Ethical Dilemma.. what would YOU have done?...

[grieving]

I'm curious to see how others would have handled this situation I found myself in..

I'm an Aunt to a 2 yr. old boy (just turned 2 in June). I was watching him recently as his mom had stomach pains and went to Emergency. She was in there from 8 am till about 3 pm.

While I took his mom to the hospital, my daughter stayed at their home for when he awoke. When he did, she brought him to our house so I could help her. All was fine throughout the day, then my daughter had to leave in the afternoon, so it was just the little guy and myself.

Late in the afternoon, he needed a diaper change and I went to find the wipes and diaper in his backpack that his mom always packs for him for their outings. He has his toys, snacks and everything else he needs.

When I looked in the pack, there were more than a handful of bright red and blue pills laying in the bag. The weren't even in a bottle or anything. I couldn't believe it. I tasted one when I didn't see any marking on it just to see if they were candy. Nope.

I texted his mom to ask what they were for and she called me back a minute later, saying 'omg.. I forgot!' She told me they were Tylenol.

Well, I couldn't stop myself, I was so angry and told her I couldn't even talk to her because it was such a stupid thing to forget and that thank God nothing happened to him. I told her that I was going to tell my brother (the dad) as soon as he came to pick him up. Shortly after, he did and he was upset too.

Now, there is some history here. There were other incidents that have caused me concern with my nephew. When he was just crawling around, they needed a place to stay, so we put them up in our basement.

I would go downstairs to find coins, and little pieces of garbage lying on the floor. I would tell her that she should routinely check the area to ensure there was nothing he could swallow, but it never seemed to make a difference.

The playpen he slept in was dirty, with dried up bottles and crumbs, as was his exersaucer. I found a prescription pill on the bathroom floor after she showered, and a whole bottle of Coldfx was emptied on the floor as he played while she watched TV.

I even talked to my brother a couple of times about it and he would just say that he knew, and that he talked to her about the same issues too.

During one of our outings with them recently, we went up to the mountains to shoot targets and claypots. She set up her chair with the baby not 5 feet away from the shooters. I told her that I didn't think that was a good idea, as they were too close to the noise from the guns. She frowned in displeasure but moved her chair a tiny bit. I asked her why he wasn't wearing his ear muffs to protect his ears and she said that he didn't like them and would let her put them on him. I couldn't believe it and told her that she was the parent. When she didn't respond, I took him away from there to play near this little creek away from the noise.

After the incident with the pills, they got angry and wouldn't talk to me. My brother said that he understood why I had reacted to finding the pills, but that he had to stick by her.

A few people I had talked to about this advised me that I should contact the child protection workers, which I had thought about as well, but didn't.

I read a Facebook status update that she wrote, where she stated how proud she was of her baby because he had an encounter at the pool with a bully who tried to take his toy. She bragged that her son had started pounding this kid on the head and wouldn't stop until she made him. I mentioned this to my sister who they are staying with, as well as saying that there were people who thought the Child Protection services should be contacted about some of these incidents.

Anyhow, this got back to my brother, who then told me that he couldn't believe I wanted to report them and that this was it for us. I haven't heard from them since.

Hence, my nick name on here. I am grieving..

Oh, and another interesting thing is, is that I spoke to my other sister about this whole matter, and she told me that it was really none of my business to say anything about any of the incidents, even if it meant the baby might be harmed. I just can't get over how different we are.

For me, I felt I had to speak up for my nephew, he sure can't speak up for himself.

Sometimes I feel family is overrated.. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on this situation.. I only had my nephews best interest in mind, but now I don't get to see him..

 

[Gymnimmunse]

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[grieving]

uhhh.. alrrrighty then.. ? hehe!

 

[Squishy]

These are always difficult.

First, is there some overarching other issue? You know, maybe some 'secret' about her that could account for her frankly erratic and irrational behavior? What's the reason for all the prescriptions and the need for an ER visit?

