Initial stages, i guess, of divorce......

[evilbrent]

<SIZE size="75">(Apologies for the long rambly post out of the blue - I guess it's cathartic to write like this where I'm almost anonymous.)</SIZE>

The variables:
<LIST type="decimal">

1. 
   <LI>
2. I still love her and want to be with her - but;</LI>
   <LI>
3. she literally hasn't let me touch her since february (and, now that i think of it, really there has been a gaping hole in our love life for 2 years) because;</LI>
   <LI>
4. her depression and weight gain (she's morbidly obese now) don't allow her to feel good about herself.</LI>
   <LI>
5. Even though we've been together for 10 years, have two kids and a huge mortgage together;</LI>
   <LI>
6. I'm not sure that I'm able to spend the rest of my life on a woman who doesn't love me the way I love her - the way she used to.</LI>

</LIST>I really think that I'm leaning towards just swallowing my pride, my hopes for true happiness and just continuing to live with her for the children's sake.

I don't hate her, we don't fight, in fact we get along quite well. We make a good mum/dad pairing, even though we're no longer really a husband/wife couple.

What I want to talk about - is it possible? can you raise healthy happy kids when mum and dad have zero affection or physical interaction? don't they pick up on that? is this a viable option? can it work?

I've got a friend who says that he dearly wishes that his parents had broken up - they had a very weird non-abusive but non-friendly dynamic going on, which may have had something to do with it - that the worst part of growing up for him was living with this underlying lack of real love in the house.

Basically: I think we're both trapped in this relationship because of the kids and, now, the mortgage. My wife doesn't work, so there's no way that we could keep this house if we split - there's no savings or anything, in fact the first thing my wife inherit from me, financially, would be half of our credit card debt. Our kids would go from living in one huge stable 3 bedroom house to a succession of crummy 2 bedroom flats, I'd probably really be living with my parents at first, 30km away... it would just suck.

I've been going around and around and around those 5 points at top now, almost every waking moment for the last 6 months... I can only think of three possible outcomes: A) divorce, B )status quo or C) she comes back to me - and I'm honestly unsure about how to weigh up those three outcomes.

Obviously A) is emotionally and financially the most devastating - although it's forseeably the best option in the long run: you never know.

I see B) as being the worst possible long-term outcome, wasting my life away. It's petty, to want to have orgasms and enjoy sex, right? Surely I can just learn to live without it, right? But you only get so many trips around the sun before they cancel your ticket - and I've gotten addicted to feeling wanted/needed after 10 years of marriage that I can't cope with the constant daily rejection, with this ever present confirmation that my closeness is not wanted. As Neil Finn sang "Do you want presence or need my health?" - the answer I get is a clear 'No. No I don't.'

In this scenario, all I am is a paycheck to her. I'm just a way for her to avoid her fear of rejection, her fear of having to perform in the real world for real money: she got her teaching degree last year but so far the closest that she's come to applying for a job is that - it's basically August now - she has successfully applied for a licence. She's terrified of getting a job because of the pressure she'd be under - this is part of her mental illness, an intense phobia of criticism or judgement.

Now, in scenario C) I'm honestly ok with that. I love her, we're married, and as hard as it to get by without that second income, the fact is that we do get by. I've thrown my lot in with hers and I'd rather her not have to go through unnecessary pain along the way. I make ok money and we have a manageable lifestyle - it really is true that "All you need is love."...

...but we're not IN scenario c). We're in scenario B), where all I am is a paycheck to her, and all she is to me is free child-care.

I long to be touched. I long to have her enjoy being touched. I long to just make some joke about sex and have her smile in agreement with me rather than grimace as if I'm commiting workplace sexual harrasment - you know that secret world, that shared naughtiness, which lovers inhabit?? I long to be caught by surprise, to be amazed at her love for me. I long to be wrapped around her little finger as she plays with me, teasing and hinting, and then, later, when the kids are in bed asleep _releases me_. I long to be kissed by her. I long to be <I>welcomed </I>home when I get home from work. I long to be lovingly embraced when I leave for any period of time. I long for her to sit me down and, patiently, casually, explain to me how deeply she loves me and couldn't live without me.

