Imposing fines on parents...

[julia_ottawa]

What do you think?

http://www.ncpc.org/topics/bullying/strategies/strategy-holding-parents-accountable-for-their-children-s-behavior[/url]

I believe that the parents of a bully should be fined for their child's behaivoir

 

[Mom2all]

For bullying.. I really believe it needs to do more with the school. Most of that happens in their care when parents aren't there to do anything about it. Victims normally don't go home and tell, and parents of bullies certainly aren't being told by their children. While our children are in the school, the school is acting in place of the parent. I believe that there should be a zero tolerance on any type of harassment. If the teachers who witness most of it attack the problem where it happens, I think that we'd see a lot of changes. And if we as parents know its happening, step in and stop it. Problem is, most of its overlooked for the "kids will be kids" attitude.

I had 2 instances of bullying when my oldest were at school. The first was for my son in 2nd or 3rd grade. He waited months to tell me and only then because his attitude had changed and I sat him down and refused to let him get up until he talked. For him it was one kid who was constantly saying things out loud in class about him "stinking, ugly, dumb, red hair freckled faced, etc" and the teacher would simply call the aggressors name to stop the talking and then go on with class. Damage was done though, all the kids had laughed at him already. I had a talk with her and then I called the boys father. Together we made it stop.. or I should say his father was wonderful in helping me.

And my daughter was harassed by a girl in the locker room in middle school for several days. She is different from most children and came home immediately and told me. Through pushing her coach to intervene and letting him know that I was holding him personally responsible for her safety while she was in his class... it stopped that next day. I think that thats how the work has to get done.. every one of us has to say this isn't going to happen and mean it for it to change.

And then I had my oldest son, who was quite a runt, get his butt beat by the neighborhood bully almost every day he went out to play. If I turned my back, he came back with a busted lip or nose and once even holding his tooth in his hand. That was trickier because no amount of talking to his uninterested parents helped. They just acted like "boys will be boys" and let him go on terrorizing the neighborhood. I couldn't afford to move.. so I taught my runt of a son to fight. Day in and out we practiced boxing. One day.. Adam finally kicked his ass and he left him alone after that. Not the best choice (I'm sure I'll hear about it) but at the time the only one I felt we had.

 

[cybele]

I think it used to be primarily in schools, I think that has completely changed now and it is about 50-50.

Kids are so "connected" now, everything has a way to interact with others on it, meaning that kids who want to bully can now do so from the comfort of their own bedroom.

We've had it all, mostly with Dita. At school there was the physical violence, the letters slid into her locker about how she should kill herself, the exclusion, the stolen property, photos taken of her and photocopied with "dyke" written on them and hung up all around the school, pushed off the platform onto the railway tracks at the train station after school, girls accusing her of sexually assaulting them "with her eyes" because she looked in their direction, adult magazines were purchased with pictures of naked women cut out and stuck to the front of her locker door with "bet you want to fuck this" written on them.

At home, she got text messages sent via a text message sending website, so the number was anonymous, telling her to kill herself, among some very disgusting and explicit things that I am not going to repeat, at one point she was getting up to 20 messages a day along these lines. She got emails from email addresses she didn't know, really generic ones like "icecream_love12" or whatever, where they were able to get a little more lengthy and send very long descriptions of how she should kill herself, and so on.

And this was long before facebook, blogs, and so on.

Same deal with the younger kids, Lux's friend has received threatening messages via the chat function on her Nintendo DS, again, along similar lines about how she should kill herself (this time, because she is Muslim).

It's not just at school any more.

On to the actual topic, to do believe that if a parent has been made aware that their child is bullying and they choose to brush it off with
"They're just expressing themselves"
"Oh, boys will be boys"
"Oh, that's just the hormones"
"Not my little angel, he/she ate all his/her dinner last night (or something else equally irrelevant)"
"Well, it's the child they are picking on's fault for being different, they should go and be more normal, then people won't pick on them"
"They're too young to understand that what they are doing is wrong"
"The child they are picking on is just a bit soft"
"My child isn't a bully, you're a bully for saying my child is bullying, I am going to sue this school"

I believe there should be some type of action taken. I don't know about fines, because I don't think that teaches anything, I think the parents should have to attend some type of session on the impact of bullying, and how to manage a child is is a bully. How to get them to do that, I have no idea.