You're saying here that you can't believe she's your sister, that would indicate that she's somehow different. Is that so? Is there maybe something going on for her that you might not know about that could be causing such frank lapses in judgment?

You're right to worry about your nephew, but the solution is to work with them and help them resolve whatever that other issue might be. So, you might need to regroup here, stop 'grieving', and take a different tack (as difficult as that might be) by approaching the behaviors you're seeing as a real problem, but maybe indicative of a much deeper problem you don't have the details of..

This might take some time, they're not likely to spill all at once, but if they feel you're on their side and not just attacking (they're not recognizing your anxiety and concern for your nephew) you have a better chance of getting to the bottom of this and working with them to resolve it. It sounds like they need all the help they can get, you just need to present yourself as a resource, not an adversary.

 

[grieving]

uhhh.. alrrrighty then.. ? hehe!

Don't want to confuse anyone, but the above post was in response to a post that has since been deleted.. but trust me, it was verrrry verrrry weird!

 

[grieving]

These are always difficult.

First, is there some overarching other issue? You know, maybe some 'secret' about her that could account for her frankly erratic and irrational behavior? What's the reason for all the prescriptions and the need for an ER visit?

You're saying here that you can't believe she's your sister, that would indicate that she's somehow different. Is that so? Is there maybe something going on for her that you might not know about that could be causing such frank lapses in judgment?

You're right to worry about your nephew, but the solution is to work with them and help them resolve whatever that other issue might be. So, you might need to regroup here, stop 'grieving', and take a different tack (as difficult as that might be) by approaching the behaviors you're seeing as a real problem, but maybe indicative of a much deeper problem you don't have the details of..

This might take some time, they're not likely to spill all at once, but if they feel you're on their side and not just attacking (they're not recognizing your anxiety and concern for your nephew) you have a better chance of getting to the bottom of this and working with them to resolve it. It sounds like they need all the help they can get, you just need to present yourself as a resource, not an adversary.

Interesting, Squishy, I have always suspected something 'off' about my sister in law. She seems kind of 'slow', she could never hold down a job. From what she told me, she grew up in a dysfunctional home. I'm no expert, but I believe it could be some developmental condition (her mother was an alcoholic), and just a lack of a good role model (her lack of parenting skills). The little guy is just over 2 and he doesn't speak any words except for mama and is not toilet trained.

To clarify, when I said that I couldn't believe she was my sister, I was referring to my older sister who told me that I should have not said anything about the way they are raising their son, even if it meant that he could be harmed. Just could not believe she would think that way, is all.

Unfortunately, it may be too late to resolve this, unless they can see that I only had the best interests of the their child in mind. I believe they see it as 'meddling'.

Oh, and grieving is a natural process when there is a loss. I know there are many others who have been suddenly denied from seeing their grandkids, nieces and nephews, etc., when relationships deteriorate.

 

[singledad]

Oh, and another interesting thing is, is that I spoke to my other sister about this whole matter, and she told me that it was really none of my business to say anything about any of the incidents, even if it meant the baby might be harmed. I just can't get over how different we are.

For me, I felt I had to speak up for my nephew, he sure can't speak up for himself.

Hell yes, of course you have to speak up for your nephew!

If you think he is in danger, call CPS. For sure. Every adult has as obligation to look out for all children, and help those who need it.

 

[Squishy]

Assuming your bro can listen to you, can you broach the subject of her 'issues'? What are the pills for? And what was the ER visit? I suspect some kind of prescription drug dependence or other problem which might interfere with her judgment, and he's defensively reacting to the result of that ( her impairment). The things you're rightly concerned about aren't that difficult to comprehend, like leaving meds around or basic hygiene issues.

When family members notice that someone is a little 'off', when there's some issue that interfere's with basic responsibility, people get weird, they don't know how to exactly address it, so your sister might recognize what you do (and maybe even suspect what you do as well), but is unsure what to do with that recognition. If you can work from that premise, that there's something really wrong here and speak just observationally (rather than accusatorily) you might have an opening. And it might help to involve as many other 'aware' adults as possible, there's strength in numbers.