If I have to be alone, I'd rather be by myself.

----------------

I go through all of that; I work out how unfair all this is for me, how hard-done-by I am, how unlucky I've become... and I always come back to #3 on the list - maybe I'm bound to live with her through her depression. Maybe her depression IS my problem. We're married now. Sure, she's a 'dud', but she became a 'dud' AFTER I promised to live with her no matter what. Maybe this is just some really awful 'what' that I have to live through...

I really don't know.

Which is why I think I'm leaning towards just going with B) status quo. It's cheapest. It causes the least drama. I don't have to go house-hunting. I don't have to think about paying for child-care. I don't have to uproot my children.

I guess I really should add:

6) I canNOT live without my children. This is an impossible thought to me. I'd rather suffer just about anything than my absence from their life. I recently spent 13 days in China, and it was deeply upsetting for me to have to spend so many hours so far from them.

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Where we stand now is basically at an impasse. Both of us know full well about her extreme dislike of being touched in any way. Both of us know that there's nothing I can change in my life to change this: I don't smoke, drink or gamble. I'm not angry or violent. I'm not lazy. I'm not without ambition. I'm not disrespectful or unkind. We both know that the best thing, for both of us, would be for her her to lose 30 kg (ie 60lb, 1/3 of her body weight) and to get her head straight - but losing weight is impossible for her when she has this history of blah blah blah and counselling costs money and drugs don't work.

She has an appointment for a counsellor in August. I hope we can afford it. I suppose it's a start. <SIZE size="75">(Or a last-gasp. Please keep it a secret, but I guess there's a 4th scenario D) where she successfully commts suicide. She botched it about 20 months ago swallowing an entire packet of her anti-depression medication and a bottle of champagne. No note. We've never really talked about it.</SIZE>)

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So I guess what I'm asking is: is it ok for me to put my children's happiness ahead of my own? Is it really ok to let myself get sucked down into my wife's depression just because she's my wife? Is it really ok to raise children in a loveless marriage?

 

[Trina]

Is there truly no hope left? Have you looked into counseling or ways to help your wife and rekindle the spark between the two of you? Has she been to a doctor concerning her depression and weight gain? Has she tried counseling and/or meds to control her depression? Personally, short of abuse, I consider divorce as the very last option, and only after nothing else worked to save the marriage. I hope you and your wife are able to work things out.

 

[Sirk]

is it ok for me to put my children's happiness ahead of my own?

I think that's a requirement of good parenting.

Is it really ok to let myself get sucked down into my wife's depression just because she's my wife?

no.

Is it really ok to raise children in a loveless marriage?

You took vows to be with her for the rest of your life. Not just till warm fuzzies were gone.
I think the love part comes and goes. If she's depressed, get her some help. (Which sounds like you're trying, but she wasn't seeing someone right after her suicide attempt?) Cook healthy meals. Invite her to go on a walk.

I would only say divorce if you think she's a danger to the children and you were willing to fight for full custody.

 

[Dadu2004]

Wow Brent...that's alot going through your mind right now. Is she interested at all in counseling? It sounds to me as if she could use some professional help. If truly she has depression (diagnosed), then she needs to be on mediaction and seeking professional treatment. The good news is that if your insurance doens't cover it, you can find places that work on a sliding scale based on your pay.

Brother, do what you can to save your marraige. I've been through a divroce, and the outcome isn't pretty. If you go through the divorce without having tried everything you can to salvage the situation, you'll kick yourself forever. You'll always be wondering, "what if I tried...." Try everything. Do everything. Get whatever help is needed. That way, if it comes to it, you can go into the divorce knowing you did whatever you could to save the marraige.

I may post more about this in a bit, when I've had time to digest your situation...hang in there friend. I'll be praying for you and your wife.