On the flip side, when Sunny was in Prep (5 years old, first year of school here) she and a couple of other girls were picking on a little girl who was albino, because of the way she looked. I do know that one of the other parents took the "she is too young to understand" approach and just let it slide, but there was no way I was ever going to let it slide and we had some very lengthy discussions about why we don't do that, she had to write her an apology letter and I told her teacher to let me know if it ever came up again. It did and there was a punishment straight away. Not a problem since. I can also tell you that the little girl whose mother brushed it off got to grade 6 and was throwing other kid's bags up in trees, pulling pants down and STILL picking on the girl with albinism.

Parents are responsible for stopping it, as are schools, but in the end it boils down to parents.

 

[singledad]

I have mixed feelings about this. It sounds great the first time you read it. After all, discipline should begin and end with the parents, right?

But I don't think its that simple. I think back to myself as a teenager - delinquent would probably have been a good description. My parents would have been among the first to be fined. You can bet your ass, both my bio-father and my foster father would have beat the crap out of me for costing them money, which would probably have just made me act out worse. Rinse and repeat. You get the picture...

I saw a study once that proved that the majority of bullies come from dysfunctional homes. So, will these families suddenly sort out their dysfunction if they get fined? I doubt it.

I fully agree that more should be done about bullying, and that involving the parents are key. I also understand that sometimes people have the attitude that "boys will be boys". I just don't think that implementing any one-size-fits-all policy will be a viable solution.

 

[julia_ottawa]

"Not the best choice (I'm sure I'll hear about it) but at the time the only one I felt we had."

Actually, I would support that. With bullying the worst thing is that a child feels completely helpless and unprotected. If a child can stand for himself, it boosts his or her self-confidence and makes him less a victim of a bully.

The most important thing though teach not to start a fight.

 

[julia_ottawa]

"I saw a study once that proved that the majority of bullies come from dysfunctional homes. So, will these families suddenly sort out their dysfunction if they get fined? I doubt it. "

I believe, it has a lot to do with some sort of domination issues. But it is hard to say for sure, of course.

 

[julia_ottawa]

@cybele, it is a horrible story. How is Dita right now?

I was bullied a lot as a child, and I was not a quite nice girl, I fought, I gave my abusers nice black eyes. I was taking horseback riding lessons and at some point started to feel that if I can control a huge animal, I can control a bully. My position was "Never be scared, never run, fight back"... but it was long before internet. The internet allows one side to feel more powerful, and another - more helpless.

Now, something makes a bully feel really good after an act of harassment was committed. And it might be different from a person to a person - like a drug. I do not know if a fine will help for sure, but we are talking about money and there are lots of things that can be done with money. This money can fund support lines for victims, for example. Or, paid directly to a victim, can help to fund his or her education. You pick, guys

 

[Mom2all]

Cybele... How horrible. I know you had to be out of your mind worried and mad. Of course I've heard of cyber bullying but it did not cross my mind here because it hasn't happened to mine... yet. Isn't the world hard enough for our kids not to have some mean jack-ass acting harasser after them to add to it? I'd encourage parents to call the police for harassment if it happened like that.. and then.. they'd get called a rat or a snitch. How unfair. Why can't parents teach their children compassion like we work on table manners? I'm just not sure.

Here's a funny story though. I tried to teach mine to protect people instead of joining in. I used spider man's quote.. "With great power comes great responsibility" all the time and pushed that one kind word or a smile could change the world for someone and not to get involved with picking on someone.. but to step in and help. Went so far as to buy my poor daughter the ugly baby doll with freckles and glasses and talk about how she needed love like the others.

As they got older, I told them stories about kids in school that I had walked by and not stepped in for that were picked on. I didn't join in, but didn't speak up ether. I told them so many times how this person or that one crossed my mind from time to time and if I could go back I'd apologize for not being a better person back then. I told them to go through life not having regrets like me... flash forward.....

My daughter and son were 12 and 11.. we broke down on the road and this nice couple stopped and towed us home. The girl looked familiar but I couldn't place her. After spending about 30 minute chatting in the front yard she tells me that she knows me... her name was Martha.. and we went to school together. She'd lost about 100 pounds, got contacts and braces and there she was... a name that my children had heard me mention in my regret stories a million times...

TO which.. my son's mouth falls open.. and my daughters eyes light up and she says... "Mom.. here's your chance! Go ahead.. tell her! "

Awkward.

I did apologize to Martha. She was gracious and wonderful and told my children that I was never her tormentor... but that it had been hard for her in school. Since then.. I have found 2 more women and gave them my apology too. One is now a pretty good friend.

 

[akmom]

For bullying.. I really believe it needs to do more with the school. Most of that happens in their care when parents aren't there to do anything about it.

