Drinking age and the local perspective....

[IADad]

I live in a college town (in fact, it was just named biggest party school in America - a title I'm not sure it deserves more than most any public University, but "Go Hawks.")

So, as in most college towns there is a lucrative bar business downtown. The drinking age is 21 here. Current city ordinance allows 19 and 20 year olds to be in a bar up until 10 PM, but not after. So this law has teetered back and forth over the years, concerns about under-aged drinking, keeping the bar restaurant business thriving, the effects of driving out under age drinkers to house parties all circle around. Well a voter initiative is on the ballot this fall, to remove the 10PM restriction.

None of the horrible things have come to pass as predicted when they kicked the kids out and I don't think it's had much effect on decreasing under aged drinking or other alcohol related arrests.

So, what are your thoughts? What happens in your areas?

Personally, I think all "adult rights/responsibilities" should be level. If you can enter a contract, sign up to serve in the military at 18, then you should be able to drink (and suffer the consequences if you break the law. Adult should mean adult.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

That's one thing about USA that really makes no sense (to me). And obviously this law doesn't work

 

[cybele]

18 is the "you can do everything" age here, drinking included.

I can't see how it doesn't work, every now and then someone pops up with concerns about how the driving age and drinking age are the same but P platers have very strict conditions on their licences for the first three years (so until they are 21 if they get their license at 18, but it's 3 years from whatever age you get it) and one of them is a zero BA limit.

Melbourne does have some alcohol-violence issues and the "America does it at 21" "But most of Europe does it at 16" arguments pop up. To be honest though whenever the news reports on someone being glassed in the city the perpetrator is most of the time late 20's for some reason, so it's a pointless argument. For that matter I live in a tourist area about an hour out of Melbourne CBD and the vast majority of our alcohol-fuelled violence is middle aged people outside the German buffet.

 

[akmom]

I agree that rights and responsibilities should go together, but I also think that having some "practice" with the responsibilities before getting the rights is okay. An 18-year-old is technically responsible for themselves, but how much do you think that is going to sink in after one minute? Probably no more than it did the day before you turned 18. I think three years is enough practice with responsibilities that you can make your own decisions about rights.

Not everyone is going to make good decisions, and not everyone is bound to make bad decisions. But for that group whose maturity level makes the difference between good and bad decisions, I do think that deferring a decision like alcohol consumption is a positive thing.

I've never heard of a place that let people under 21 into bars. Do they actually get to drink in there, or just hang out? My university had a bar on campus, and they carded you at the door: no admittance under 21.

 

[cybele]

A few places here let over 16's in if they're with a parent, they can be kicked out if they're caught drinking though.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

Here every joint has its own policy. Usually nobody checks on the doors, but some places have rules like "nobody under 25", etc.

As for drinking age, some countries allow drinking earlier than driving, because the logic is that young people can get behind the wheel only when they know how to handle their booze.

Btw, in Holland there are some driving schools which teach driving under extreme conditions, including under influence.

 

[cybele]

That would be interesting.

 

[IADad]

As for drinking age, some countries allow drinking earlier than driving, because the logic is that young people can get behind the wheel only when they know how to handle their booze.

ha, and here it's the other way around. pretty much all states allow driving at 16 but drinking age is uniformly 21. There drivers as young as 14 on learner's permits and 15 (able to drive without supervision) for a school permit (limited to to and from school.)

So, that's part of my argument, how can you logically say a person has enough judgement to hurtle a weapon down the road, but go forbid they touch a beer.

It really has more to do with tradition and ease of change (it's easier to demonize irresponsible drinking than irresponsible driving.) there's also the fact that lots of parents love to have kids drive, so they don't have to transport them any more, so convenience wins in that argument.

 

[singledad]

18 is the "you can do everything" age here, drinking included.

Same here. The two things I have never understood about America is why you have to wait until 21 to drink, and how they can allow 15-16 year olds to drive. LOL. I guess there are many arguments, but I don't really believe that the difference between 18 and 21 is what is going to determine whether you become a problem drinker or not.

We also have the debates Cybele mentioned, but I seriously don't think that change the drinking age is going to make much difference. I believe that there is certainly a argument that can be made FOR allowing kids to drink while they are still living under their parent's roof, as most often the case here, with kids turning 18 somewhere during their final year of school...

I also don't think that something like kicking kids who aren't allowed to drink anyway out of bars will mean the end of the world. We've had the same choirs here, when tightened up the smoking laws, when they banned under-18's from smoking areas in restaurants, when they lowered the alcohol limit, etc, etc - every time they do something like that, people predict that restaurants and bars will go out of business in droves. And they never do. Somehow, somewhere, there are always people who don't smoke, and who either don't drink, or have a designated driver in the group. And the restaurants keep cashing in.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

I think letting kids to drive early in USA has to do with distances. Never been there, but my DH has -- said thats the biggest contrast, as in Europe cities people are used to much everything within walking distance or decent public transportation, so absolutely no need for kids to have cars to go to school.

