Having some insane issues with my 5 year old daughter.. Need advise...

[Xerc]

Alright.. Here is some background info.

I have a 5 year old daughter with my 2nd ex-wife. Her mom left he when she was about 6 months old and basically came in and out of her life for the past 4 years. Now her mom has moved states and never comes around and never visits. She did live with her mom for about 6 months while I was working a crazy shift and did not have access to babysitting.

I am now married with wife number 3, the only one that matters , and we are experiencing problems with her that I've never seen before. Even before I was married. These problems did not start until after I got my daughter back and have been getting progressively worse. She is no stranger to my wife as I was dating her for 4 years and has always been here for us.

Here are the problems that I am experiencing with my daughter.

1. She refuses to listen to either myself or my wife.
2. She believes that anything we say to the kids, in general, doesn't apply to her and will not do anything unless we directly say it to her. Ex. We say, "Go clean your room." She will just sit there and stare at us blankly.
3. She refuses to eat and when she does eat, she forces herself to throw up unless it is some crap she wants to eat. We do not believe in finding out kids junk food and apparently that is what my daughter is used to since she lived with her mother.
4. She cries about anything and everything. If we tell her to do something that she doesn't want to do, she cries.

The thing I do not understand the most is that she only does this with my wife and I. We just recently stayed at the in-laws and she acted like a normal kid. She ate and drank everything she was given, she listened to what she was told to do, and she didn't cause a single problem. The moment we get her back the problems started up again and have since gotten worse.

Any ideas or suggestions on what we can try to do to fix this problem?? We are going out of our mind and are very miserable right now..

 

[Xerc]

Oh yea.. A bit more information.

She does this type of behavior each day and has been doing this for 90+ days now, straight.

I've tried sitting her down and talking to her but it's like nothing gets through. She just stares at us blankly and just repeats back what we say. If we ask her why she does things, she doesn't give us an answer and with either just lie to us or not say anything at all..

 

[parentastic]

Hello Xerc,

It is difficult to diagnose your daughter's problem with so little information, so I'll try to offer some possible insights.

First, you say that your daughter started this behavior about 90 days ago. Since she is 5 years old, and (from what I understand) she is with you and has been with you and your new wife for much more than 3 months, then there might be a piece of information missing here.

What is different? What changed 3 months ago?
To help you better, I would need to understand this better.
In term of custody, with who exactly did your daughter spent her time in her recent past? When was she with her mother? with you? At what percentage of her days? What was the custody arrangements?
Where is her mother now? Where has she been for the past 3 months?
What your daughter is doing is not random, so you need to identify the events that may be linked to it.

I will also need you to tell me how you handle discipline and communication. From the little information I could gather from your posts, I am under the impression that she doesn't seem to have a strong connection to your wife and yourself. Does she confide in you? Are there moments you and your daughter enjoy together, such as bed time stories or other moments in which you can feel the connection? Were these moments present before she started this behavior? Are they still present today? Is she behaving like this only during certain moments during the day, or at all time with you, in the past 90 days?

Let me know so I can help you.

Nicolas
Family Life Educator

 

[Xerc]

Hello Xerc,

It is difficult to diagnose your daughter's problem with so little information, so I'll try to offer some possible insights.

First, you say that your daughter started this behavior about 90 days ago. Since she is 5 years old, and (from what I understand) she is with you and has been with you and your new wife for much more than 3 months, then there might be a piece of information missing here.

What is different? What changed 3 months ago?
To help you better, I would need to understand this better.
In term of custody, with who exactly did your daughter spent her time in her recent past? When was she with her mother? with you? At what percentage of her days? What was the custody arrangements?
Where is her mother now? Where has she been for the past 3 months?
What your daughter is doing is not random, so you need to identify the events that may be linked to it.

I will also need you to tell me how you handle discipline and communication. From the little information I could gather from your posts, I am under the impression that she doesn't seem to have a strong connection to your wife and yourself. Does she confide in you? Are there moments you and your daughter enjoy together, such as bed time stories or other moments in which you can feel the connection? Were these moments present before she started this behavior? Are they still present today? Is she behaving like this only during certain moments during the day, or at all time with you, in the past 90 days?

Let me know so I can help you.

