Defending yourself or tit for tat?...

[MomoJA]

This topic was addressed in the thread about Casey and the bully, but a couple of things have come up lately that I've felt were interesting and relevant. I'd be interested in the observations of others about this.

Some weeks ago two of my students, on the way back to class after our break were about to break out into a fight. They were both suspended for five days, and after interviewing both girls, the AP called down a third girl and suspended her for a couple of days as well.

The one girl is a total bully. She is the type of girl who, if you accidentally bumped into her would cause a scene and try to intimidate you with her loud, rude bluster. Her friend, who got two days, is the same way. The third girl is normally rather quiet. But on this day, she stood up to the first girl, and it got ugly, though they never actually came to blows. Apparently, the first girl had been harrassing the third girl for some time. I never observed it because it mostly happened outside of class, and the loud-mouthed girl didn't seem to single anyone out on whom to excrete her anger and loathing. Pretty much everyone but her two friends was fair game. A part of me was happy to see the third girl give the first girl a taste of her own medicine. I almost called her mother to tell her that, but it would have been unprofessional of me.

Just yesterday, we had a guest speaker who used to work in a Headstart (0-3) program. She also used to work in a family education program in which she would go into the homes of people with infants and toddlers and teach the parents how to parent. During conversation after her talk, she explained to me that when little Johnny would go home with a note from Headstart (0-3) that little Jimmy had bitten him or hit him, he would be told that he'd better go back the next day and beat the sh*t out of Jimmy or he was going to get his butt kicked when he got home.

I've observed this sort of attitude from my students since I started teaching, but I had no idea it was taught so explicitly or so young. I never really understood it until yesterday.

So where do we draw the line between teaching our children to stand up for themselves and this? My daughter got into trouble for scratching a little girl who had scratched her first. I told her she shouldn't have scratched the girl back, but I also don't want her to be a tattle-tale. (Which brings me to another topic related to the culture of my students who think pointing fingers even at murderers is "ratting" someone out and the worse thing a person can do.) I tell her to firmly tell the other child to stop and to walk away, but that's not always going to work. I don't know the answer, and I don't expect anyone else to, but it's an interesting and agonizing parenting dilemma.

 

[NancyM]

Yes it is an interesting subject, and a scary one as well.

I have to admitt that I told my son he is allowed to hit back if someone hits him first, and to be honest I also told him to try to hit the person back even harder than he was hit..hoping it might prevent the bully from picking on him further.

I hated to have to tell him that, but my son had such a gentle nature I knew he would get picked on sooner or later. I also know that many teachers and teacher aides turn their back when kids are getting picked on, because I've seen that first hand when I worked in the schools. So I told him to go to them as a second option.

So with the mind set that my son is pretty much on his own when he's wasn't with me, I justified it by telling myself he, and every other child, has the same rights as any adult would have, as far as defending himself. And I stand by that thought.

 

[IADad]

I have not yet had to tell a DS to defend himself, although we've been close. We've certainly never told him to just take it, from anybody and we do encourage him to step in and stand up for someone else being picked on. I think he's developed enough of a compas that if pushed to the right extent he would defend himself...probably a discussion we need to have again.

 

[mom2many]

This is one of those fine lines that is so hard to really pin down. I have always told my kids that when they have tried to resolve something, such as you described, with everything that doesn't resort to violence first, then they are free to do what they need to do in order to keep themselves safe then and only then may they resort to physical contact.

 

[Antoinette]

Felix is so strong willed i am doing all i can to teach him it is never okay to hit another person because he is just such a boy. he loves sticks and dirt and boy things and i don't want him to get into fighting when he is older. of course if he was hit first i wouldn't want him to just take it but (although he is only 2) he doesn't seem to have a lay down and take it personality.

 

[NancyM]

I also expressed to Max that it's ok to run! lol When I spoke to him about defending himself, I always told him in a way I thought was easier for him to remember.

I think if you say to much, or aren't direct with little kids they are're not really sure what to do when they are alone. so I just make it short and sweet, like, "Remember you aren't allowed to hit children just because you get mad, or can't get what you want...use your words for that, But if someone hits you than it's ok to hit them back. " I also added that even if the teacher sends him to the principal we will not get mad at him if he hit some one back in self defense.