 

[akmom]

So, that's part of my argument, how can you logically say a person has enough judgement to hurtle a weapon down the road, but go forbid they touch a beer.

Are you talking about the military? They receive training and have supervision for these tasks. How does that even compare to drinking?

It really has more to do with tradition and ease of change (it's easier to demonize irresponsible drinking than irresponsible driving.)

Of course. Drinking is completely unnecessary. So the consequences of banning it are pretty much nothing. But try to participate in a society that depends on long-distance mobility, and bans/restrictions become crippling.

I believe that there is certainly a argument that can be made FOR allowing kids to drink while they are still living under their parent's roof, as most often the case here, with kids turning 18 somewhere during their final year of school...

Parents can give their kids alcohol. Technically you can give it to your five-year-old if you wanted to. If you're giving alcohol to an infant or letting a young child get drunk, then you're going bump up against child endangerment laws, but just allowing your children to drink before age 21 is perfectly legal in most states. But they do have to be under your supervision, and at least here, a parent is technically supposed to pour it (to ensure that the supervising parent is actually aware of the consumption, I assume).

 

[cybele]

I think he meant driving, not the military. Technically, a car is a pretty heavy-duty weapon.

 

[cybele]

I think letting kids to drive early in USA has to do with distances. Never been there, but my DH has -- said thats the biggest contrast, as in Europe cities people are used to much everything within walking distance or decent public transportation, so absolutely no need for kids to have cars to go to school.

That's interesting. I have to admit, we live in the middle of nowhere, but you can get everywhere by bus. It's not always the most direct route (poor Lux will have to get a bus from our place all the way down to the bottom of the mountain, then a train to the end of the line, then another bus back up to 20 minutes away from where we live to get to her high school next year) but it's certainly do-able and long travel on public transport is considered very normal here.

 

[singledad]

Parents can give their kids alcohol. Technically you can give it to your five-year-old if you wanted to. If you're giving alcohol to an infant or letting a young child get drunk, then you're going bump up against child endangerment laws, but just allowing your children to drink before age 21 is perfectly legal in most states. But they do have to be under your supervision, and at least here, a parent is technically supposed to pour it (to ensure that the supervising parent is actually aware of the consumption, I assume).

I was under the impression that it was illegal for them to drink - period. And that serving alcohol to someone under 21 (even if its your kid) was illegal If you're telling me I misunderstood, then I'm happy. I've always believed that a parent should teach a child about the responsible use of alcohol, and that the lesson cannot really be taught properly without letting the kid feel for himself what alcohol does him.

 

[Xero]

Yeah SD, it is legal for underage kids to drink in most states as long as they are under the supervision of a parent or their spouse of drinking age. Here is a link, you can choose any state (drop box top left) and it will tell you the law on this topic there (the link is set on Alaska, since akmom brought it up). I am from Pennsylvania but I didn't put my state in the search bar for these purposes because my state is one of the VERY few states that allows NO EXCEPTIONS for underage drinking, doesn't matter who you are with, 21 and up period the end.

http://alcoholpolicy.niaaa.nih.gov/APIS_State_Profile.html?state=AK[/URL]

 

[cybele]

For some reason I read that link as "alcohol party" and that struck me as very funny.

 

[Xero]

Well, what's a party without alcohol? lol That is random, I do see how that could happen. xD

 

[IADad]

I think he meant driving, not the military. Technically, a car is a pretty heavy-duty weapon.

exactly, although putting a multi-million dollar warplane or ship into the hands of a young person is a decent case too. And I'm not advocating for lowering, I think they should all be raised, we just don't have the patience to suffer through the inconvenience of shuttling our "kids" until they are 21.

 

[cybele]

Now that I think about it, I didn't get my license until I was 22. I had to wait for my husband to get off his probationary license (as he is younger than me) so he could teach me.

Man, I was annoying.

 

[IADad]

I think letting kids to drive early in USA has to do with distances. Never been there, but my DH has -- said thats the biggest contrast, as in Europe cities people are used to much everything within walking distance or decent public transportation, so absolutely no need for kids to have cars to go to school.

yeah, that's true, but it's become the paradigm and has more to do with convenience in most places. The funny thing is we don't hesitate to ban the silliest stuff in the name of safety, but bring up questions of safety in youth driving and people are ready to make 1000 excuses.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty much looking forward to the day I don't have to shuttle my kids everywhere, but I'll be swallowing hard and praying a lot until they get some good experience.