[Aunt]

as a counsellor i can advise that one size does not fit all. Many people who say they dont like the profession as a whole have not gone to one who fits their needs. it is a very personal thing.

But I would advise some sort of help on anger management. remember teens are almost designed to push buttons. Many people also say that verbal abuse has hurt them more than physical abuse so bear that in mind when you talk to your kids.
Sometimes when I feel really angry I actually delay the discussion or openly tell my niece that I am too angry to discuss it right now or that we need some thinking time. if she has done something wrong, she has time to "sweat" over the punishment If not and it is just a difference of opinion it is a good time for us both to calm down.

With your son I agree with the advice given. Apologise and then really work on things. He will be sceptical at first so be patient. Make the effort to praise him or say thankyou even if just for the little things. Like getting home when he says he will. Watch tv with him. insist on at least one or 2 meals together a week. Both of the kids will complain and the boy may resent it at first but they will in the long run be glad to do it.

 

[Jake72]

as a counsellor i can advise that one size does not fit all. Many people who say they dont like the profession as a whole have not gone to one who fits their needs. it is a very personal thing.

But I would advise some sort of help on anger management. remember teens are almost designed to push buttons. Many people also say that verbal abuse has hurt them more than physical abuse so bear that in mind when you talk to your kids.
Sometimes when I feel really angry I actually delay the discussion or openly tell my niece that I am too angry to discuss it right now or that we need some thinking time. if she has done something wrong, she has time to "sweat" over the punishment If not and it is just a difference of opinion it is a good time for us both to calm down.

With your son I agree with the advice given. Apologise and then really work on things. He will be sceptical at first so be patient. Make the effort to praise him or say thankyou even if just for the little things. Like getting home when he says he will. Watch tv with him. insist on at least one or 2 meals together a week. Both of the kids will complain and the boy may resent it at first but they will in the long run be glad to do it.

Thanks, every one has been giving me good advice and I have been trying it.

We already eat dinner together a few times a week when we go out to eat. I made a new rule the other night that everyone's cell phones (including mine) had to be on silent and sitting face down on the table. Made for one awkwardly quiet dinner because both of the kids were pouting the whole time, but I plan on keeping the rule in place.

After I asked my daughter what I could do on Monday, she told me there was nothing I could do, but later decided to give me another chance after we had a long talk. So she's talking to me again.

For Ashton, I like the idea of setting small goals, and thanking him for the little things so I will start doing that.

 

[Xero]

I like what everyone else has said. As for Ashton - maybe you can try to connect with him here and there, on his level? I know that my husband is very different from his father, and he is always wishing that his dad would show a little interest in the things he likes to do. I think maybe in another thread you said he plays Xbox, like Halo 3 and stuff? Why don't you come up to him every now and again and ask him if you can try to play with him? Maybe it wouldn't be that much fun for you lol, or maybe it would be a pain in the butt, but I bet you would both end up laughing while he tries to teach you how to do it. Its more about the bonding than whether or not you like to, you know? What else does he like to do? Ask him what it's about, ask him to explain it to you, ask him if you can try etc. I know it sounds goofy, but imagine if you guys could connect a little bit on a different level. It could at least strike up conversation, and it would probably mean a lot to him that you show an interest in what he likes.

I remember we had a playstation and a Sega when we were kids and my mom sometimes would randomly ask to play with us, and we LOVED it. We would always laugh our butts off and tell her what to do and cheer her on, or just enjoy kicking her butt lol. It was cool to us that she would sometimes like some of the songs that we liked, stuff like that. Its silly, but its a start if its not something you already do. Something really funny to try - buy a mad lib book or do some online with them. I mean, really it can be anything. If you can get them interested in some of the classic board games, go for that too. My mom played board games and card games with us sometimes, and we liked it but I know not every kid is interested. Its all of this silly stuff that really helps parents connect directly with their kids, if even a little bit at a time. Its nice just to hang out with each other sometimes, it doesn't always have to be serious.

I agree that sometimes I am too angry to figure myself out, and I too have struggled with yelling or saying things I shouldn't. I am always working on myself, and actually I've gotten pretty awesome at self control. A lot of it is about walking away, and coming back to it after cooling down. Usually what I do is ask my husband to handle it when I feel like I can't, but I know that isn't an option for you. Once you come back to the situation, if things start to get out of hand on your kids' part (cause amazingly enough, its not always us lol) and you feel the situation losing control, tell them they need to go cool off and that you can try again later. Either way, they will know that they have done something wrong and that it will need to be talked about and that there will be consequences. Just because you don't tackle the situation right away doesn't mean it can't be handled at all.