I also agree that if you're seriously worried about a child's well being then you have a responsibility to call DCFS.

Lastly, grief is a part of loss, however intense emotion often affects judgment, and that's what you need here. Try to keep the emotion out of it (or at least under control) so that it doesn't interfere with what you need to say and do. They need to make these changes to protect your nephew, not make you feel better.

 

[grieving]

Well, I have talked to him about some of them in the past and he would agree and say that he has talked to her about it already.

Re: the meds, apparently she had some stomach issues, and was given meds for that, but she has been on antibiotics for other infections as well. She was given something to help her sleep at one time. I think the one I found on the floor was the one for her stomach.

I've always only had his best interest in mind.

Thank you both for your feedback!

 

[mom2many]

Tough spot but I am not sure stupidity is CPS worthy, the most that might happen is they will go out, take a look around, talk with them and if it all appears well they will leave.

I feel bad for the little guy cause his dad should be the one helping to protect him. From what I am reading she doesn't sound like a bad person, just not a whole lot of common sense. I can honestly say I don;t know what I would do, it really is a judgement call.

 

[parentastic]

It really is a delicate situation. On one hand, what you are doing here is <I>right</I>, your nephew has no one else to speak for him. One the flip side, alienating your brother means you are no longer able to influence him and his wife. It's difficult.

If it can help, from an ethical standpoint, I can tell you in Canada, everyone is obligated by law to report situations in which children might be in danger. If you do not, and later CPS finds out (for instance if your nephew ends up swallowing some of these pills and the hospital reports this), they have the right to hold you responsible.
I don't know if it's the same from where you come from.

So I am wondering if you have tried this: technically, you could tell your brother than you ARE actually sticking by him, since you THOUGHT about reporting the case to CPS but <I>did not</I>, which could put you in serious trouble. This might help him realize you are on his side. But you can then tell him that the only way you are willing to delay and not report this, since you are taking a risk here, is to make sure that concrete steps are taken to correct the problem.
Your legal responsibly might be a good strategy to open the door, to make him realize you have a right to know and be part of the solution.

I am also wondering if you have thought of asking CPS about this. You could call them and not disclose the names of your brother and his wife or your own name, and for now simply call to find out what your options are and if they think the child is in danger. At least it would give you some options.

Nicolas, Family Life Educator

 

[grieving]

Tough spot but I am not sure stupidity is CPS worthy, the most that might happen is they will go out, take a look around, talk with them and if it all appears well they will leave.

I feel bad for the little guy cause his dad should be the one helping to protect him. From what I am reading she doesn't sound like a bad person, just not a whole lot of common sense. I can honestly say I don;t know what I would do, it really is a judgement call.

Thanks mom2many.. Totally agree. I am at a loss in understanding my brother's stance on this either. He too is a first time parent (well, he has another one who is now 5 but had nothing to do with his upbringing, save for forced child support). I think that he has more awareness then she does, but it seems like this whole thing with the Child Protection just set him off.

 

[grieving]

It really is a delicate situation. On one hand, what you are doing here is <I>right</I>, your nephew has no one else to speak for him. One the flip side, alienating your brother means you are no longer able to influence him and his wife. It's difficult.

If it can help, from an ethical standpoint, I can tell you in Canada, everyone is obligated by law to report situations in which children might be in danger. If you do not, and later CPS finds out (for instance if your nephew ends up swallowing some of these pills and the hospital reports this), they have the right to hold you responsible.
I don't know if it's the same from where you come from.

So I am wondering if you have tried this: technically, you could tell your brother than you ARE actually sticking by him, since you THOUGHT about reporting the case to CPS but <I>did not</I>, which could put you in serious trouble. This might help him realize you are on his side. But you can then tell him that the only way you are willing to delay and not report this, since you are taking a risk here, is to make sure that concrete steps are taken to correct the problem.
Your legal responsibly might be a good strategy to open the door, to make him realize you have a right to know and be part of the solution.

