Design your baby!...

16th ave.

PF Addict
Jan 4, 2009
3,338
1
0
49
East Texas
read that sorta stuff was coming.
my answer: no. its just plain wrong the same as cloning is wrong. and shouldn't happen. its going to far....
 

zeitgeist

PF Fiend
Oct 8, 2008
1,464
0
0
I don't see anything wrong with it, to be honest. While I'd always choose to leave the gender and appearance to chance, I can only think of the ability to pick and choose genetic features as a positive thing.

What if there's a history of heart disease in your family? Breast Cancer? Parkinsons? Debilitating arthritis? Debilitating allergies? You wouldn't jump at the chance to make sure your children aren't afflicted with these things?

This is just a really superficial application of the kind of knowledge that will eventually assist to weed out that kind of disease. And if some of that knowledge and experience is paid for by some rich couples who can afford to pay a mint to have a baby that's guaranteed to have brown hair instead of red, I don't see the problem if the baby that results is loved.
 

zeitgeist

PF Fiend
Oct 8, 2008
1,464
0
0
Can't say I'm surprised. I am a little disappointed - he recanted pretty quickly, making me think that it was little more than a publicity stunt.

At the moment, he can't accommodate parents who want a certain eye and hair color for cosmetic reasons, he said. He'll focus instead on families with histories of albinism, color blindness and several other genetic disorders.
Also can't say I'm surprised. It's typically harder to find fault in making sure that a baby is born not color blind than it is with making sure that the not-color blind baby also has blue eyes. Not that I find fault with either...

I'm curious to know a couple of things. If you objected to the idea of cherry-picking eye color or hair color - or would have objected, given the time to discover this thread before he changed his mind:
- What is it <I>exactly</I> that you find objectionable?
- Do you also object to the use of genetic manipulation he's proposing now, the exclusion of hereditary disease?
- If you objected to changing the physical features but not the hereditary diseases, why is one manipulation OK but not the other, and where do you draw the line between the two?
 

fallon

Super Moderator
Jul 19, 2007
10,868
1
0
42
Michigan
I personally would always leave my child's looks to chance, that's half the fun...BUT if there was a way I could make sure my child would never suffer from a disease like cancer, I'd be all for it. I try not to judge a parent who would cheery pick embryos for hair and eye color but really it just seems very superficial to me. I can't see any good reason why I should want my child to have blue eyes rather than brown (sounds kinda like what the nazis tried to do)
 

Dadu2004

PF Visionary
May 16, 2008
7,272
0
0
45
Cleveland, OH
For me, it's a bit of a touchy issue that I'm not sure how I feel completely about it...

I guess when we cross the line in messing with God's creation, it's dangerous territory. But I can also justify using the technology to prevent diseases and abnormalities. I suppose I would support using it to prevent Cerebal Palsey, Mental Retardation and such, but wouldn't support it for changing a kids hair color. As Fallon said, that's pushing what the Nazi's used to do.
 

fallon

Super Moderator
Jul 19, 2007
10,868
1
0
42
Michigan
It's such a fine line though, I guess I just don't fully understand the motives of parents who would pick eye and hair color for their child.
 

Dadu2004

PF Visionary
May 16, 2008
7,272
0
0
45
Cleveland, OH
fallon said:
It's such a fine line though, I guess I just don't fully understand the motives of parents who would pick eye and hair color for their child.
Yeah, it kind of takes the fun out of seeing what a child truly looks like when you combine you and your partner.
 

zeitgeist

PF Fiend
Oct 8, 2008
1,464
0
0
Just because the Nazis did something didn't make that action necessarily evil for all time. The Nazis also ate sauerkraut with sausages, drank beer, had parties and tended to go to bed when they got tired. They put gasoline in the vehicles they drove. They got haircuts. Should those activities be banned for all time as well?

Everything I just listed above is pretty non-offensive. Who argues with the goal of having lunch? Is there something wrong with the goal of making your car go?

If my method of making my car go was to kill babies to render their baby fat into fuel, chances are you'd take issue with it. And with good reason; I'd be a monster and you'd be fairly monstrous if you thought my methods were anything but repellent and evil.

Would my horrible atrocity for the furthering of my goal render driving cars evil for all time?


There was NOTHING good about the way the Nazis went about trying to 'improve' humanity. They trampled people's reproductive freedom, they trampled peoples lives into the dirt. They raped, they tortured, they killed. They were monsters.

I just don't see how anyone can relate giving a loving couple the choice to change the genetic code (or simply the choice to pick which embryo to implant) of their longed-for baby who will be loved and cherished upon birth with sterilizing 400,000 people against their will and repeatedly raping the blond haired women in forced labor camps to try to produce blond offspring which will be taken away it is born.

The idea that there's any similarity between the practices is somewhat staggering. One is a state-run, militarily enforced blight on the history of humanity that changed or ended the lives of millions of people with goals changing humanity on a tremendous scale, the other is the carefully considered choice of a couple of people who want a baby to love who isn't colorblind and might look nice with red hair.

The goals aren't even remotely similar. The methods are so dissimilar that it's hard to believe we're even discussing it this way.