I agree that the school needs to be vigilant and act initially against bullying. But kids learn most of their behavior at home. I think it's important to call the parents in immediately and have that conversation with the child, parent(s) and instructor about what happened, what is expected, and what kinds of consequences will ensue if it continues. That way, there is no question about what happened, no way for kids to hide it from their parents, and a clear opportunity for parents to reinforce expectations at home. A lot of kids do behave differently around their parents, and would modify their behavior if their parents were kept in the loop. I think fines would be useful for those parents who don't care or are hopelessly mired in excuses. They'd be an insult to those who do care. But in the end, I think it does need to be the responsibility of the parents. There's only so much the school can do to notice and address bullying, with a 30:1 student-teacher ratio. Parents absolutely need to be involved long-term.

I think the parents should have to attend some type of session on the impact of bullying, and how to manage a child is is a bully.

I can see this being a Strike 2 option. Strike 1 is a meeting at the school, Strike 2 is the training you describe (at parents' expense), and Strike 3 is a fine. But I would hope there would be some wiggle room for circumstances. What about children with temporary guardians? What about foster kids? Shall we impose a fine on their guardians for behaviors that most likely existed before they took custody, and with which they are probably doing their best? Shall we force them to attend a course that the foster system has probably already given them?

Went so far as to buy my poor daughter the ugly baby doll with freckles and glasses and talk about how she needed love like the others.

I have to double thumbs-up this. What a way to teach! I bet your children are kind and loving.

 

[cybele]

Mom2all, that is an amazing story. What a co-incidence, but what a fantastic situation to make a point to your kids kids.

@cybele, it is a horrible story. How is Dita right now?

Yeah, she's fine, she chairs a support group for gay teens now, which is really cool.

Of course there were times when she wasn't fine, as an example of where bullying like that can take someone, she almost OD'ed on over the counter meds when she was 14, it took a lot of counselling and a lot of work to get her back up, but since then she has really thrived and really made a point to help other kids who are in the situation that she was in. She's a really resilient girl. I have so much respect for her, I don't know if I would have been able to cope with all that (because that isn't the whole story, there were problems coming from my extended family too, which only made things worse.)

I'd encourage parents to call the police for harassment if it happened like that.. and then.. they'd get called a rat or a snitch. How unfair. Why can't parents teach their children compassion like we work on table manners? I'm just not sure.

Ours went to the police, initially, but the school had their own way of "dealing" with the problem, which was for teachers to pull down signs they saw, and say "Stop that" every now and then. Which really didn't help. We were able to get the anonymous text websites blocked on her phone.

After 3 boys from her school raped her ("trying to fix her" they called it) police obviously got very heavily involved and arrests were made, the three boys were put into juvenile detention, because it was charged as a hate crime their records will not be expunged once they turn 18, which they all would be now, and the police then had to go to the school and explain how they could be charged with harassment in the hate crime category.

After all that though, it was too hard for her to go back, so both Dita and Azriel moved schools, and since then it has been fantastic.


On the topic of teaching a child compassion, it's hard if the driving force behind the bullying is taught at home. In Dita's case, it wasn't the whole school against her, a lot of the kids supported her, however they turned a blind eye because they didn't want to be targets either, it really was only a group of about 5 or 6 who did this, it just became this fixation for them and knowing a couple of the parents it doesn't surprise me, teenagers are pretty dumb in general and they interpret things in weird ways and if you are teaching hate and intolerance at home, chances are a 13yr old is going to take that to some type of ridiculous level.

Same goes with Lux's friend, they found out whose DS it was, because it was done at "Holiday Club" which is daycare for older kids during the school holidays, and when the girl who did it's Dad was confronted, apparently he started ranting about illegal immigrants, terrorists and bombings. Which has nothing to do with a 10yr old girl who was born in Australia to parents who were both born in Australia.

Sometimes the parents are the source of the bullying, and when someone has prejudice ingrained in them like that, it would be very difficult to do something about the child's behaviour. I live it, my parents are hateful people, I truly believe that they are a lost cause, I've tried, but there's nothing that can be done about them. My point being that when I was a child, I honestly believed that anyone who wasn't Roman Catholic was the devil and that little anglican Sandra who lived next door was trying to tempt me into hell with her offers of playing hopscotch or elastics together. Obviously now, I know that's crap and that she was a little girl who lived next door to another little girl the same age as her who she wanted to play with, because that is happy and healthy behaviour but parents have a huge effect on how kids see the world, and if the parents are teaching hate, that's all the kid is going to know.

