I kinda lost it last night .......

[GavinH]

I'm not too proud of this but I kinda lost it last night with my 7 year old daughter last night. Some of you may remember the problem posted here http://www.parentingforums.org/showthread.php?t=12438 but in summary ... she calls out numerous times a night, settles quickly most times but last night was a marathon. I was up from 2am on with her and this after 2 or 3 similar nights and I guess the exhaustion and frustration got the better of me. In the end we both apologized to each other and with a lot of hugs and tears we fell asleep together about 40 minutes before getting up time.

It has been about 2 months since the original posting (although it feels like more) and there seems to be no real progress. Some nights are better than others but not a single uninterrupted night in so many months is wearing me out. I am wondering when things will change .... she will be 8 in January.

Any further help, advice, or just support to keep going is appreciated.

Thanks
Gavin

 

[alter ego]

parentastic gave some great advice, and i have a few ideas
is there a reason she cant sleep with you, then gradually work to change it?
how about a baby monitor, so she can easily call you if shes scared?
have you asked her why she doesnt like her room?
have you tried reassuring her and saying "ill be there in a second, I just have to pee" and seeing if she falls back to sleep?

 

[Chris Thompson]

Gavin - I haven't read your entire thread on this but I have some simple and I hope helpful advice.

Basically - put the responsibility for solving this problem on her shoulders, but be there to help.

Start by asking her to come up with a list of potential solutions. Ask her to present them from you. By doing this, you'll be getting her into the mindset of solving this problem.

(BTW I have a daughter who is turning 7 this weekend, so I am able to understand the mentality of a child that age).

It's very clear that your daughter is in a pattern where she feels comfortable being in a parent's bed at night. Breaking this will be something that doesn't happen instantly but will have to be her responsibility.

One suggestion I will offer is to arrange "sleepover" nights with her. But in order for her to earn the sleepover, she needs to stay in her own bed on the non-sleepover nights.

You might arrange that Friday is the sleepover night. Hey, it's the weekend in the morning and it might work out just fine. Adjust for your own schedule, but make it a special night where you maybe watch a movie together in bed, read a story, etc. Then go to sleep.

You can use an if / then scenario to help her understand the logical consequence of giving you a hard time at night.

And you might have to PLAN out a whole schedule in advance. In the beginning maybe she gets 3 sleepovers a week. Then 2, then 1 .. and eventually none.

Have her draft up the plan, and have her sign an agreement to build in commitment.

I hope this idea is helpful!

Chris

 

[parentastic]

I'm not too proud of this but I kinda lost it last night with my 7 year old daughter last night. Some of you may remember the problem posted here http://www.parentingforums.org/showthread.php?t=12438 but in summary ... she calls out numerous times a night, settles quickly most times but last night was a marathon. I was up from 2am on with her and this after 2 or 3 similar nights and I guess the exhaustion and frustration got the better of me. In the end we both apologized to each other and with a lot of hugs and tears we fell asleep together about 40 minutes before getting up time.

Hello Gavin!
I am happy to read an update about this, and sorry it has not improved too much so far. Don't give up. We can work this out.
To help you further, I need more information:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• What have you exactly tried from what I suggested in the other post?</LI>
  <LI>
• How often did you try it?</LI>
  <LI>
• Did you had some heart to heart conversations with her since then, about this?</LI>
  <LI>
• Have you tried the "come to my room when you need to" approach - but not in your bed, (like a camp bed) so that you are not waked up?</LI>

</LIST>
Basically, I would need a summary of the patterns you have tried and the result you have observed for the 60-90 last nights (the last 2-3 months) so we can figure out what is going on.

Oh and... don't worry about "losing it last night".
It's okay! You are not a robot.
And an end in a lot of tears and hugs is nice, it's the principle of reparation - it shows care and connection.


Your night don't need to be interrupted even if your daughter wakes up and needs to be next to you. You could orient the solution toward this kind of creative ideas, such as the camp bed idea.

Also, Chris Thomson has the right idea, I think, when he suggests to give back the problem to her. To be more precise, you <I>both </I>have the problem: you need your sleep, she needs you to sleep. So you need to <I>problem-solve together</I>. Make her part of the solution. At 8, she is old enough to think ideas for herself, if you help her with the parameters.
Here are those parameters:


<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• I need to have sleep whole nights without being interrupted</LI>
  <LI>
• You sometimes wake up in your bedroom and feel scared</LI>
  <LI>
• When you feel scared, you know getting into my room helps</LI>

</LIST>
Okay. So what can we do together so that <I>both our needs</I> are met? And let her find solutions. I can think of a dozen solutions just in a few minutes, but it's much more powerful if it comes from her.