So far everyone in this thread has been pretty much okay with the idea of using genetic tinkering to weed out hereditary illnesses but not with the idea of cherry-picking purely visual traits and the vast majority seem to be saying that their reasoning is that it's what the Nazis did.

But the Nazis had other things in mind than just liking blondes:

Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Nazis were also targeting hereditary illnesses. That's where that 400,000 forced sterilizations number comes from. Did it reduce the instances of hereditary illness in future generations of Germans? With a scope that large, it could hardly have failed to. Never mind that it shattered lives.

But no one should feel as though they were tricked into saying that they thought that something the Nazis did would be okay with them. We're not talking about sterilizing a population, we're talking about tripping a few genes, about selecting a single embryo for implantation in a mother who wants her baby free from some genetic disease that she might otherwise have passed on.


I seem to be writing a novel here. I don't really feel like looking for a publisher, so I'll sum up now:

What this doctor proposed to provide for his patients is utterly unlike anything the Nazis did. When you stop to think and actually compare the scale of what the Nazis tried to do and the atrocities they committed along the way with a single family's decision to lovingly consider their own child's future, it's hard to imagine that any realistic comparison could still remain in anyone's mind.
 

Dadu2004

PF Visionary
May 16, 2008
7,272
0
0
45
Cleveland, OH
zeitgeist said:
I just don't see how anyone can relate giving a loving couple the choice to change the genetic code (or simply the choice to pick which embryo to implant) of their longed-for baby
IMO, changing the genetic code no longer makes it their baby. It makes it nothing more than a facade of what should've been. They might as well have had a test tube kid.
 

zeitgeist

PF Fiend
Oct 8, 2008
1,464
0
0
Dadu2004 said:
IMO, changing the genetic code no longer makes it their baby. It makes it nothing more than a facade of what should've been. They might as well have had a test tube kid.
It IS a "test tube kid." (That's just a derogatory term for in-vitro fertilization that became popular when it was first done.)

There's no way to change the genetic code of a fertilized ovum that's actually inside the mother. All of this would by necessity HAVE to be done outside the womb before being implanted in the mother.



Are you opposed to making changes for the purpose of removing hereditary diseases? I don't see where you've said one way or the other.
 

Dadu2004

PF Visionary
May 16, 2008
7,272
0
0
45
Cleveland, OH
I find that to be a different situation (changing for hereditary disease). You're not making physical appearance changes that are unnecessary for the child to live a healthy and normal life.
 

zeitgeist

PF Fiend
Oct 8, 2008
1,464
0
0
You just said that changing the genetic code makes it 'no longer their baby.' I suppose I don't understand how - using your criteria - it still their baby if they remove genetic predisposition to Parkinsons Disease but not their baby if the hair is brown instead of blond.
 

Dadu2004

PF Visionary
May 16, 2008
7,272
0
0
45
Cleveland, OH
My point is using such technology to remove a horrible disease is different than using it to determine their physical appearance. There's a separation there.
 

zeitgeist

PF Fiend
Oct 8, 2008
1,464
0
0
But if both make a modification to the genetic code, how do you decide which one allows the baby to still be the parents' offspring?
 

Dadu2004

PF Visionary
May 16, 2008
7,272
0
0
45
Cleveland, OH
Zeit, I'm not sure how to make this any simpler. I've stated my opinion a few times now.

There's a major difference between removing a horrible disease and altering someone's appearance for personal satisfaction. When you remove Cerabal Palsey from a child, you're not changing their physical appearance because you want your kid to have big ears versus small ears. When you start ordering blue eyes like you order cheese on a quarter pounder, that's where I draw the line.
 

zeitgeist

PF Fiend
Oct 8, 2008
1,464
0
0
Dadu2004 said:
Zeit, I'm not sure how to make this any simpler.
There's no need to get nasty. This is a friendly discussion... isn't it?

I've stated my opinion a few times now.

There's a major difference between removing a horrible disease and altering someone's appearance for personal satisfaction. When you remove Cerabal Palsey from a child, you're not changing their physical appearance because you want your kid to have big ears versus small ears. When you start ordering blue eyes like you order cheese on a quarter pounder, that's where I draw the line.
Yes, you have said that a few times, and I fully support your choice to draw the line there for yourself. As it happens (and as I've said), I would want to let nature take its course for external features too. I don't have a problem with it if another couple chooses to make changes.

But the reason we're going in circles isn't whether other couples should be permitted to make this kind of decision for themselves (the way I fully expected this debate to go), it's a single point: you have yet to explain why one genetic change means the child produced has no parents, one does.
Dadu2004 said:
IMO, changing the genetic code no longer makes it their baby.
Dadu2004 said:
I find that to be a different situation (changing for hereditary disease).

To use your analogy, if I order a quarter pounder my way, with cheese or without, it's still my quarter pounder.

I guess where I'm going with this is "why is this child to have his parentage denied because he's got brown eyes instead of blue?"
 

fallon

Super Moderator
Jul 19, 2007
10,868
1
0
42
Michigan
are they actually talking about changing the genetic code or are they just pulling certain embryos from a batch that have the qualities the parents are looking for?