If this was your kid.......

[mom2many]

<t>how would you feel? My opinion later.<br/>
<br/>
A South Carolina valedictorian garnered wild applause after he ripped up his pre-approved speech and delivered the Lord’s prayer at his high school graduation on Saturday.<br/>
<br/>
The act was apparently in protest of the Pickens County School District’s decision to no longer include prayer at graduation ceremonies, Christian News reported. Officials said the decision was made after the district was barraged with complaints by atheist groups.<br/>
<br/>
But that didn’t stop Roy Costner IV of Liberty High School. He ripped up his graduation speech for all to see, before he started talking about his Christian upbringing, Christian News reported.<br/>
<br/>
“Those that we look up to, they have helped carve and mold us into the young adults that we are today,” he said. “I’m so glad that both of my parents led me to the Lord at a young age.”<br/>
<br/>
“And I think most of you will understand when I say…” he paused. “Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name…”<br/>
<br/>
The auditorium began to erupt with applause and cheers.</t>

 

[cybele]

Personally, if it were something one of my children chose to do I would be beyond disappointed in them. I have raised my children with the thought that religion and spirituality are deeply personal and that while it is wonderful to be proud of it and to openly discuss it, there are many places that it does not belong. Leading a prayer at a public high school graduation is one of those examples.

If it were another child, then I would simply leave the room. I feel very uncomfortable with the idea of forced participation in another faith just because someone giving a speech thinks that they have some entitlement to turn it into a prayer session without regard to the faith and practices of other people in the audience. I wouldn't kick up a fuss, just quietly remove myself and re-enter once their little entitled moment was over, maybe roll my eyes and then have a laugh about it after.


For the actual situation where it happened though, well it just smacks of Christian privilege and hopefully this young man, as he gets older is exposed to may different people of faiths, ethnicities and backgrounds that he can learn to open his eyes a little and come to understand why the school district made that decision.

I would love to read a report on it via a non-biased source (because lets be honest, 'blame the atheists' is pretty much Christian News's bread and butter) and find out if there was another reason for the bans, not that there needs to be, because public school should be a safe place for people of all faiths where they don't get another religion shoved down their throat.

In a way I don't blame this young man, I think it is sad that we still have children being raised with the belief that they have some kind of right to have their religion practiced everywhere for them, regardless of other people or other beliefs, and I think it is clear by the fact that he thought that his actions were appropriate (as did many of his peers) that they don't know much outside of their own little worlds, but hopefully, as I said before, they get out there in the world as adults and open their minds and see what life is like for others who are not part of faith that is so heavily pushed in the western world.

I have nothing against Christianity or religion, I simply think that if he were to have made his speech and tacked on "I really want to thank my parents for introducing me to God and I want to thank God for -whatever it is people thank God for-" it would have been a much more mature response.

 

[akmom]

It was in the U.S,. so he has the right to free speech and to exercise his religion. An official prayer held at graduation isn't protected by the First Amendment, but an individual speaking about their own religious convictions is. He was sharing something important to him. Good for him.

While some people may consider their religion to be very private, mainstream Christianity is tends to be very evangelical. I don't know how religious rights vary in every country, but in the U.S. we actually do have the right to practice our religion pretty much everywhere. A religious statement at graduation is very, very common.

 

[pwsowner]

Being new here, I hope my opinion doesn't cause enemies, but just remember, it is only my opinion.

If it were a child of mine, I would be proud of him for saying what mattered to him. If I were at that grad, I would probably have joined in the applause.

I understand school reasons for taking God out of school. People should not be forced to hear or believe, but people do have free will and have the right to believe if they choose to, and also have the right to express their belief if they want to.

I'm guessing that if he wrote a speech to say what he wanted, it would have included God and the school wouldn't have allowed it, so he wrote a speech they want to hear, then said what he wanted to say.

Like akmom said,
"A religious statement at graduation is very, very common."
Anyone who believes in God, wants to thank him for being with them through the school years. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[singledad]

Mmmm... I actually agree with everyone here to some extent. I think it is good when a kid stands up for what he/she believes. But I also think there is a time and place for everything.

Making a religious statement, even thanking his parents for “leading him to the Lord” etc, would be fine. Perhaps even commendable. But there is a world of difference between making a religious statement and leading a group of strangers, most likely with a range of different religious beliefs, in prayer. It’s the difference between practising your religion and effectively forcing others to practise your religion by making them join you in prayer, without warning and without their consent.