Like I said he was not an agressive child, and I began to notice when he was about 2 yrs old that there are many agressive kids out there. And they will hurt other children for nothing. You won't know that unless you watch.

I use to walk in on the day care unanounced, or sometimes I'd observe from the window, it wasn't usually my son getting pushed around but there was always one or two children who were.

You really don't know what your child is going through when they aren't with you, depending on the age, they don't usually tell their parents they are being picked on. I think they need to know that they are valued, no one is better than them, and no one is allowed to hurt them in any way.

You really can't do much else.

 

[yeojungi]

Great discussion! I had a similar dilemma when I moved in to the current neighborhood. While it is a very nice area, I at times notice there is this "wild wild west" feel to it when it comes to kids playing. After some discussion with my neighbor/friend whose DD got kicked and punched in school, we concluded that the kids should be protected by law and order, but when there is none available, they should be allowed to defend themselves. So, if my DD gets picked on, pushed, or hit, she would tell the bully to stop and report to the teacher asap. If the teacher doesn't do anything to prevent such a thing from happening again, DD will do anything in her power to defend herself. Luckily, she hasn't had to do anything like that.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

in my opinion, the bottom line is not to hit first. only if somebody attacks you physically, then hit back. but never first, never for verbal insults.
and if the attacker is much bigger, or more than one -- then run and tell the adults. health is more important than "honour".

for adults, they will never find out what really happened between children. parents take sides of their own kids, teachers -- of those who got hurt more on that moment or those who cry louder (and some kids can be great actors).

 

[Incogneato]

I will tell my son the same thing my father told me when I was being picked on. You tell the person to stop and you don't like that, then tell the teacher. If the teacher doesn't resolve the situation, and they hit you again, then you have every right to defend yourself. If you get in trouble, daddy will come up personally and handle the situation with the administration.

 

[scoobymom]

Ugh.. the bullys!! The bullys are everywhere!!!

 

[JBKB3]

When my oldest daughter was younger we had a real problem when she would get mad at us she would hit/kick/punch/bite/pull hair..etc. As she got older we were able to get her to use her words. She never got in trouble for physical behavior in school, but she was not afraid to stand up to a bully even at a young age.

Now...she is 10 and will testing for her Black Belt in Karate. She has been in Karate since she was 5. They teach them to try talking your way out of it first... or trying to walk away, but if all else fails know how to defend yourself.

I tell my daughter the same thing my father told me growing up. You had better not start a fight, but you should be the one to finish it. In this Karate school they teach respect, service, good grades, etc. She knows if she becomes the bully she will lose her black belt, she has seen it happen. She does not have the bully mentality.

Having said that... she has had to use what she has learned at school, not so much on a bully but on a boy that was touching her inappropriately. She had told him to stop multiple times and when he did not she rapidly removed his hand from her body inflicting a bit of pain in the process. She also did as she had be taught and yelled "don't touch me there" which got the attention of a nearby teacher. When the teacher arrived on scene my daughter was in her guard stance and the boy was bent over holding his arm in pain.

Most, if not all schools have a no tolerance policy, and in this case I was glad it did not apply as my daughter did not get in any trouble.....I would have been furious if she had. As far as defending yourself in a fist fight, I understand that my daughter may get suspended, but she defended herself and perhaps others and hopefully showed the bully that they aren't as big and bad as they think they are.

I almost got in a few fights in schools with some a bully or two, but after I stood up to them I never had a problem with them again.

A lot of times they want the scared don't hit me reaction. If they don't get that reaction (either by walking away or by standing up to them) they no longer want to play that game with you.



Sorry for the long first post...

Jon (JB)

 

[kara]

I will tell my son the same thing my father told me when I was being picked on. You tell the person to stop and you don't like that, then tell the teacher. If the teacher doesn't resolve the situation, and they hit you again, then you have every right to defend yourself. If you get in trouble, daddy will come up personally and handle the situation with the administration.

I would fully support that. That was always the case in my house, too, though not expressed in so many words. Luckily, I never really got picked on.