 

[evilbrent]

well - that's the thing, isn't it? you have to keep trying as long as you can.

at the moment I don't have much hope that things are going to get better, which I guess means they'll get worse eventually.

She's going to try to get counselling - really what she wants is a 6 month mountain retreat - like Biggest Loser but without the public humiliation...

 

[Dadu2004]

Is there anything that you can do to help her with that? Do they offer any sort of retreat where that can become a reality for her? Do you think that may be the root cause of her depression, thus the downfall of your marraige? Sorry, that's alot of questions.

 

[fallon]

Brent, I really hope you guys can find something to help you. It sounds like you don't want this and she probably doesn't either. ((HUGS)) for you though, I know how bad this can suck

 

[evilbrent]

She slept on the couch for the first time last night. She asked me if she wanted me to sleep in our bed and I screamed (inside my head) "Of COURSE I want you in our bed!!" but all I did was stare at her, so she just took her pillow and left.



I read a pamphlet on divorce that outlined the following apparently common flow diagram of how the emotional rollercoaster can go:

Initiator: 1) Feels guilty 2) Is friendly

Non-initiator: 3) Feels hopeful 4) Suggests reuniting or acts as if in relationship

Initiator: 5) Feels misunderstood 6) Rejects angrily Feels rejected or
ashamed (again)

This is SO what we go through - we went through all stages (except stage 1) last night when she was just trying to watch a video with me to have a couple of laughs.

Every time we laughed together at the same joke I was flushed through with a feeling like "Oh, everything's ok now, she's back to normal, we'll go to bed and make love after this", and then we'd stop laughing and I'd be left with "Oh, no it's not ok, I shouldn't be thinking about this."

It was just so painful to have to try to be her BUDDY - we've been married for almost 10 years, we've got two kids together, I've had a vasectomy for her - I'm not ready to be her pal. I don't want to be friends with her. I don't even know what it means to interact with her in a friendly positive way that isn't, somehow, an expression of our love and intimacy.

Please, am I being unreasonable here? Tell me I am. Tell me just to get my head out of my own arse. Tell me that I'm making a big deal out of nothing. It's just sex. It's just touching. It doesn't mean she doesn't love you, it doesn't mean that she doesn't care for you.

 

[Kaytee]

Brent, I don't know what type of advise would help, none really. I do hope the best for you and your family and hope your wife gets serious treatment for her depression and weight

 

[Aylimn]

It sounds as if you and her have come to a mutual understanding, if not agreement, about the sex thing. She doesn't love herself so can't accept love from you, either. But have you spoken to her about all of these things you have posted here? You and her need to have a really serious heart to heart talk, and all that you wrote here (and probably more) needs to come out.

Most attempted suicides are a cry for help, and she's made it extremely clear that she in need of help, and fast. However, at the very least, she has to be *willing* to receive the help. All of the counseling in the world won't amount to anything if she doesn't have that inner light within her that fuels the fire of change. I do hope, for her own sake as well as your family, that she can nurture this light and let it grow. There are plenty of resources out there for depression. I take it she is stay-at-home mom then? Some people can handle that kind of lifestyle happily (like myself) but others have a tough time with it because they get stuck in a rut of seeing the same four walls everyday, doing the same routine everyday, etc (like I felt for a period of time when my son was a baby). Other than the obvious thing about counseling and a heart-to-heart with yourself, she needs to really look within and figure out what *would* make her happy, and not only the weight loss. Some kind of passion for something in her life, such as a hobby, who knows? It's different for everyone. But basically, it seems like she could use some stoking of the fires of life. You can help and support her with this as much as is humanly possible, but just remember that you can't ''fix her''. She has to be willing to ''fix herself'' and you can aid her as much as you can along the way.