Nicolas
Family Life Educator

She has always lived with me since she was born. Her mom would stop by and say hi but never really stay. She would stay with her mom on the weekends and whenever i had to work late nights. There would be months where her mom would disappear and not see her for weeks at a time. This was how it was for the first 3 1/2 years of her life.

When she was 4, she stayed with her mom for about 9 months as I was told that she, my ex-wife, had changed her ways and was really interested in taking care of her daughter. I was in a bind at that exact time and I thought it would do her, my daughter, good for her to be with her mom since I can not fulfill that role. My ex-wife displayed behavior that just wasn't good for parenting so I got my daughter back and she has been living with my wife and since. Her mom moved to Indiana with her parents since she is having money issues. I live in Texas. For the 9 months my daughter lived with her mom, they both lived in Texas and I would try to see her as much as I could but it turned into a nasty custody battle that I ended up winning. At that time, my daughter said she wanted to live with me due to the harsh conditions with her mother.

The custody arrangement has been that she is with me full time. She spent the most of her time with me, and only me. For all of her life I have been a single parent and had never lived with my wife now. My daughter and I have always had a good relationship, that I thought, and we really never had any problems outside of the normal issues.

My daughter used to talk to me all of the time. We would have conversations and do things together. My wife now tries to teach her things and my daughter will listen to her talk. She can repeat back the things my wife tells her and will do them at first. We still try to talk as much as possible but with a baby and her two step sisters having surgery together, we haven't had as much time as we used to.

Her behavior is at it's worst when I am not here and she is left with my wife but will go through into the time that I am actually here. If I am left alone with my daughter, she will display the same problems with me as she would with my wife.

Did I miss anything?

 

[parentastic]

Dear Xerc,

Thank you for the additional information. I can now attempt some educated guess.

These problems did not start until after I got my daughter back and have been getting progressively worse. (...)

Let's try to do some perspective taking from your daughter's perspective while she was back with her mother.
After 3 and half years of life with you are the main solid attachment in her life, she is suddenly moved to a new home, with her "mom" who is very much a stranger to her compared to you, in a different country and far from her primary care giver.
This must have been a terrible trauma for her.
Why is dad leaving me? What did I do wrong? Is it my fault? Why can't I see him more often? Why is mom not with dad?
Children's brain are egocentric, they cannot but center every possible explanation around themselves, and feel responsible for their own emotions. It must have been a very difficult 9 months for her.

Now she is back with the one person with whom she was securely attached. She now has to deal with all of the accumulated guilt and insecurity I described above (why did dad get rid of me?), but in addition, dad is no longer alone with her. Now she comes back to a fully made family, with at least another baby there and a new wife for you. She is no longer the sole child, that "privileged" relationship she had with you is "gone" in her eyes.

Then there is this:

The thing I do not understand the most is that she only does this with my wife and I. We just recently stayed at the in-laws and she acted like a normal kid. She ate and drank everything she was given, she listened to what she was told to do, and she didn't cause a single problem. The moment we get her back the problems started up again and have since gotten worse.

and that:

We still try to talk as much as possible but with a baby and her two step sisters having surgery together, we haven't had as much time as we used to.

So my guess is that she has instinctively found a behavior that forces you to attend to her, to put her back at the center of your preoccupation. She is unconsciously working her attachment needs with you by forcing you to worry and care for her. Her actions carry her anger at being left off, her need to be taken care of, her desire to have you for herself, and her jealousy at your new wife for interfering with her relationship.

What do to about this?

If I am right, you will need to find the time to spend some real quality time with her and re-establish the lost connection. You will also have to have some deep conversation about what happened there, why you left her with her mom before, how you missed her and wanted to be with her and fought to get her back. You will also need to find a way to get her to FEEL (not just tell her, it has to be through actions) that even with a new wife and a baby, she still matters just as much as before for you.
The food and the attitude is just the symptom. The cause is, I believe, much deeper.

If I am left alone with my daughter, she will display the same problems with me as she would with my wife.

If I am right, what you could do when you spend some time alone with her is not to focus on her negative behaviour, but instead try to find something positive and show you enjoy spending some time with her.
For instance:

3. She refuses to eat and when she does eat, she forces herself to throw up

You can try gently telling her that the time spent on getting her to eat properly makes you sad (not angry!) because you'd really want to spend all this time doing fun stuff together instead.