I am also wondering if you have thought of asking CPS about this. You could call them and not disclose the names of your brother and his wife or your own name, and for now simply call to find out what your options are and if they think the child is in danger. At least it would give you some options.

Nicolas, Family Life Educator

Thanks Nicolas, I basically did do that. Here's the jist of the email I sent him.

<I>Rob (brother).. this might be too far out of hand now, but I just wanted to clarify..

I told Mary (our sister, who they are staying with) that there were others that thought that I should've contacted the Ministry mainly due to pills incident and the other incidents I told you about that happened here.

I never did because I know you guys care for him, as we all do. But, it wouldn't hurt for her to take a parenting course... you know I love the little guy, and everyone does. I only looked out for his best interest, that's all I did. I think you know how much I care for him. It'll be a shame for you to keep him from us, but that's up to you.

Also, as I said before, I don't even think I called her stupid, but as you know when you came over, I was upset about it and I did tell her I couldn't even talk to her because I was so mad at her and that it was such a stupid thing to do and it could have been a deadly one at that.

Julie (our other sister) told me that I shouldn't have said anything about the pills, even if something bad was to happen to him. I don't think that is a good idea, it's not like he could talk for himself.. he's only a tot. And you know I'm not wired that way.

Soo, that's it.. I guess I should just not say anything,.. but I can't help it, not when it's not right..

I will end by saying that I really hope things work out.. but whatever happens, know that you are still my brother and that we miss him..</I>[/I]

[/I]

As far as contacting the Ministry, I have a little experience in the field and I think that this is a case of stupidity and carelessness. But, I think I will take some of your advice and talk to someone about it. Thanks again..

 

[Squishy]

It's always interesting to me how people process the info/opinions they're given online and what they do with it. I have to ask, what is it that would be helpful for you here, what is it anyone can tell you that would be useful for you? What are you looking for?

Here's the e mail would have sent, FWIW:

"Hi Rob,

I wanted to take a moment to find out how "X" (his wife, who you didn't even mention in your e mail!) is....I was quite concerned to learn she needed emergency room treatment and wanted to be available to you and she....we're still family, and I love and am concerned for all of you!

Please give "X" my best, and let's come up with a time soon to meet, i'd like to reconnect with you...in a better way for all of us, I miss you guys!"

Love,

You"


What you sent will probably not get a written response, which is probably a good thing, because I think it misses the point: It sounds much more about you and your feelings, it comes across as thinly veiled judgmentalism, rather than an appreciation of the complexity of the situation and a respect for good boundaries.

Just a thought...

 

[Sayfia]

&lt;r&gt;&lt;FONT font="Arial"&gt;&lt;s&gt;&lt;/s&gt;CPS? Really? &lt;e&gt;&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;br/&gt;
&lt;FONT font="Arial"&gt;&lt;s&gt;&lt;/s&gt; My suggestion is to keep a close eye on the situation, start making notes and see if there is an ongoing pattern here. If there is, then you might have a case. But the mere fact that she was remised about leaving her pills in the diaper bag or that there are coins are left on the floor simply don’t make a case for child abuse or neglect. Do your research first before jumping the gun. And trust your brother, unless you feel he's being neglectful by not giving the situation the scrutiny it deserves, too? In that case, do what you feel STRONGLY is best for your nephew.&lt;e&gt;</SIZE>&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/SIZE&gt;&lt;e&gt;[/FONT]&lt;/e&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/r&gt;

 

[IADad]

I'm on the fence about CPS at this point, But I think there is a pattern of neglect here, you talked about the filth and lack of pretecting him from small objects, and pills on more than one occassion and this is just what you've witnessed. I think she's lying about the tylenol, there's only one tylenol that's colored like that and it'd be marked. http://www.drugs.com/imprints.php?action=search&amp;drugname=tylenol[/URL]

bure, regardless. Your brother needs to step up here and be the responsible one. He needs to take care of this or yes, I think it needs to be reported. I do see that perhaps she's just lazy forgetful etc, but she's truly not getting what it take to parent, and maybe she needs a jolt, hopefully that can come from your brother or another famiy member, but something needs to happen, soon.