As for the sex aspect, don't fool yourself into trivializing that into nothing, man! That is a *very* important component of a healthy and loving relationship, and you are doing yourself a great disservice in trivializing it. It *is* important and if you are *not* getting any, and spending each night beside a warm and loving wife whom you would really like to enjoy that with, then I really can't blame you for having sex on the brain and thinking about it a lot whenever an opportunity arises. I do understand that when a person is depressed, sex is generally the last thing on their mind and is even a very unwelcome thing. I get that. But it all ties back to her getting in touch with that gaping wound that is in her soul right now, and getting to love herself again so that she can give love and accept love from you too.

I fully support the idea of sticking things out as much as you can. However, no one should be asked to live in a lifeless, loveless marriage if it's never going to change. Sure, you ''should'' spend as much time as you think it takes to improve the situation, but I wouldn't condone staying married for several years into the future, or the rest of your life even, if this sort of thing continued. It's not fair to either of you, and that includes her. If it is very evident that nothing you are doing or will do is helping her help herself, and she continues to stay in her depression, then it is pretty safe to assume that staying in the relationship would indirectly be aiding her in staying the way she is. I'm not sure if I'm wording that really well, but the idea is that ''life begins outside our comfort zones''.

I think there is some truth to the notion that you place your childrens' happiness above your own, and it can apply to a lot of things, but I don't think it should be followed in a black and white manner nor do I think it aptly applies to every situation. The saying goes, ''You can't love someone else if you don't love yourself'' and I think it is also true of happiness in the sense that if you are unhappy, despite your best efforts, it *will* make itself evident to your children in some way, as per the story you told in your first post. I personally believe that you would be doing more harm in being in a sham marriage than you would be to be true, honest, and transparent in your relationships. Kids are great at picking up on a lie, and that would be one of the biggest kinds to ''tell'' your children. Finally, I do believe that children grow up with healthy attitudes towards love when they are shown it by example. If two parents are not loving towards eachother, this sends a very negative message to children about what relationship means. Also, it sends a secondary message to them about not respecting themselves in the sense that they could learn that they should just suffer through unbearable circumstances. And the sins of the father are visited upon the son, unto the seventh generation (or something like that, heh)

Anyway, take or leave whatever of this is useful to you. The bottom line is to communicate with your wife and try as hard and as long as you can to get things sorted, and don't forget to honor yourself as well, for when you are happy, then you can be a great role model for your kids, and it sounds like they may need as much light, laughter, and happiness as they can get, because living in a house with a depressed parent is not a very nice experience at all (I know).

Best of luck, and go talk to her!

 

[Skyburning]

I screamed (inside my head) "Of COURSE I want you in our bed!!" but all I did was stare at her, so she just took her pillow and left.

I agree there are a lot of problems but I think that it would have been a step in the right direction if you HAD told her "of course!" If she is truly in a state of depression it won't even be logical to her for you to WANT her in the bed with you...JMO.

 

[evilbrent]

i'll tell you a small part of my wife's side of the story?

she's obese - a history of eating disorders and medication have led to her having a body nobody would envy. what's more, life is a constant struggle for her because she has to carry around 30 extra kilos on her tiny frame.

she's had a hard year - this year she's had endless ear infections (which is a big problem when you are a SAHM to two little squealers), she's had friend die of cancer at age 23, she's had to cope with balancing our family budget in a world of increasing prices and interest rate rises, her best friend TURNED on her (ie, she went to drop off something at her house, and her friend swore at her "What the $%#@ are you doing here?" and then cut off all connections. Bewildering.)

We live in the (poor, migrant, blue-collar) west when all our family and friends live in the east. She's completely isolated here - we have made no friends in 2 years.

She's right to feel overwhelmed - I don't blame her.

But am I being petty?

 

[LovingFather]

I hear where you are coming from and I have been there myself. The circumstances aren't exactly the same but I was also in a loveless marriage that ended in the past two years. I was willing at the time to do anything to save the marriage - counseling, family support, patience, prayer - whatever it took. The sad fact was that, like you, I married a woman who hates herself and very likely has hated herself much of her life. You need to realize that this woman's feelings toward herself (and any ambitions for a career) may never change.