 

[ikon99]

Fine parents of the bullier? How will that help the bullier? I was bullied at school. Beat up constantly. My self esteam was poor, my self worth was low and I cowarded in the presence of my tormenters. They saw me as weak and sought me out and often beat me to a pulp. I came from a well adjusted family, a mom and dad and sisters. Not too dysfunctional. They found out about the bullying, built up my confidence, gave me a sense of high self worth and taught me to stand up for myself. You see, I was the one with the problem, I was the one who needed "fixed". Once my training was underway and well seated in my psyche. The bullies stopped. Can't fix them, can't fix the bullies, we have no controle over them.

 

[Testing]

Mom2all: Cybele... How horrible. I know you had to be out of your mind worried and mad. Of course I've heard of cyber bullying but it did not cross my mind here because it hasn't happened to mine... yet. Isn't the world hard enough for our kids not to have some mean jack-ass acting harasser after them to add to it? I'd encourage parents to call the police for harassment if it happened like that.. and then.. they'd get called a rat or a snitch. How unfair. Why can't parents teach their children compassion like we work on table manners? I'm just not sure.

I do think that all good parents do teach this. However, the culture of disrespect and dishonor of others in which we live works against us. It's everywhere. Books, music, television, movies, video games. Sometimes even church. Parents are a small voice in that roar.

Here's a funny story though. I tried to teach mine to protect people instead of joining in. I used spider man's quote.. "With great power comes great responsibility" all the time and pushed that one kind word or a smile could change the world for someone and not to get involved with picking on someone.. but to step in and help. Went so far as to buy my poor daughter the ugly baby doll with freckles and glasses and talk about how she needed love like the others.

I like that! I would do similar things, and have many similar conversations with my kids about standing up for others and befriending those who are marginalized.

As they got older, I told them stories about kids in school that I had walked by and not stepped in for that were picked on. I didn't join in, but didn't speak up ether. I told them so many times how this person or that one crossed my mind from time to time and if I could go back I'd apologize for not being a better person back then. I told them to go through life not having regrets like me... flash forward.....

My daughter and son were 12 and 11.. we broke down on the road and this nice couple stopped and towed us home. The girl looked familiar but I couldn't place her. After spending about 30 minute chatting in the front yard she tells me that she knows me... her name was Martha.. and we went to school together. She'd lost about 100 pounds, got contacts and braces and there she was... a name that my children had heard me mention in my regret stories a million times...

TO which.. my son's mouth falls open.. and my daughters eyes light up and she says... "Mom.. here's your chance! Go ahead.. tell her! "

Awkward.

I did apologize to Martha. She was gracious and wonderful and told my children that I was never her tormentor... but that it had been hard for her in school. Since then.. I have found 2 more women and gave them my apology too. One is now a pretty good friend

I like you.

 

[Testing]

cybele: Kids are so "connected" now, everything has a way to interact with others on it, meaning that kids who want to bully can now do so from the comfort of their own bedroom.

Yes, technology certainly has a dark side and bad people will find it.

We've had it all, mostly with Dita. At school there was the physical violence, the letters slid into her locker about how she should kill herself, the exclusion, the stolen property, photos taken of her and photocopied with "dyke" written on them and hung up all around the school, pushed off the platform onto the railway tracks at the train station after school, girls accusing her of sexually assaulting them "with her eyes" because she looked in their direction, adult magazines were purchased with pictures of naked women cut out and stuck to the front of her locker door with "bet you want to fuck this" written on them.

I'm sorry about how your daughter was treated. No one should have to be treated this way, ever, for any reason whatsoever. That is just wrong in so many ways. What's wrong with people.

Same deal with the younger kids, Lux's friend has received threatening messages via the chat function on her Nintendo DS, again, along similar lines about how she should kill herself (this time, because she is Muslim).

Wow...the DS? An innocent child's game, I thought. Sorry this happened to your child.

It's not just at school any more.

On to the actual topic, to do believe that if a parent has been made aware that their child is bullying and they choose to brush it off with
"They're just expressing themselves"
"Oh, boys will be boys"
"Oh, that's just the hormones"
"Not my little angel, he/she ate all his/her dinner last night (or something else equally irrelevant)"
"Well, it's the child they are picking on's fault for being different, they should go and be more normal, then people won't pick on them"
"They're too young to understand that what they are doing is wrong"
"The child they are picking on is just a bit soft"
"My child isn't a bully, you're a bully for saying my child is bullying, I am going to sue this school"

It is true that it is a rare parent indeed who will believe that their darling little angel is human and could actually do something wrong or mean. Kids have no judgement at all, and many will follow the others no matter how stupid and wrong they think it is, and no matter how smart they are.