Let me know the above information and I'll try to help more.

Nicolas, Family Life Educator

 

[GavinH]

Hi Nicolas

I appreciate you reading and contributing again on this issue.

Over the last 2 months I have worked hard on developing a stronger relationship with my daughter. We have pizza picnic nights where we 'camp' out on the living room floor, eat and either draw, color or play. She is helping me cook dinner occasionally and we plan and do some 'just you and me' activities. I have been telling her regularly that I'll be here for her and her confidence in that seems to be improving as she will now walk to her friends home up the street alone (she doesn't know that I watch her all the way to make sure she is safe).

We have spoken at length about why she calls and the reply seems to consistently revolve around 'I want you here' and 'I need you to fall asleep'. She is emphatic that there is nothing that scares her in the room although Halloween didn't help and she was afraid for a few days.

I have not tried the camp bed approach mainly because I really see that as exchanging one problem for another. I don't want to have to then figure out how to get her from the camp bed to her own a year from now.

Over the last 60-90 days the calling out for me has varied from 5 or 6 times a night to once a night. When she calls I have been going in, reassuring her that I am there and sitting on the edge of the bed as she falls back to sleep. If I sneak out too soon she'll call me back and we start again.

After the episode on Monday (11/7) I felt that perhaps this started out as an anxiety or abandonment concern but has become more of a belief on her part that she cant fall asleep without me issue. At bed time we read together and then we lay together and cozy up till she falls asleep so I may be reinforcing the belief that she needs me to fall asleep.

Last night I tried something new .... Before bed I told her that when she called I would come but only as far as the door. She wasn't too happy about this but was prepared to try. It took longer for her to settle down but she did eventually fall back to sleep. I think for the next few nights I will keep this up and maybe even start encouraging her to fall asleep on her own at bed time. Perhaps finding an excuse to leave the room before she falls asleep ... gotta fold that laundry before it cools. I think that as she realizes that she can fall asleep alone she will gain confidence and then, if she wakes in the night, will put herself back to sleep.

The poor kid feels genuinely sorry for calling out and usually apologizes in the morning.

Again ... any suggestions and help is appreciated.

Gavin

 

[parentastic]

Hello Gavin!
I have read your update with attention and it seems quite positive to me.
Basically, my understanding of the situation is that:
<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Your daughter now wakes up once a night instead of 5-6 times a night,</LI>
  <LI>
• The quality of your relationship has increased significantly</LI>
  <LI>
• A lot of her anxiety patterns have receeded and she has become more autonomous</LI>
  <LI>
• She genuinly seems sorry to disrupt your sleep</LI>

</LIST>On the flip side:
<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• She still wakes you once a night</LI>
  <LI>
• Since it's been happening for over 2 months now, the accumulation of it is probably making this increasingly difficult despite the obvious improvement</LI>

</LIST>All in all, I hope you can look back and see that you are doing the right thing and your situation seems to be on an auspicious circle, positivily moving forward, rather than a downward spiral like before. It's going well!
Now. From what I have read so far, I see two distinct patterns going on.

1) Falling asleep when it's time to go to sleep, and
2) Staying asleep the whole night

I think the two issues, although related, are still quite distinct.
Most children have problems with falling asleep, even at 8 years old, and appreciate the peace and safety that comes from having a routine, being read a story, spending some quite quality time right before bed with their parent. Your child fits right within the norms for this. Perhaps other parents could come forward and share their own story about this part.

For this part, the key is to stick to the same routine all the time.
For instance: sleeping-gawn, teeth, get into bed, read a story, give hugs and kiss, turn off light. After the routine is over, if she still can't fall asleep without you, it's a good idea to stay around close enough so she can hear you, and to respond vocally each time she calls (as a way to say gently "it's okay, I am not far!" yet without changing the routine and spending more time by her side, so she get accustomed to the idea that dad is not far and it's okay even when he is not right THERE at her bedside.

However, it is the waking up during the night part that is still problematic, although improving. That part is unconscious. When she wakes up, you are not around, there is no noise, she is all alone and it's difficult for her not to get insecure. And for that issue, what makes it more complicated is the paradox of attachment vs learned behavior:
<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• The more you create a habit, the more she get accustomed to it and wants it, and gets insecured when it's not there</LI>

</LIST>but

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• The more you insist on her sleeping alone, the more you trigger rejection issues and deepen the fears and anxiety, countering your attempts to securize her and remove the sleep anxiety. The more you respond to her needs, the more she gets secure and feels safe, and the less likely she is to wake up in the middle of the night.</LI>

</LIST>You need to walk a fine line between those two opposite phenomenons.