I also see that this situation is way more than just an issue of feeling loved (and feeling love is truly a huge aspect of any marriage). You have a partner who is totally unwilling to work and contribute to a family that deserves a better life. Let's be honest. It's 2008 and single income families are extinct.

You work hard for yourself and your family but you have only been rewarded with more debt. You feel threatened and unsafe. Your family's security is at risk. Feeling accepted, loved and secure are primal feelings. You are trying to soften the pain by saying that maybe you can live in a loveless marriage. You are quoting the manly man of western civilization that has ruled world culture for the past 2,000 years. He's extinct too. Question yourself when you hear that voice. These feelings are not trivial.

I'm not ready to be her pal. I don't want to be friends with her. I don't even know what it means to interact with her in a friendly positive way that isn't, somehow, an expression of our love and intimacy.

The friend/husband duality is a tough one. You want things to be different but you feel betrayed by her lack of love for herself and inability to contribute to your family's betterment. Keep watching the movies but be sure tell her how you feel. Tell her that maybe this is the best way you can ride out this storm with her. Tell her where you want this marriage to go and see if a spark appears in her eye. You want her to know that you are still on her team, but she also needs to realize that she has a responsibility to the team and help make things work.

Regardless of how you feel and how hard it is for the children to experience all of this - you definitely want to give her time to try to heal and work this out. She is at the bottom of an emotional snake pit now and all she can see are the snakes. Give her support, be patient, and as hard as it is to do, reserve the physical feelings for a celebration of your true self whether it is with her, or if things don't work out - for someone else.

The choice to contribute and heal has got to be hers. Though it will require patience and work from you to see if she can do either of these. Whatever she chooses is her decision, but you also need to remember where she is coming from. Remember that a decision made by a depressed person should be given time to harvest before you can act upon it.

The reality is that there is no magic pill. Ask her what she needs to get through the day, ask her what she needs to heal - ask yourself the same things. You have been traumatized by this situation too. Be very clear about this. Let her know what you are going through. Don't be the silent, stoic, tough man. In a non-blaming way, tell her how you feel and that you want things to get better for her and for the family. The answer will appear, what ever that is, and it will very likely bring more pain before things improve. My guess is that you have already tried all of this.

How your family deals with that pain is critical. I don't recall how old your children are, but I would definitely consider their perceptions of what is happening. Having a parent who is incapable of taking care of themselves is frightening for a child.

My ex was one of those children. She suffered terribly due to her mother's addictions, self-abuse and self-hatred. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some family history on your wife's side that you may not be aware of. Sadly these issues can linger for generations, inherited by innocent children to deal with as best they can.

Do everything you can to pamper yourselves with nutritious food, exercise, rest and anything that will help you keep your head clear during this tempest. I wish for many blessings for you and your family.

 

[Trina]

Let's be honest. It's 2008 and single income families are extinct.

Totally untrue.

Brent, I'm sorry things aren't going well. I have been meaning to sit down and type a long reply but have been busy with my kids and am expecting company to arrive any time now.

 

[Skyburning]

It sounds like you understand how rough it's been for her and I don't think you are being petty. Being petty would be you just writing off the relationship without even trying to understand how she feels but it seems like you have a pretty good grasp on why she's upset.

Do you love her? It sounds like you do still love and care about her. So the next step I would take is to work on fixing her problems first, to see if it would fix yours also. Counseling sounds like it's probably out of the budget but getting started with a healthy diet at home and a little exercise can be done. I know you said you offered her to walk with you but how did you say it? I would go to her and tell her "Honey(or whatever you call her) I'd really like for you to take a walk with me. I miss spending time with you so much and I'd love to have your company right now" or something like that. Something very sweet and not too pushy. If that doesn't work the first time the next time I would say something about getting the whole family involved in something together and take your kids with you.

If she's having trouble with the finances could you have a garage sale or something? Maybe having some cash put back into house would boost her spirits a little.

