Discipline!...

[singledad]

So this topic has probably already been covered, but since this site has a policy of not resurecting old threads, here goes.

My DD is not a naughty child, but she IS three years old, and like any three year old she is continuously pushing to see what she can get away with. It has now reached a point where she will do something that she knows very well she's not allowed to, and then actually look at me to see what I am going to do about it. "There, I'm playing with the buttons on the CD player/pulling all the tupperware out of the cupboard/throwing my food on the floor instead of eating. Whatcha gonna do about it?" Kind of attitude. Talking to her used to work, but it isn't really working anymore. I would tell her no, stop that, and when I turn my back, she carries on. I think she's realised that daddy may have a deep voice, but he really isn't all that scary. Which is cool, I don't want my daughter to be scared of me, but I do want her to listen to me! :arghh:

Things I will not do:
Spanking, or any other method of inflicting physical pain.
Time-out.

How do I get her to listen to me, and to actually react to what I say? Any suggestions/advice would help. I don't want to leave this until I loose my temper with her! :veryconfused:

 

[AmyBelle]

Is there any reason that youre opposed to time outs? That will probably be the punishment she will recieving in school for that kind of behaviour so.

I do time outs, Bek isnt allowed out of time out until she can tell me exactly what she did that was wrong and why it is wrong and what a possible consequence of doing the wrong activity would be. The point of it, for me, is to make her think. For example,
"Why did mummy put you on time out?"
"For hitting my sister which is wrong because you should not hit people and if I hit her I may hurt her"

If she honestly cannot think up a reason for what was wrong, why and a concequence then we have a very long chat that she hates.

I will also take posessions off her if she is repeatedly naughty.

 

[singledad]

Why am I opposed to time-out? It just feels wrong to me. Like I'm abandoning her, or something. We tried it once, a few months ago (Put her in her room). And she cried as if her heart was breaking. Never again.

Besides, she's been through enough this year. The last thing she needs right now is for daddy to turn his back on her, even for a short while. When you're 3 years old, a few minutes can feel like eternity.

Maybe I will put her in time out when she is older, and better able to understand what I am doing.

I've thought about taking away her toys, but it seems so random to take away a toy because she did something else that has nothing whatsover to do with that toy...

 

[mom2many]

At 3 time-outs are really your best option (I know not what you want to hear), she should be able to understand why you have placed her there, I wouldn't however use her room. Pick a place in your house that you are visable but somewhat less located. Explain why she is there, set a timer for 3 minutes, and then once the time is up re-explain why she was there and then give her a hug and a kiss. As she get's older you can send her to her room but at her age you don't want to foster bad feelings about her room.

Next bit of advice...decided what area's are absolute no-no's, tupperware on the floor..not going to hurt anything, but the tv is breakable so that would be a big no-no...see what I am saying.

To many "no's" can work against you.

 

[IADad]

Well sure she's going to cry in time out, that's her way of coping with something she doesn't want to do. If you try it a few times I think you'llbe amased at how adept she's become at putting on the crying (ie how fast she can forget and stop crying.) it's her most effective weapon, it gets you to jump to her aid, it gets you to stop a punishment.

We have a rather defiant now alomst 3 yo. We will put him in timeout even in the same room. I send him to a corner and he puts his nose in the corner. If he doesn't keep it there, I will help him move his head so his nose faces the corner. And I explain that when he's stopped crying and ready to talk about what he's done, he can come out, but not until then. I won't negotiate on his terms.

I know it's hard to do something and hear your kid cry. But think how hard it might be to deal with the consequences if she doesn't learn that sometimes she just needs to respect dad's authority. Dad doesn't make rules and enforce them to be mean, it's to protect, her, keep her safe, and teach her right from wrong. Simple.

 

[Xero]

I am a big advocate of time out as well. I know you don't want to, but its really your best option if you want her to have any type of real discipline. Chances are her nanny and the teachers at school use time out when you're not around anyway. Its completely harmless.

Mind you, putting a child in her room and shutting the door is NOT time out. That is too confusing for a child that young. With that, she doesn't really know how long she will be there, it may feel like "abandonment", and its much more drastic than time out.

Here is how I do time out:

Eli hits the cat. From afar, I say "Eli, be nice to the kitty, don't hit him". He does it again, I usually repeat myself once, but in a stronger voice. If he does it again, I will walk over to him, grab his hand and remove him from the cat, and look him dead in the face and say "Eli. Do NOT be mean to the kitty. That's enough!" And usually that is enough for him (he's such a good boy). But say he goes back and continues the behavior. I will say "Okay, you're going to sit in time out."

We have a time out chair. It is ALWAYS the same chair, the same place, but at the same time in the same room I am in where I can see him and he can see me. He knows where time out is. I will set him in the chair and set his timer for 2 minutes. They say, you use however many minutes to how many years old the child is. So yours would be 3. BUT even if his 2 minutes is up, if he is still crying and throwing a fit because he is mad, he is not allowed up. I remind him repeatedly throughout the time "Stop crying Eli or you will have to stay there. Stop crying, stop crying" and I say it gently in hopes of calming him down. When his time is up he is usually quiet, but if he's still throwing a fit he'll say "Get up? Get up?" And I'll say "Stop crying and you can get up." And he usually figures it out before he's there for too long. Its really a harmless situation. And when I let him up I would say "Be nice to the kitty now, okay?"