1. She refuses to listen to either myself or my wife.
4. She cries about anything and everything. If we tell her to do something that she doesn't want to do, she cries.

Reflect back her emotion: when she refuses to listen to you, name it: "You don't like doing what I say, do you?" and then "You like to do it YOUR WAY right?" and stay neutral and open. If she cries and refuses to do something, name it: "It's frustrating to do what I asked...?" and "You are really not happy." Be genuinely interested to listen to your child's rather than focused on getting her to do whatever you initially intended her to do. You need to open the door to communication. By naming her emotion, you teach her to tell you how to name her emotions and you show you are ready to hear more. You will be surprised with how much you can learn about what is going on using this technique.

Let me know how it goes as you try some of these things.
Good luck!

Nicolas,
Family Life Educator

 

[Xerc]

Yup.. Going to try these things. Hopefully they can help. Thanks for the info.

 

[Xerc]

Yea.. I've been trying these things for the past few days and it seems to only make things worse now. HA.

She doesn't want to eat at all and now whenever I stand there to make her eat, she just throws it up.. She is now up to 2 times a day where this happens.. GAH FML.

 

[parentastic]

Yea.. I've been trying these things for the past few days and it seems to only make things worse now. HA.
She doesn't want to eat at all and now whenever I stand there to make her eat, she just throws it up.. She is now up to 2 times a day where this happens.. GAH FML.

Dear Xerc,

Could you provide me with more information?
Give me some concrete, detailed explanation of exactly what happened, for instance the last time you were "standing there to make her eat".
Try to give me a "picture" as detailed as possible:
How were you standing, who else if any was present around, where both of you were sitting or standing, what exactly did you tell her, as verbatim as possible (your exact words, then her exact words, and so on, in order for me to have a "real" sample of a typical conversation while she displays this behavior).
Make it a chronological event, from an hour before dinner time all the way to an hour or so after she has trow up her meal.

I am trying to understand the dynamic, so I need all these details (since I can't be there physically to see you both interact).

Also, no kids will usually let themselves die of hunger, so I am curious to know how she ends up feeding? If she has been doing this for 90+ days, and she hasn't lost significant weight and has not had some serious health problem, then obviously she is still eating something and that something seems enough to sustain her basic needs, so I'd like to understand what is really going on - the whole picture. Could you help me help you?

Le me know, and I'll continue to try to help you.
Don't hesitate to contact privately if there are any details you'd rather keep private.

Nicolas
Family Life Educator

 

[Xerc]

Take this morning as a perfect example of what has to happen on a daily basis for this girl to eat.. Note, this only works with me. With my wife, she doesn't even do this, just goes straight to throwing up.

This morning our girls, around 9am, decided to come and get us and let us know that they were hungry. My daughter in question started crying the moment my wife went out there and asked to speak to me. My daughter told me she wasn't hungry which shouldn't be true cause she didn't eat lunch or dinner from the night prior. I tell her fine, she doesn't have to eat right now, as I am trying to show her that I am not always mad at her for telling me she isn't hungry.

Fast forward to about 10:30am. I am getting ready for work and what not. I go out to the kitchen when I do the dishes before I run off to work. She hasn't eaten in over 24+ hours and I really want her to eat something. I bring her in there and tell her to sit at our bar which is right in front of our sink. Perfect place for me to watch her while she eats. I make her a bowl of cereal and she sits there and takes the smallest bites possible. So for the 20 to 30 minutes that I am doing dishes she is making these whining noises that are just really annoying.I know she is really only doing this to get my attention but I feel that she is more looking for the negative attention then the positive attention. Since I have to leave for work, I give her a deadline of eating her bowl of cereal. Normally I wont do this but I believe taking an hr to eat a bowl of cereal is not normal. She never used to take that long and would eat 2 or 3 bowls in that time period.

So it is about 5 minutes before 11:30am and she is finally down to the milk in the bowl. She then tries to give me every excuse under the sun as to why she cannot sit there and drink it. Note, we make our girls drink the milk in the bowl. We've both done this to our girls since they were able to eat and this is nothing new to any of them. She starts telling me that she has to go bathroom. That doesn't work so she tells me that she cannot eat anymore but when I ask her why she wont give me a reason. Again, she hasn't eaten in over 24+ hours and I did not give her a big bowl. So I am finished with the dishes by now and I am just standing there watching her eat cause if you don't watch her she will just sit there and make these noises.