Are there any places she can take the kids and try to make some friends? It's got to be hard on both of you to not have any one to talk to outside of the family. I mean I know you have PF to talk to but it's not the same as talking to something in person. Does your library have any kind of reading group for the little ones or is there a park maybe she could meet some other parents at?

I honestly don't know what I'd do in your situation. If you still love her I would truly exhaust all of your options before you consider divorce. And until you are truly to the point of needing a divorce..I'm not sure I would mention it to her. She needs to feel more secure with herself right now.

 

[AnKsMommy]

There isn't much I can say that isn't much different than what has already been posted.

I just wish you the best of luck. It sounds like you're really trying and no, I don't think you're being petty for wanting to be touched. Have you ever read "The Five Languages of Love" it talks about what different people need to feel loved. It really helped my dh and I understand each other's love styles and what we needed.

I'm glad that your wife is getting help. Sometimes its a long hard process and can take years to recover. It sounds like you're trying to support her in this.

I think that love changes all the time. I know there are times whenever I'm in that crazy head over heels in love and there are times when I have that best friend love for my dh. Love always changes. I think, like what other people said, that she can't show her love for you because she doesn't love herself. That's a huge problem for people with weight issues. They don't feel beautiful enough to understand why someone would love them.

Also, my cousins often tell me that they wished there parents would just get divorced instead of just going though the motions of pretending to be happy. They were of course older. You should always put your child's best intrest first, but if you're totally unhappy then your kids will pick up on that later.

Either way, I wish you the best, and I hope things can get worked out still.

 

[Dadu2004]

That's a great book Anks...

 

[AnKsMommy]

I always tell married people to check it out that book! I read it before I got married and told my husband my love language. He hasn't read it though *wish he would* but he says that I already show him that he's loved and do his love language naturally.

But, I've never someone that didn't find the book useful.

 

[Dadu2004]

I've read it once by myself, and now my fiance and I are reading it together. We read a chapter and discuss it. It's an incredible book and an immense help to any relationship. Communication is such a key in any relationship, and this book really helps, especially in "love communication".

 

[evilbrent]

Hi, thanks. Actually, I do have that book at home. I stole it from, of all places, the technical library here at my office - in amongst the engineering textbooks, trade journals and supplier catalogues. I've never read it though.

I don't feel that our problem is a lack of communication - we know what the problem is. My problem is that I want to have a sex-life, and her problem is that she wants to stop being a fat, depressed SAHM who's always sick stuck in the house with two kids who squeal every 30 seconds no matter how much she tells them about her constant ear infections and who spend their whole life making a mess of what she's just cleaned up...
and it's not so much that she doesn't know how to meet my needs - she just has zero inclination to do so.

[our 3 yr old's latest craze is gathering up millions things in a basket (little plastic cups, saucers, the <I>remote controls</I>) taking them <I>somewhere </I>and having a tea-party with them, leaving crap scattered everywhere when she's done. I took a photo of her bedroom last night, there was literally not a single piece of floor showing.]

Now, I'm sure that this is all normal. I'm just talking about my wife's state of mind. She doesn't want to be DOING this anymore, she doesn't have the energy for it. I don't blame her, it sounds awful.

----

we've been having some very open conversations, which has been good - but I don't feel like there's really any progress. I feel like we're not so much going around in circles but just that we've reached a certain situation and we're really really stuck.

Basically, for me, on my half, I'm not going to tell her until after she's started her therapy this week (8 week wait) that I'm fed up and that I won't live next year the way I lived this year. I don't want to give her an ultimatum, that's hardly sexy, but I need her to understand that it's entirely in her court now - our 10th Anniversary is coming up in January, and if that's a heart-breaking experience for me then I'm going to basically ask her to leave - to get a job and just go. I want to give her as much time as she needs to come to her senses - to come back to me - but I'm not going to grow old waiting for her. If I'm going to be lonely then I'd rather be alone.

I'm going to wait until after she's talked to her therapist so that hopefully she can concentrate on her own problems, rather than stressing over mine.