You have to have some sort of punishment. Time out isn't a big deal if you do it right. And its very widely used. If you don't use anything, you wont have much success in disciplining her. That's just my personal opinion, you of course know best as her parent. Good luck either way.

 

[Mom2all]

I agree that a 3 minutes timeout in the same room is the best... it's not too long... your there with her.... and it's not supposed to be fun, or it wouldn't be discipline. But.. if you are completly against it.. use what I use for the older kids... it works too on little ones. If she throws something on the floor... she has to pick it up. Whatever she detroys, help her fix. And then... I would redirect her... say for instance... "Darling.. when you stop throwing the tuperware in the floor, and we get that all picked up, maybe we can color or (insert some other fun thing here). Good attention or bad attention.. kids will go for both... help her see good is better! But.. Most important is getting down to her eye level... look her in the face and make sure she's looking at you when you tell her this. She needs to understand you mean business. AND NO playing the fun stuff until she gets her mess up. And I do agree.. she has been through alot this year.. tread softly. ALL punishment should be done with love. And I'd be careful with her.

PS. My teenagers don't really throw stuff on the floor...

 

[bssage]

I can sympathize. I have a difficult time disciplining my daughter.

But its not about what feels good. Its about what is best for her. Behavior problems can have wide ranging implications. From performance at school. To the type of relationships she has socially. I am not trying to persuade you to adopt my methods only to keep an open mind and remember this is something your doing for her, not you.

Thing about discipline and the method's you will use. Is that its a moving target. What may work today may not tomorrow. More than one method can be equally effective. I don't want to start the whole 'to spank or not" debate. So I wont. But I will say regardless of what you choose to do. You must choose something. Its that important.

 

[Mom2all]

Bssage.. I agree that it's hard. When you love something so much, it's hard to hurt them, even their feelings when they need it! I try to remember something my Dad told me years ago when it gets hard. It's not my job to keep a happy child 24/7. It's my job to raise a man or woman that one day I'll be proud to know. Makes it a little easier looking at the future instead of just today~

 

[singledad]

I know I have to discipline her. She needs to learn about right and wrong, and much more importantly, its about safety. That is why I started this thread - I was hoping you would have other suggestions.

But ok. It sounds like the way we understood "time out" was all wrong. No wonder it felt so cruel. Making her sit in a chair where she can see me is a lot less drastic. She'll probably still cry, but I'll just have to brave that out. I think even having to face the corner may be a bit much - she won't be able to see me, and that still upsets her sometimes.

I still think I'll try mom2all's suggestion first, and keep time out (in a chair) as a last resort. Hopefully it won't go that far.

PS: Yes, this was not meant to be a "spank or not" debate. Thankyou for not going there.

 

[Mom2all]

Stephanie is going through alot, just like you. And for a 3 year old, I think her acting out is normal for this un-normal situation. Be patient, know its not anything your doing, and that she'll be okay in time. I'm like you.. maybe the positive reinforcement is better for rite now. Time outs only for extreme things. Her crying or even throwing things might just be her way of dealing with anger and loss and not know anyother way to express it. Giving her something else to do.. I think might work better. She is beautiful. I keep you both in my thoughts.

 

[IADad]

the other thing I wanted to add about time out in the same room vs. say, in a bedroom, is I really try to avoid making the bedroom this evil place you have to go to...

 

[Xero]

Exactly. I have never used bed as a punishment, and I never have any trouble getting Eli in his bed to go to sleep at night. My Aunt uses "going to bed" as a punishment, so sometimes I've seen her kids get confused at actual bedtime and cry thinking they were in trouble just going to bed at night. Plus it encourages fit throwing over having to go to bed in general, since they associate it with punishment. That's my outlook on it anyway haha.

I do agree with Mom2all, that timeout can be left for extreme things at least for now. Honestly, I'm pretty much the same way. I'll do as much as I can with Eli otherwise before I'll put him in timeout. He maybe goes in timeout once a week, and that's the honest truth. He is very well behaved, but I'm also a softie haha.

 

[singledad]

And for a 3 year old, I think her acting out is normal for this un-normal situation. ....
Her crying or even throwing things might just be her way of dealing with anger and loss and not know anyother way to express it.

You are soooo right. Why couldn't I see this? Poor, poor baby. Ofcourse, she is my daughter. I bet the real truth is that she just wants more attention. Its all falling into place now - she is doing these things to get my attention, because she is scared and confused and... That makes me want to punish her even less. Its so unfair that an innocent little girl should have to deal with what she has to deal with in the first place, expecting her to be good at it is downright cruel. It will definitely be positive re-enforcement all the way for the immediate future.

the other thing I wanted to add about time out in the same room vs. say, in a bedroom, is I really try to avoid making the bedroom this evil place you have to go to...