After finally yelling at her, she drinks the milk in the bowl and ends her breakfast an hr after the time she started..

As far as a timeline for when she throws up, it goes something like this.

My wife will cook the food and serve it to all of the kids. The other two kids start eating and my daughter just picks at it. Anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes into the meal, she will just throw up. She doesn't wait till after everyone else is done or when she's alone, she will just do it right there at our bar. I've seen her throw food up after only 2 bites and sometimes it is just the food that is in her mouth.. Sometimes she chews it, sometimes she doesn't. We know she likes the food we make as she used to eat it all of the time. She started this throwing up phase about 2 to 4 weeks ago. She used to just whine and complain until we yelled at her and made her eat her food.

My wife strongly believes that she does this because she doesn't get her way and that she is being openly defiant due to the fact that she doesn't want to eat what we are making.

As far as not letting herself starve, I am not sure she is that smart.. Sad to say. She once went a whole day without drinking anything while refusing to eat. I now have to stand near her and make sure that she drinks water and other things to make sure she doesn't get dehydrated.

Also, I do not mind posting this as it might actually help someone else in the same situation as I am.

 

[parentastic]

Thank you for posting these details, Xerc.
First, I would like to respond to this:

My wife strongly believes that she does this because she doesn't get her way and that she is being openly defiant due to the fact that she doesn't want to eat what we are making.

Please tell your wife that this is not the case. There is something going on that is much more serious and, although I will do my best to help you, you should definitely meet a professional (a child psychologist, not only a pediatric doctor) if I haven't managed to help you make significant progress in the next week or so.

This being said, I would like to offer you a different way to see her behavior and her situation.
I believe your daughter is deeply suffering. Something deep and very important to her is going on in her mind, and it leads her to this external symptom - the behavior she displays - because it is the only way she found to express it. When she makes those noises, it's not only "to get negative attention". I am convinced she is suffering, (maybe not physically, although it could also be that), but she does not know how to express it, or does not trust you enough to express it more clearly.
So as a first step, I would like you to try to change the way you see it.
Instead of being angry with her attitude, I would like you to consider her with concern and care, as you would see her if, for instance, she had a broken arm and were having trouble eating because of this.
The attitude you have toward her as she displays her trauma through her behavior is critical, because she will interpret it and it feeds the pattern.
She must realize your concern through your compassion, because she cannot, and will not realize it through your anger.
And she desperately need your compassion and understanding.

My daughter in question started crying the moment my wife went out there and asked to speak to me.

There is something going on there. Your daughter is displaying deep signs of anxiety, perhaps fear or loneliness or isolation, I cannot tell at this point. But she is terribly sad, she seem to be afraid of something.

I am going to ask a difficult question here, but please take a few seconds to REALLY think about it before you answer: is there ANY possibility that your daughter had been physically, sexually or verbally abused by an adult or a teen in your family or around you? She displays some very extreme behavior and there is definitely something serious going on.
Is she displaying any fear regarding your new wife? How is she interacting with her outside meal situations? What about other adults or teens around her?
Moreover, serious bullying or abuse could also result in loss of appetite. So could many disease. So I wouldn't necessarily write-off the possibility that she is actually telling the truth when she says she is not hungry.

One more thing. In many of my suggestions above as well as more to come below, I am talking about re-establishing the trust and the connection between her and you. If you see the behavior increasing with you instead of decreasing, it is not necessarily a bad sign. When we are truly suffering, we will often hide some of that suffering unless we feel truly safe to show them. Sometimes, the worst behaviors are signs that the trust link is re-established, so in a way it sort of has to go worst before it goes better.

As for what to do now, here are some suggestions.

I would imagine at 5 years old, she is not a baby anymore; however in this case, I am wondering if you are strong enough to carry her close to you everywhere you go for a day. Maybe not literally... but what I mean is, get her away from anybody else but you. Spend a day with her, away from the others and away from your wife, just you and her. Keep her close, involve her, show her you care.