I believe there should be some type of action taken. I don't know about fines, because I don't think that teaches anything, I think the parents should have to attend some type of session on the impact of bullying, and how to manage a child is is a bully. How to get them to do that, I have no idea.

Yes, I agree that fines wouldn't seem to do anything productive but would just make the one fined angry.

On the flip side, when Sunny was in Prep (5 years old, first year of school here) she and a couple of other girls were picking on a little girl who was albino, because of the way she looked. I do know that one of the other parents took the "she is too young to understand" approach and just let it slide, but there was no way I was ever going to let it slide and we had some very lengthy discussions about why we don't do that, she had to write her an apology letter and I told her teacher to let me know if it ever came up again. It did and there was a punishment straight away.

Good for you! I take things seriously as well. My kid once was with another kid on the playground when he was maybe 4 or 5. The other kid began making fun of some kid who showed up with a mask over his face, so my kid followed along. I called him over, and marched him right over to the mom of the kid with the face mask and made him apologize to the Mom and to the kid. The Mom was gracious and happy to explain why her kid needed to wear a mask (he was recovering from something and could not risk infection). I asked my son that if he needed to wear a mask as he was recovering from a surgery or something, would he want other kids to laugh at and mock him, and he said no.

The Mom of the other kid who was making fun refused to do this. She said her kid could not be asked to apologize until he "felt it" and he wasn't "feeling it".

Each to his own. My kid has never made fun of others since, though, and he is a teen now.

Not a problem since. I can also tell you that the little girl whose mother brushed it off got to grade 6 and was throwing other kid's bags up in trees, pulling pants down and STILL picking on the girl with albinism.

Yeah.

 

[cybele]

The Mom of the other kid who was making fun refused to do this. She said her kid could not be asked to apologize until he "felt it" and he wasn't "feeling it".

I've heard that one too. To me, it's irrelevant to the point, if the child doesn't fell it, then explain it better, then they will probably "feel it". Everyone has empathy and sympathy in them, it's just the kids don't quite know how to tap into that, so need to have it explained to them.

Or you know, even if they don't "feel it" you know, manners.

Manners are very underrated nowadays.

 

[julia_ottawa]

The whole idea of making child to say that he or she is sorry is not just to make them apologize. It has deeper phycological effect when an abuser is put in a humble position and an abused one's sense of dignity is restored at least to some level

 

[singledad]

The whole idea of making child to say that he or she is sorry is not just to make them apologize. It has deeper phycological effect when an abuser is put in a humble position and <U>an abused one's sense of dignity is restored</U> at least to some level

That is so true.

I also have to agree with cybele - if the child doesn't feel it you haven't explained it well enough. Try again.

 

[Mom2all]

I think there is a point to be made in not just making them feel sorry for it, or making them victim feel better, but in letting the aggressor know it will not be tolerated. That other people do not laugh at meanness. And to let the victim know that they are not alone. People will stand up for them.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

I disagree with fines.

1) in whose pocket will it land?
2) who is to guarantee that the system won't be used for profiteering? Something like parking fines.

As bullying is a very serious issue, i agree with Mom2all, that it is more the responsibility of the school. Yet the schools usually like to sweep it under the carpet. Howerever, we live in 2012. It is possible to do a lot of things to protect your child. First of all, collect the evidence. Online bullying is quite easy to track. Also, there are many organizations who work against racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. they can kick up a big stink if needed, also there is the press.

 

[tadamsmar]

John Rosemond is my second least-favorite parenting "expert", just behind James Dobson.

But even Rosemond had at least one good idea. File a complaint against the bully with the cops.

Third, if bullying is physical, then the bully has broken the law (which applies to children as well as adults), and parents have a taxpayer right to file a complaint with the police, and the police have an obligation to investigate and determine whether or not to charge the perpetrator with a crime.

Read more at http://www.arcamax.com/parents/johnrosemond/s-1189225#ZJAq70GbQypjv5wd.99[/url]

Rosemond points out that the parents of a bully are almost always also bullies and the school authorities have already probably found it impossible to deal with the problem. (This might be an overgeneralization, but I think this is often the case.)

Of course, this only covers physical bullying.

 

[ikon99]

But even Rosemond had at least one good idea. File a complaint against the bully with the cops.http://

I agree, file a complaint w the police. This will put the bullier and the parents of the bullier on the cops radar. Most cops patrol the same beat and become familiar with the community and a bullier may soon become a teen with a conduct disorder.