Gender Differences...
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I believe in equality, but I do believe in a seperation of gender!
I was raised in a house hold where both of my parents worked, my dad owns his own company and mom is a nurse. My parents both worked and both did their part in home life, raising us kids, chores, and other responsibilities. Neither parent had more say so over the other, and neither was more important in our lives, it was very balanced! That has stayed with me to the end.
The seperation part,
I was also raised as a Texan that a woman is to be treated as a woman. I was taught to open doors for women (young and old), to NEVER lay a hand on a woman ( and that any man that does isn't worth the bullet it would take to get rid of him), to talk as a gentleman in front of women, and that women are like roses; beautiful, smell good, and make the world a better place, but if your not carefull you'll get cut! I was also taught that there are his and hers chores, such as; mom did laundry, dad would take care of the yard work, mom would do the cleaning in the house, and dad made sure the cars are good to drive and so on and so on......
I think equality works best with balance and although not everyone will agree with me, that's the way I was raised and that's how I will raise mine!
I was raised in a house hold where both of my parents worked, my dad owns his own company and mom is a nurse. My parents both worked and both did their part in home life, raising us kids, chores, and other responsibilities. Neither parent had more say so over the other, and neither was more important in our lives, it was very balanced! That has stayed with me to the end.
The seperation part,
I was also raised as a Texan that a woman is to be treated as a woman. I was taught to open doors for women (young and old), to NEVER lay a hand on a woman ( and that any man that does isn't worth the bullet it would take to get rid of him), to talk as a gentleman in front of women, and that women are like roses; beautiful, smell good, and make the world a better place, but if your not carefull you'll get cut! I was also taught that there are his and hers chores, such as; mom did laundry, dad would take care of the yard work, mom would do the cleaning in the house, and dad made sure the cars are good to drive and so on and so on......
I think equality works best with balance and although not everyone will agree with me, that's the way I was raised and that's how I will raise mine!
gee coming from a mom of 8, I'm sure you're aware of one big difference, but I'll assume you're talking behavioral not biological ;-)
Well, I think there are gender differences, but how much of the differences are learned roles vs inherent traits is probably something we'll always struggle with. I don't have any girls so I can only compare nieces and girls at the boy's school.
Right or wrong, I think there's a range of behaviors within either gender. DS1 has traditionally liked playing kitchen, used to like purses and bags and organizing things, he wore high heels for a while and while we never discouraged or judged or put any labels on it, we did enforce an openess policy. Whatever he's going to do he does openly. So, if he's shy about wearing high heels in front of friends then he shouldn't do it at home. He also sews and likes interior design. He also likes and watches sports and his favorite is football, So, I don't think of him as a feminie boy, just well rounded....we'll see how he develops. We've tried really hard to just let those characteristics develop so he'll grow into whatever he's going to be...his little brother seems to pretty much be rough house boy, although he exhibits more empathy thatn we sometimes expect from the harsh exterior.
Well, I think there are gender differences, but how much of the differences are learned roles vs inherent traits is probably something we'll always struggle with. I don't have any girls so I can only compare nieces and girls at the boy's school.
Right or wrong, I think there's a range of behaviors within either gender. DS1 has traditionally liked playing kitchen, used to like purses and bags and organizing things, he wore high heels for a while and while we never discouraged or judged or put any labels on it, we did enforce an openess policy. Whatever he's going to do he does openly. So, if he's shy about wearing high heels in front of friends then he shouldn't do it at home. He also sews and likes interior design. He also likes and watches sports and his favorite is football, So, I don't think of him as a feminie boy, just well rounded....we'll see how he develops. We've tried really hard to just let those characteristics develop so he'll grow into whatever he's going to be...his little brother seems to pretty much be rough house boy, although he exhibits more empathy thatn we sometimes expect from the harsh exterior.
I am asking about both really, on another forum (all woman) they can not or will not acknowledge that there are differences. That by doing so 'I' am saying that woman are less then men.