I have not tried the camp bed approach mainly because I really see that as exchanging one problem for another. I don't want to have to then figure out how to get her from the camp bed to her own a year from now.

It's up to you, there are many more possible solutions. But it's also a pragmatic question: you need your sleep, and so does your daughter; so you need to find a way that both of you can sleep - you without interruptions and her without anxiety.
Have you tried asking her to help you figure out a solution?

Problem solving and letting the child be a part of the solution is <I>powerful</I>. Let me know how it goes.

Bottom line though: don't give up! You are on the right path, as the clear improvement in her anxiety patterns shows. Kudos!

Nicolas, Family Life Educator

 

[Sallyskidshop]

Have you though about installing a night light for her that does help, she maybe scared of the dark. Another good idea is to leave a radio on softly so that when she wakes she'll hear some noise and not feel so alone.

 

[GavinH]

Hi fellow forum folks ...

I must apologize for not getting back here to respond to this thread .... work had had me slammed pretty full for the last few weeks.

I guess I may have not been too clear in my original post ... my daughter still calls at least 5 or 6 times a night and this past week it has been even worse. I am exhausted and sure that she is too.

Getting her to bed and the initial falling asleep is no problem at all. We have a good routine that we stick to every day and she is typically asleep within 10 to 20 minutes. After bath time we read for 30 minutes starting at 8pm and at 8:30 reading light is off and we cuddle till she falls asleep.

The real problem is her continued waking up. I am still at at a total loss here. she seem to stir out of her sleep and then calls me. I go and settle her then she insists i stay till she falls asleep again. If I leave then she starts getting upset and, some nights, this deteriorates into a full tantrum/panic of crying and shouting. I have noticed that sometimes she has called me and when I get there, maybe 10 - 20 seconds later, she has already fallen back to sleep or never really was awake at all.

Again, she is really apologetic and wants to fix this but I am afraid that this is an ingrained habit now. In hopes of breaking the cycle i have suggested to her this morning that we change things up a bit ..... in place of her calling me, she will have to walk through to my room and tap me on the shoulder so that I can take her back to bed and get her back to sleep. My thought here is that this will require more effort on her part, change a routine and perhaps reverse the seemingly deteriorating situation. It could backfire however and her getting out of bed will result in her being more awake and so harder to settle back down.

As always ... your advice is appreciated.
Gavin

 

[GavinH]

Oh ... she has night lights but i have not tried the radio idea. I'm looking at redecorating her room with posters and items of her choosing to try to remove any "fears" she may have but i cant see that a pretty poster or nice paint will keep her asleep.

 

[parentastic]

Hello Gavin,

I really do not think your case is related to a bad "habit" or anything like that. You have made it quite clear that you have a good routine and this routine works well; that your daughter feels now secure to go to sleep in her routine and that the process goes well.

I also think it may deepen the problem now when she feels the pressure from not waking you up at night and feels all apologetic afterward.
I told you how anxiety and secure attachment works in an earlier post: it's her anxiety that causes her to wake up, and the impact it has on you creates anxiety for her. It's not a good spiral.

I think what is going on is unconscious.
She wakes up <I>in the middle of the night</I>, several times a night?
What this tells me is that she is not getting her sleep at all. That something unconscious is kicking her out or preventing deep sleep. A child, growing up normally, having normal activities and being tired normally, at her age, does not wake up that easily unless something deeper than a habit is going on. Especially after several weeks like that: she must be exhausted too,to have a fragmented sleep.

So I think you can do 2 two things at this point:

a) Find a WORKING SOLUTION. Stop worrying about her "habits" and "enabling" and all this fears and go to PRACTICAL solutions.
The camp bed for instance, would allow her to walk to your room ON HER OWN when she wakes up from her sleep in the middle of night and go back to sleep next to you without waking you - and right now, you need to find a solution that helps you sleep, above all. It's not going to make the problem worst, because it's not conscious anyway.
But it can help, in addition, because it will calm some of the underlying anxiety.

However, I don't think this will be enough. From what you describe:

b) Please find a psychologist and take her there.
I think there are things she is repressing or traumas inside that causes her to wake up with night terror or something like this.
A professional can help you. He can also eventually recommend a psychiatrist if needed.
Investigate also sleepwalking.