Point taken, and noted. Damn, I'm so glad I joined this forum...

 

[Mom2all]

I'm glad I joined too~

 

[BenDavis503]

I didn't read a ton of the other posters ideas. I generally like to read the first post and make my own response, then read the others so my idea is not influenced.

What I do, communicate, communicate, communicate!!! Although your child is only 3, they listen! They know what you are saying! It is hard sometimes for them to deal with it, but they know!!! You just need to talk to her. Explain stuff like "honey, Dad does not like it when you press the buttons on the electronics, because you could break the machine and daddy worked hard to buy it and he values it..." something like that.

I find that when I tell my son 1. what not to do, then 2. explain why I do not want him to do it and 3. give a reason to justify the why.

1. Please don't press the buttons on the CD player.
2. Daddy does not like that.
3. BECAUSE he likes the CD player and worked hard to buy it and this CD player gives us the joy of music!

You can even go on to explain\compare it to a toy that she likes. You teach a lesson in value, you teach good communication skills and you teach a house lesson, do not mess with electronics. And no hitting!

Communication is key to success in ANY relationship! Even father\daughter, even at this young age. IMHO

Oh yeah, and I wanted to say it sounds like perfectly normal behavior for a 3 year old! My son is almost 2 and he ALWAYS tests me!!! We put up the xmas tree a few nights ago and he LOVES to grab the ornaments. He knows he is not supposed to, but he will grab at one, look at me and I will give him a look like "DONT!!!" but this is just kids testing their limits.

You can find silver lining in this by you should feel good that your kid is growing and learning about limits and rules. Praise them when they "test" you and then don't do what they are not supposed to do.

Like, I praised my son when he gave me that look like "I can take this down if I want... but I am not going to." I told him "thank you for not taking that down!"

And yeah, I love this site too. Helps a single father out so much.

 

[singledad]

Thanks for that, Ben. Sounds like good advice. I've been trying to implement mom2all's suggesting, but progress is very slow. Maybe if I explained the rules better, it would help...

You can find silver lining in this by you should feel good that your kid is growing and learning about limits and rules. Praise them when they "test" you and then don't do what they are not supposed to do.

Never thought about it that way. I'll remember this.

 

[seeeker]

Xero: "Timeouts... they're using out when you're not around anyway. Its completely harmless."

How do you know they're competely harmless? Are you child psychologist who has scientifically traced child devlopment for 25 years?

Timeouts are some new phenomenon I had never even heard of until ten years ago, and in my childhood in the 70's and 80's. Personally I believe sticking your 3 yr olds nose in the corner and ignoring them and making them consider consequences and come up with reasons not to do something is an exagerrated form of adult projection on an immature mind. Not to mention cruel and cold.

singledad OP: I totally relate exactly to the situation you describe and your beliefs (no spanking, no timeouts). I have an almost 4 yr old who sometimes wants daddy to do everything little thing for him, like (for example, tonight) we were going up to bed and I had an armload full of magazines and CDs, and his pillow. I asked him to carry his water bottle up, and he simply would not do it. He wanted me to carry it up with everything else. I sat down with him and tried to ask him simply shy I should carry everything, we need to share the work and he can carry his own water bottle. He was (very cutely) holding back tears and just wouldn't budge. He then actually said if it's too much stuff, I should make several trips, and carry things one at a time! My own mother came kept butting in saying I was torturing him (by sitting down and talking with him - they're senile anyway).

Granted I am not a hardass, but I was also not budging. I don't have the solution for how to teach when discipline. Another school of thought says let the little stuff go. What constitiutes "little?" My own parents (here right now) constantly give in, even his mommy my ex, they say just let it go. Well I say no not really, if you let everything go, when do you teach them they aren't the boss, can't have eveything all the time, etc?

I just think there is a better way to teach with love and support rather than ignoring your child. There is always some new style in vogue, I think timeouts are the product of some uptight new America that also puts on handcuffs on 6 yr olds and frogmarches them for play kissing and teasing. I once saw my neighbor use a timeout and their child screamed like a monkey for 2 hours. Now that's torture.

Love, support, teach with firmness. But always communicate openly.

 

[ElliottCarasDad]

Xero: "Timeouts... they're using out when you're not around anyway. Its completely harmless."

How do you know they're competely harmless? Are you child psychologist who has scientifically traced child devlopment for 25 years?

uh-oh

*grabs popcorn*

 

[16th ave.]

uh-oh

*grabs popcorn*

:goofy:lol lol lol

Timeouts are some new phenomenon

um, not to argue or be snarky. but No. they are Not a new phenomenon. they just never had a technical name before and waaaaay back when people didn't much discuss punishments. people have used all kinds of punishments to discipline and "time-out"s were one of them. someone finally gave that particular punishment a name and add some "real" instructions on how to use do it.
thank you. have a nice day.