Men and womens brains are different, that does not mean that neither sex can be great at whatever we want just that we may learn different and feel things differently....I got called a silly little girl LOL so I wanted to see what some of you men thought.
Men and womens brains are different, that does not mean that neither sex can be great at whatever we want just that we may learn different and feel things differently....I got called a silly little girl LOL so I wanted to see what some of you men thought.
M2M, I am going to go against the masses here and say that I totally agree with that person who talked to you.mom2many said:
Women brain might be slightly different, but recent advances in neurobiology has shown beyond any doubt that these differences are a result of how women and men are treated differently in the society.
A newborn brain is exactly the same whether it is a girl or a boy at birth; however the brain is plastic and it shapes itself based on the accumulated experience of a lifetime. Hence, as women are pushed toward certain kind of jobs, as they take care of children, and so on, they develop certain skillsets that are different from the ones most men develop, and this shapes their brain slightly differently.
Even with that, women and men share a lot more similar characteristics than differences.
Most feminist activist WILL acknowledge that there are differences; the key is that these differences are:
a) very minimal, WAY WAY WAY less important than our socialization leads us to think, and
b) with a couple of limited areas such as the ability to bear children, these differences are not inherent to the gender, but a result of how genders are <I>treated</I>,
c) and hence, that any gender can do and be whatever they want in the society and that this "difference" cannot be used as an excuse to prevent anyone from being treated equally.
See the work of Ann-Fauster Stirling, "Sexing the body", for an in-depth analysis of gender differences from a biological perspective.
In a society still heavily favored for men over women, the argument of difference is often used to "justify" that women should have lower pay, lower employment rates, less credit when seen in science, less influence, less floor space when in a group, less presence in the political sphere or in decision making, etc.mom2many said:
So I can see the argument there.
Differences - although minor - between genders do exists, but they are the same kind of difference that exists between the color of the eyes or the weight or the color of the hair or the color of the skin.
It is what society makes of it that increases and magnify these "differences" and make them seem so deep and big. And then THAT is use as a pretext to maintain inequalities.
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Personally, I profoundly dislike this kind of jokes, which to me are both:DFWRusty said:
a) sexist
and
b) completely untrue.
Men are just as complicated as women.
And as a man, I find it insulting and lowering to be associated with stereotypes of "simplicity" and "one track mind", as if this was true anyway.
I absolutely agree, but they still exists, doesn't matter how or why they still do. Nature created us in a way that our survival would be ensured, to discount that is doing humans a disadvantage. Like I said, it does not mean that woman can not be brain surgeons or men amazing fathers. I do believe environment plays a role, however that doesn't change that we do not think alike or that girls and boys do learn differently.parentastic said:
I just did a 15 page report on the brain, how it works, how it process and how it effects the genders (in education). To discount that there are differences also puts children at a disadvantage of learning. Now granted, no two children learn the same regardless of gender, but information is processed differently...doesn't matter why or how. It does.
I saw it as something different then you....not that woman are complicated (I am a woman and will admit me are, as are men) but that woman are capable of a lot more multitasking then men are. Now this is opinion, as just what I see around me, with friends husbands and my own husband.parentastic said:
I am sorry, but this is very vague.mom2many said:
Every human being thinks differently.
There are virtually hundreds of different models of thinking that attempted to measure how people think differently: The Mayrs-Briggs type indicator (MBTI) measures how you draw your energy, collect information, process it and make decisions; the kolb learning style inventory measures which of the 4 different types of learning mode you use (assimilator, divergor, convergor or accomodator), the Thomas-Killerman conflict instrument measures how people confront each other in conflicts, the Big 5 measures personality through the aneageamme, and so on.
NONE OF THEM found any marked difference between genders.
Yes, people do learn differently.
But it is making a great disservice to learners to try to categorize them by their gender, as if women learn a certain way and men a different way. This is false. Human beings, regardless of their gender, think differently, process information differently, take decision differently, learn differently, etc.
Well, sorry, but I am studying this right now in my Master degree, and I can assure you that this is not true.mom2many said:
What is being studied however, to my knowledge, is how boys will often need to spend more energy and have a harder time to stay put and concentrate in the traditional "lecture" type of teaching...