One of the most delicate problem is that, sometimes, letting her not eat when it's the time can just as much send the wrong message: it might be interpreted as "I don't care if you are hungry or not". In all cases, however, do not yell! She displays a behavior that could be linked to being afraid. Yelling is always counter-productive. You need her to trust you so she can eventually tell you what is going on. Yelling will scare her away from letting you know what is going on.

Counselors use a technique called "active listening" to get children to talk about their problems. You can learn this technique too, so you can use it to help your daughter and understand what is going on in her mind.
It's difficult to teach this technique on a written forum, it takes a lot of examples and practices to get it right. But you could probably research it on the internet. It involves reflecting back the emotion you are guessing under the attitude and the communication she makes.
You sort of "go fishing" for the emotions.
Instead of saying "Drink your milk!" you will for instance say:
"You really don't want to drink the milk right now."
Instead of saying "Why do you cry?" (you won't get an answer to this), you say: "You are so sad and afraid right now..."
Don't worry about getting it wrong. If you are wrong, she will let you know. That's why sometimes, it's like going fishing: you need to make some guesses. But the point is to attempt to reflect back the emotion, so it shows that you have heard it and that you are ready to hear more.
Then let the silence get between you, keep your focus on her eyes and make a gentle smile, or a gentle touch, and usually soon enough she will tell you a liiiiiitle more. Now reflect THAT back again, and wait... and you will get more. And so on.

Try that, and in conclusion - please do take this situation seriously.
This is not a classic defiance. Something is going on. You need to find out what it is. And make an appointment with a child professional right away. Feel free to write me anytime about this.

Nicolas
Family Life Educator

 

[oliko]

Well, I guess it all has to do with your ex-wife, girl's mother. No one knows how she communicated with your daughter. It's quite possible that the girl was allowed to do anything she wanted, so certainly she got used to such behavior. Anyways, I think you should apply to a psychologist. There are many websites with reviews in the web, so you will easily find a professional.

 

[Step23]

I would say your daughter is definetely having anxiety issues about something. I would also say that yelling at her isn't the solution to this, in fact, it is probably making the entire situation worse.

When did you and your wife marry? When did your wife and her children begin living with you? Did this happen while your daughter was with her mother?

What I'm seeing at first glance, is a little girl who was left by her daddy with a "stranger" (her mother). Then a custody battle ensued, and even though parents think they might not be involving the children, kids pick up on the tension and anger. Then, she's back with you, but WHOA!! Now, there's this woman, 2 other girls, and a baby! That is a LOT for a little girl to absorb. Especially one who probably felt she was the sun, moon and stars in her father's world. And, no, it doesn't matter one bit if you and your wife had been dating 4 years, 4 months, or 14 years prior! Marriage, living together, other siblings? All change this little girl's life. I'm a stepmother, and I had dated my husband for 7 1/2 years before we married. My relationship with my husband's minor son did change when I married his father and we then lived in the same house. I was no longer the "fun" dad's girlfriend he saw on the occasional weekend. Now, I was there EVERY weekend, and I expected him to pick up after himself, and he could no longer take over the TV all weekend, and he had to shower every morning, and the runs to the fast food joints were over. I was no longer the popular person I once was.

My suggestion? You, your wife, and your daughter need to get into counseling. Your daughter is attempting to tell you something, but her verbal skills are not yet developed enough to tell you exactly what is bothering her. And, since this impacts your family, you and your wife need to be involved. I would also suggest the 2 stepsisters, but I'm unsure of their ages.

This is not the 5 yr old demanding her way. She might be missing her daddy, yes. That is to be expected in her circumstance, and your wife would do well to be sensitive to that. However, I think a therapist will help all of you get back on track.

Good luck!

 

[Xerc]

My wife and I were also thinking of what could have happened when my daughter lived with her mom. She wont tell us and my ex-wife wont tell me so I can only assume that things couldn't have been good. My daughter has always been able to tell me things before.

She has started to open up a bit and has started acting a little bit normal but who knows for how long.

I do intent to seek counseling but I am in the process of moving and things couldn't be at a worse point, as far as money goes.

 

[cjhays]

Very curious to know how things are going for you now????

 

[LucyCoffee]

What exactly is the situation now, after all this time? Your kids should be grown up and know a lot more, right?