Yes, you have freedom of religion. But so does every single member of the audience and IMO, the right to freedom of religion includes the right to have your religious beliefs respected by others, whether or not they agree with them. For me, the simple test of whether or not it is ok, is to substitute the particular deity with another (Allah, Budha, their ancestors...) and asking yourself if you would still be ok with it... because if you’re not happy to be on the receiving end of similar actions from people you don’t agree with, it’s not ok.

For the record – although I believe in God, that situation would have rendered me acutely uncomfortable, and I would probably have ended up waiting outside (with Cybele).

btw - psowner, it takes a bit more than raising an opinion to make enemies on here

 

[mom2many]

psowner, we're a hardy bunch and it would take a lot to offend any of us.

I asked cause I saw this was a debate somewhere else, and I found the answers pretty interesting. The mix on here is about the mix over there. I see it a little differently.

I take the religion out of what he did. He had a pre-approved speech, which means he turned it into the school, they approved it, when he accepted it he agreed to the schools 'terms' so to speak.

These graduation speeches are never solely about the graduate, he is a representative of the whole class, representing the whole class. What if he stood up there and gave a speech about abortion, doesn't matter where he stands, would that still be okay?

He represented his belief, and I'm sure a few more peoples at the school but did he represent the class as a whole? I'm not against a prayer in school, although I believe in separation of church and state, our PS does it, it's a heavily religious community, and I use that time to people watch, but had my child done that I would not be happy. The very fact is they let themselves down by not honoring the commitment they agreed with prior to giving the speech.

Just because we have freedom of speech, doesn't mean we should always use it. There is a time and a place for everything. Take a look at Westborough, sure they can say what they want, when they want, but should they? (extreme end of things I know)

 

[pancras]

He was not exercising his Constitutional freedom of religion or freedom of speech, since his freedom in both those spheres were legitimately limited by the school policy requiring review of the speech. It would be not be a violation of the US Constitution for the school to punish him for his act.

As akmom points out, he was not violating the US Constitution by saying a prayer since he was not engaging in a act by the state. A public school is part of the state, but this was not a official act of the school.

He was engaging in civil disobedience. Thoreau wrote a famous essay on civil disobedience after refusing to pay a tax in protest of the Mexican war and going to jail for it. Thoreau was not exercising a Constitutional right to not pay the tax.

He was protesting the establishment clause of the Constitution or the Supreme Court's interpretation of it. I don't agree with his views on the matter. But I have arguably engaged in civil disobedience in the past.

But I suppose one could say he was exercising freedom of speech and religion based on Thoreau's idea that the individual is above the government and the Constitution.

 

[IADad]

I applaud his fortitude to be proud of his beliefs. I have a problem with the"most of you will understand"phrase.....that smacks a little of a notion of "we Christians run things around here and no matter what the rules are we know the truth." Now, i dint know if that was his intent or not, but I think a statement of"someday i hope or schools are a place where students, all students, can express their beliefs along with learning, exploring and honing their shills" a statement like that would have been more thought provoking and useful.

 

[Mom2all]

Okay.. I watched it and his interview and I get it more now. I'm good with it. I get there is a separation of church and state and fully believe in it.. however.. the farewell speech he was giving is supposed to represent what they as a class have been through, over come, and accomplished and send them off with a good feeling. They, as a school, had been through the ringer this year over prayers in school. Not, I believe from students but other organizations, simply because the school board prayed before meetings. If his speech represented what the majority of the school felt.. then he done his job. The applause sounded like it did.

 

[pwsowner]

These graduation speeches are never solely about the graduate, he is a representative of the whole class, representing the whole class. What if he stood up there and gave a speech about abortion, doesn't matter where he stands, would that still be okay?

Good point.

Maybe if the school allowed God to be part of the speech, he would have put together something with a good balance.

 

[ElliottCarasDad]

Yeah, just don't mix "free speech" with "accepted speech".

It was in the U.S,. so he has the right to free speech and to exercise his religion. An official prayer held at graduation isn't protected by the First Amendment, but an individual speaking about their own religious convictions is. He was sharing something important to him. Good for him.

 

[cybele]

Good point.

Maybe if the school allowed God to be part of the speech, he would have put together something with a good balance.

Was he actually not allowed to mention God though?

I took it to mean that there wasn't a formalised part of the graduation ceremony for prayer any longer, not that any mention of religion was banned.

 

[mom2many]

Was he actually not allowed to mention God though?

I took it to mean that there wasn't a formalised part of the graduation ceremony for prayer any longer, not that any mention of religion was banned.

This was my understanding also.

If this was the case he could have just added a little bit to his over all speech, instead of throwing the whole thing out and doing only the lords prayer.