But that's a different topic.
I totally agree with you that the education system, right now and with a few exception, uses only one single way of teaching and that way matches the "assimilator" pattern from Kolb learning styles - the type where you get "lectures" and you are seen as a "jar" to be filled with "knowledge" (instead of constructing knowledge).mom2many said:
But it's not directly related to the gender - although it is possible to find a non-causal correlation because - again - of how gender is treated in the society.
But I think the real disservice is when we try to stick genders into a mold, it's no better to have 2-models-fits-all than to have 1-model-fit-all, IMO.
If you allow me to offer a slightly different affirmation:mom2many said:
<I>Women <U>display</U> a lot more multitasking than men in current society</I>
This speaks to the fact that they seem to show this ability more often when observed; even then, we would have to think <I>in which context </I>we are looking at this. But it does not speak to the <I>ability</I> of men to do the same.
The truth is, women are much more likely to have spent 15-20 years caring for 2-3 children while still balancing the delicate act of working part or full time and taking care of most of the chores in the house.
(That's when they aren't caring for 8 children like you!)
So they are more likely to DEVELOP this ability.
Put a man in charge of 8 children and he is going to RUSH like crazy just like you most likely did when you were young... and then he will learn the skill just like you did, too...
parentastic said:
I 1000% agree with that, no question about it. For me, at the end of the day we are all equal in what we are capable of doing and becoming and gender is only a small fraction of that.
Men and woman do process information differently, doesn't matter if it is natures grand design or as parents our nurturing when they are young.
Right now I am laughing at myself...I completely forgot I wrote that LOL...great multitasker I am LOLparentastic said:If you allow me to offer a slightly different affirmation:
<I>Women <U>display</U> a lot more multitasking than men in current society</I>
This speaks to the fact that they seem to show this ability more often when observed; even then, we would have to think <I>in which context </I>we are looking at this. But it does not speak to the <I>ability</I> of men to do the same.
The truth is, women are much more likely to have spent 15-20 years caring for 2-3 children while still balancing the delicate act of working part or full time and taking care of most of the chores in the house.
(That's when they aren't caring for 8 children like you!)
So they are more likely to DEVELOP this ability.
Put a man in charge of 8 children and he is going to RUSH like crazy just like you most likely did when you were young... and then he will learn the skill just like you did, too...
I'll be back for this one...I must go teach Vanna math
It never ceases to amaze me how highly educated people become so declarative and literal as they climb the ladder of knowledge.
Statements like "This is true" or "That is false" IMHO should be replaced with "based off of current data I believe" Or "Current studies indicate this to be the case"
You see these type of literal statements in the press all the time. And they can be both misleading and damaging. And I see it often in my information gathering for Autism.
Jeremy+3 Showed me the light many threads ago. That we cant and shouldn't base our idea's off of someone Else's interpretation of a study. Its not unusual for two people to come away with a different conclusions of most written studies.
So I will error on the side of caution saying that it has been my experience whether in insects, animals, or humans there clearly is a difference in both thought and preference of genders. Not to say any one is better or worse. Not to say either gender cannot over come that instinctual boundary.
So my answer is yes to the first question, and a absolute NO to the second.
IMO
And the biggest problem with DFW's image was the lower panel included a on/off switch. I thought it was a humorous image
Statements like "This is true" or "That is false" IMHO should be replaced with "based off of current data I believe" Or "Current studies indicate this to be the case"
You see these type of literal statements in the press all the time. And they can be both misleading and damaging. And I see it often in my information gathering for Autism.
Jeremy+3 Showed me the light many threads ago. That we cant and shouldn't base our idea's off of someone Else's interpretation of a study. Its not unusual for two people to come away with a different conclusions of most written studies.
So I will error on the side of caution saying that it has been my experience whether in insects, animals, or humans there clearly is a difference in both thought and preference of genders. Not to say any one is better or worse. Not to say either gender cannot over come that instinctual boundary.