 

[Jeremy+3]

About the pills, was each pill blue and red, or were there red pills and blue pills?

I only say as apart from liquid ibuprofen (a see through pill like nurofen) in the UK most antidepressants are red apart from prozac which is green and yellow, the only other red pills I know of are the ones you chew to highlight plaque on your teeth.

However the lack or markings is confusing as I have never seen a tablet without markings, its actually illegal in the UK for a tablet not to have the drug name or code printed on the tablet. The only medication here that does not need to be marked are herbal medicines, the ones stored in clear bottles tend to be brightly coloured to stop sun damage to the contents.

Red and blue totally makes me think of the matrix though...

 

[lodestone123]

I think parentastic has some good advice.
I question though how much danger the child is in? Many parents have different views on how to keep their children "safe". My very sane very lovely friends often rode with their child in the front seat when she was too small to do so - I frowned at this and showed my disagreement but beyond that, should I call CPS or the equivelant service? These are otherwise brilliant parents but I felt that were actually putting their child's life in danger. Where is the line?

If you have some rapport with your brother, I would keep chatting with him without being too pushy. Also chatting with an authority without giving names might help you to guauge when to draw the line and have them investigate. In the end, you won't be thanked for it and the child will probably be left with the family but you need to do what you think is right - just be sure you are being objective and not just flavoring it with how<U> you</U> might do things differently if it was your own.

 

[grieving]

Thank you all for your replies!!

Let's see, Squishy, you asked what is it that I wanted to get? Well, basically, I wanted to know how others' would have handled the situation. I wanted to know if what I did was out of line, whether I should have handled it in another manner. I feel terrible that I don't have any contact with them at all now, so I guess I did handle it wrong. I hope to soon try to get in touch again, to explain again and hope for another chance.

To be honest, part of me is kind of relieved I don't see them because there have been many times where I have bitten my tongue. I like the letter you came up with though, but I had already made contact with them the day after she was in the hospital to see how she was doing.

Thanks Lindengract, I am of the same opinion. Perhaps the only positive thing to come out of this situation is that they are now aware that there are people out there that think they should be more careful as it COULD be enough to warrant contacting the Ministry.

Jeremy, each capsule was bright blue on one side and bright red on the other. In hindsight, I should have kept one, but I guess I wasn't thinking clearly.

lodestone, I believe I have raised concerns when they were valid. They are raising their son alot different than I raised my children, but I never said anything if it was trivial. I did suggest to her that she vacuum more often, clean his tray on his highchair, exersaucer, bottles, etc as he could get sick.

Another thing I mentioned to them was that they never cleaned the toilet or dusted the tv stand. I don't think they cleaned that area once while they were staying here for the month. I don't know, maybe that was going too far, but it was disgusting. She never worked so she had the time, any parent of a small child can find the time to take care of what needs to be done. Is that judgmental of me?

And yes lodestone, where is that line? Once while downtown for a meeting, I was approached by a young woman holding an infant. She came up to me and asked me for money for her baby. I gave her some money, but contacted the Ministry right away. I don't know the end result, but I'm pretty sure from the way they took the information that they were dispatching someone as we spoke. I know that they love him, and he has made it this far for a reason. He should be over that stage where he would eat everything he comes across.

I plan on letting things cool off and will try to try to mend things with them. It's really too bad that things had to go this far, but I just could not not say anything.

 

[singledad]

Tough spot but I am not sure stupidity is CPS worthy, the most that might happen is they will go out, take a look around, talk with them and if it all appears well they will leave.

I feel bad for the little guy cause his dad should be the one helping to protect him. From what I am reading she doesn't sound like a bad person, just not a whole lot of common sense. I can honestly say I don;t know what I would do, it really is a judgement call.

Perhaps CPS having a chat with them is exactly what is needed? Perhaps that may help them understand the seriousness of leaving prescription meds lying around with a child in the house.