 

[cybele]

Regardless, I think to lead a large group who are not there for a religious gathering in a religion-specific prayer is simply poor behaviour.

You can argue free speech until the cows come home, but with every right comes responsibility, and the assumption that everyone wants to partake in a prayer from YOUR religion that they may or may not be a part of at a general event is disrespectful.

Also, like SD said, had it been any other religion, he wouldn't be applauded the way he has, and he would have a lot less people defending him. That is a HUGE problem.

It makes me think of when kids learn the phrase 'free speech' and scream silly nonsense at each other like "YOURE UGLY! HAHA FREE SPEECH!"

 

[mom2many]

It makes me think of when kids learn the phrase 'free speech' and scream silly nonsense at each other like "YOURE UGLY! HAHA FREE SPEECH!"

I LOL'd Cole is currently in this phase, drives me insane!


P.S this was also my thought

 

[akmom]

Now, i dint know if that was his intent or not, but I think a statement of"someday i hope or schools are a place where students, all students, can express their beliefs along with learning, exploring and honing their shills" a statement like that would have been more thought provoking and useful.

Yes, adult maturity would have made for a classy speech. I think we have to account for age and life experiences when we make these judgments. He's a teen who JUST graduated from high school.

As for the shredding of the approved speech... we will never know the behind-the-scenes battle that occurred when he tried to submit what he wanted. Some school administrations are very supportive and flexible, and some aren't. I had a principal who would remove articles from the high school newspaper that challenged her policies. Or she'd make us gut it until it was something she liked. I'm just going to guess that they weren't being very accommodating, and he felt pressured into a speech that really muffled what he wanted to say. A good administration would have sat him down and explained their concerns, and tried to come to a compromise with him that satisfied everyone. Kind of like people on this board are trying to do.

I don't think reciting a prayer is equivalent to "silly nonsense" in the matter of exercising free speech. He was actually referring to real struggles his classmates experienced with policy changes, and that's meaningful no matter what side a person is on. And no one is obligated to chant along.

 

[cybele]

Or the school did do that and he was just being a brat.

Happens a fair bit with many 17yr olds. They know everything and everyone is out to get them and they don't want to acknowledge anyone other than themselves.

We don't know which one it was, or neither, what we do know was that there was a policy change to make the graduation inclusive of all people, and he went against that in an act of defiance, he did something disrespectful, and I don't understand how anyone can support ostracism of others.

 

[Xero]

I agree completely with Cybele, I couldn't really add onto what she said at all. I too would have walked out. I am a little more sensitive about it though, I might even be a little mad. Hard to say cause I wasn't there.

Anyway I also agree a little bit with M2M, just the fact that he worked so hard to be valedictorian and then went and made a fool out of himself like that by defying his administration all because of a personal belief would disappoint me. It might have been cute to a lot of people at the time, but when he tries to get a job in the future and everybody remembers him as the kid on the news who caused a big scene that was honestly quite irrational as well as defiant to authority, well that might just put him at a disadvantage.

And yes, freedom of speech, but so what? No one is asking if the kid is going to jail, this isn't about legal or illegal, it's about right and wrong.

 

[singledad]

Ok. I've done some googling on this speech, and according to what I've read, PRAYER was axed from the ceremony. I couldn't find anything that created the impression that all mention of God was banned. And he decided to devote his entire speech to God, and ended by reciting the Lords Prayer. It reminded me of another debate we had around this time last year, about another valedictorian who chose to deliver his speech in Spanish. He was slated for "excluding" other students, even though the majority of his community were Spanish speakers. At the time, I didn't understand the uproar, but it was explained to me here:

Graduation is a huge part of a teenagers life, and missing out on that speech, which is part of their graduation which they earned the right to hear and understand, seems wrong to me. In my opinion it's not about one group deserving more respect, it's about the fact that those who understood English only were left out due to the school's refusal to accomodate

So I thought I got it. It's important to the kids, and it's important to deliver a speech which everyone can understand, related to, and get something from.

And yet now, the very same people are defending this kid for delivering a speech which excluded non-Christians, gave them nothing they could relate to, and did not give them anything to take forward into their lives. And now it's ok?

I wonder if that boy paused for one moment, and though how his speech would be received by Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, etc students, and what they would be able to get out of it. Or did they simply not matter to him?

 

[TabascoNatalie]

I'd be proud.
Given the history -- prayer at the occasion used to be a tradition in the past -- i guess many people still feel strongly about it, regardless of somebody being "uncomfortable".
Christianity has become something "politically incorrect" lately, yet if he was a Muslim, he'd have full support to do as he pleases.