So my answer is yes to the first question, and a absolute NO to the second.
IMO
And the biggest problem with DFW's image was the lower panel included a on/off switch. I thought it was a humorous image
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This question always sorts of reminds me of when people indignantly insist "everybody is the same" as though to be different is somehow bad.
Everybody is an individual, to be sure, regardless of their sex, but there are things about myself that make me a woman, things that go to my core, and I'm not talking about anatomy. I'm not talking about the stereotypes, either. I would not even closely fit the description of a stereotypical woman.
I think this would be an interesting question to put to cross gender individuals. I think they would say that yes there is a difference and they know that difference well.
Everybody is an individual, to be sure, regardless of their sex, but there are things about myself that make me a woman, things that go to my core, and I'm not talking about anatomy. I'm not talking about the stereotypes, either. I would not even closely fit the description of a stereotypical woman.
I think this would be an interesting question to put to cross gender individuals. I think they would say that yes there is a difference and they know that difference well.
I agree. Since when is difference bad?MomoJA said:
I believe that there definitely are differences. Not necessarily all those things that people once believed - men aren't smarter than women, and all that rubbish about spacial skills and mathematical ability has been discredited enough times that I don't think it needs to be debated anymore. I think, intellectually, men and women are 100% on par.
However, a human being consists of more than physical appearance and intellect. I think that, personality wise, there is still difference. Its not black and white since all people of both genders are individuals, but whether due to condition or due to hormones (testosterone vs. estrogen or whatever) men and women tend to have different points of view on certain things, and consider different things to be important. I think that the reason is less important than understanding that these difference provide us with different strengths that we can use to compliment each other, and to become better when working together than we could be when working separately.
As an example - <U>and this is from my own, personal experience, so please don't tell me its wrong - its an observation, not a scientific hypothesis</U> - men tend to be more aggressive and solution driven (just get it fixed, NOW!) while women tend to be more focused on the detail (Hey, wait, you have to do it properly!). Also, women, in my experience, are very resourceful, and while men tend to get hung up on what is right and what is wrong (seeing things in black and white), the woman behind him is quietly solving the problem in a way he would never even have considered... Of course it is much more complex than this, but I just wanted to give one small example.
Yep - that would be really interesting. After all - if there was no difference, why go through all the trouble of changing your gender?MomoJA said:
Really? Perhaps I am luckier to live in the third world than I thought. I didn't realize that these issues were still so big in the so-called developed world, when here, in our backwards third-world country, equality is both enforced by law and accepted by society, at least in the circles where I move. (Although I know that in rural communities where tribalism still rules, things are different. But that is a different situation altogether) Companies can get taken to court for paying women less than men, and I can't recall the last time I heard anyone worth mentioning (I'm excluding a few criminally idiotic politicians here) give a woman less credit than a man. Some of the most powerful figures in politics and industry in our country are women. If it was up to me, we'd have a female president, not because she's female, but because I believe her to be the best candidate.parentastic said:
I do believe that one needs to be realistic, too. For example - men are physically stronger than women. Therefor, there will always be more men than women in certain fields - specifically those that involve manual labour. I don't believe that women should be excluded from these fields, but a women should be prepared (and able) to do the same job as her male colleagues if she is to demand the same salary. Fair goes both ways, right?
As an interesting angle on equality - I had an discussion with a female colleague a few years ago. She was of the opinion that one of the majour reasons why women are still under-represented in certain fields, was that young girls don't have the confidence and the self-belief to aim for those jobs. She mentioned that at university - out of her class of 150 students, only 10 were female. So if girls don't get the qualifications, where will the women in the industry come from? Please understand - I'm not blaming women here. I haven't lived in a woman's body, so I can't know the complexities, but since that discussion, I have made a point of always impressing on my daughter that if she puts her mind to it, she can become anything she wants to - the sky is her limit, and she should not hesitate to aim for it. LOL. At one stage, she wanted to be a fireman, so I bought her a toy fire-truck, which she loved playing with for a while. She has, however, since decided that she'd rather become a ballerina...