Like other have said, also don't always focus on the bad things. Its so easy to get stuck on only pointing out the bad, because most of the time bad things require our attention, whereas good things can be ignored because there's nothing wrong with them. Its good to always notice the good things, and point them out like crazy. If they do something constuctive or helpful on their own, go out of your way to say "Hey, thanks!" or "That looks really nice! Good job!" and that kind of thing. Try not to be too controlling, remember how old they are getting and as they get older a lot of the control needs to transfer to them as once they are 18 and/or moved out the control is all theirs and they will need to know what to do with it! At this age you can slowly transfer the focus a little bit more towards friendship than control in a way. Teenagers are so judgemental lol, you know? And sensitive!

Another thing, I know from what you say that your daughter knows your intentions, but make sure that your son knows that you want to fix things with him. Be very honest and open with him, even if it makes you look vulnerable. Tell him you don't like the way things are, and that it hurts and scares you to think that one day you might just lose him because you're not the most agreeable guy 100% of the time. Tell him you're only human, and you want to try your best, and that you want to put the past in the past and maybe apologize for that "last straw" and perhaps the straws leading up to it. Obviously, none of you have had an easy life. Just because you are the only adult involved doesn't mean you should shoulder all the weight of making things right, or all the weight of acting normal when things aren't right. You deserve to be a little out of whack too. All things can be worked on, tell them you need their help. One big thing might be to encourage them to POLITELY (not rudely or in a mean snotty way) let you know when you are hurting their feelings, or acting in the way that makes them dislike you. If they can gently point it out, and you can promise to listen to them and take a moment out of the ring to refresh yourself, it might make them feel more in control of helping the relationship and it might help you guys to really work together on fixing things.

I think there is still plenty of hope left for you guys, and don't worry just about every teenager thinks their parents are the worst parents in the world sometimes.

 

[sbattisti]

Just to add my own thoughts . . . although there are already a ton of good ideas in here.

First, NEVER give up. They're still very young. It may not be now, and it may not be a year from now, but the world is full of parents that have forged better relationships with their kids after a rocky start. As far as your daughter goes, think about when you're angry, or when you were mad at your parents, or ANYONE. If they came and apologized right after an argument, would you have been receptive? Most likely not. These fresh wounds take a while to scab over.

Second, you have to stop with the verbally abusive or cruel/sarcastic comments, and you have to stop NOW. When you look at what are typically considered "abusive relationships," one of the hallmarks is that the abuser behaves inappropriately, and then apologizes and says he'll try harder. You CANNOT let this be you if you want to get your kids back. One verbal explosion can undo six months of positive progress. In my opinion you would benefit most from professional help, but here are some good tips:

Anger management tips: 10 ways to tame your temper - MayoClinic.com

Third, be patient. It sounds like you've done a LOT of damage. Do NOT expect your kids to suddenly be like, "Oh, dad said he's going to change, we're on board!" You have to prove it to them again and again, over a long period of time. In one sense, it helps that they are young. On the other, they are teenagers and prone to exaggerated senses of unfairness or resentment.

In my opinion, I wouldn't press the family counseling issue too hard . . . yet. IMO they could see that as, "Oh sure, now all of a sudden DAD wants to work on things, so WE have to get dragged to some stupid counseling." In order for counseling to be effective, everyone needs to be at least a moderately willing participant.

My approach would be this:

Sit them down, and tell them you've had a epiphany about this, and you don't want to lose them. That you want to find a way to forge a better relationship with them, but that you understand that you've made mistakes and that it won't be easy. Even explain to them that you're spending time on a parenting forum to get advice or whatever.

Then ask them if they're willing to work with you to help mold you into the sort of father they can respect and admire.

Something like that.

Just my thoughts, though. Good luck!

~s

 

[Jake72]

Thanks Xero for all the advice. I used to play Xbox and Nintendo with him all the time when he was younger, but usually he had asked me to play with him. I actually got him a couple games for christmas, maybe I'll get him to play those with me on Saturday.


Thank you for the link Sbattisti and all the advice. I know this isn't going to fix itself over night, and I do fully intend on changing, not just long enough to get them talking to me again. I did promise my daughter the other night I wouldn't yell at her like that again, I am fully intent on keeping that promise. I know if I don't she'll never forgive me.

 

[sbattisti]

Don't be too apocalyptic about it. "Never" is a long, long time, and at the heart of it, children want to be loved by their parents. You can't undo what was done. But you can forge a new relationship so that 10 years from now the bad stuff just becomes "that bad stuff in the context of a good relationship."

Don't promise the moon. Promise you're going to work hard at it, and work with them to set up a way for them to safely remind you when you're not standing up to your end of the bargain.

 

[Aunt]

the only thing i would add to this is not to beat yourself up too much. If you are filled with guilt it can make you tempted to let your kids run riot. The past is the past and you are now doing everything you can to change it.