Yeah, it was such a horrible situation. It was before Eli was born though, and we went through a loooot. It was like a year and a half ago, it's all over now. We are actually an awesome couple, once we both did a little growing up and a lot of reality-checking. We had our flaws to work out, it was a weird situation, but a lot of people now would say they were jealous of our connection. So it's okay.
Intimacylessness...
- Thread starter evilbrent
- Start date
1dayatatime said:
That's me on the left behind the singer.
Made all three shows. Was completely awesome. We shoulda recorded it. Oh well.
That sounds awful Xero, and I'm glad it's working out for you. My (cynical, jaded) advice - it takes a certain kind of person to cheat on their partner, even when you're a mixed up teen. You're still young. You should have an exit strategy in mind as you go through life's big steps - buying cars, houses, getting careers, more kids etc etc...Xero said:
one of my best friends has got himself into a situation... sorry, correction, he's put his WIFE into a situation... by being the kind of husband you wouldn't want. On the surface he's great, generous, smart, reasonably well off... not very deep down he's got problems that lead to him lying and gambling and being terrible with money and having "internet romances" (ie, he got caught having *gasp* cybersex and writing "I love you" to some random stranger)...
anyway - my point is that my friend's wife is in this _situation_ now - at age 31, with a 14 month old kid, unimaginable debt, a husband she can't trust... and 1/3 of her problem is that she didn't sort out these trust issues 5 or even 10 years ago. Another 1/3 of her problem is that she let HIM try to fake his way out of their money problems, that she had a baby as a way to bring them closer, that she refused to take responsibility. (Obviously the biggest 1/3 is that my friend ended up being the sort of person you wouldn't want to be married to). And now she's stuck stuck stuck. She tried to kick him out but they can't afford that. He stayed with his sister for a while but the truth is they just don't have the funds anymore to have a roof over their heads AND be seperated.
Anyway. Me: cynical now, jaded now. Have an exit strategy is my advice. Then hope that you don't have to use it.
No, you're totally right. My trust for him is always going to be tainted now, and I told him that and that's his problem. I don't like to sound like a jerk, but I kind of have him on a tight leash if you know what I mean. One slip up and I'm gone. I don't consider myself stuck no matter what. I have too many other people that care about me, and Eli would be fine without him. There's no such thing as stuck if you really care about getting out, IMO. Steve knows I'd be gone in an instant if he messed with me again. We've got a lot of faith in each other. I know it sounds impossible, and once a cheater always a cheater (my mom would say), but Steve is like a whole different person now, since all that happened and things really changed between us. Trust me though, it took a very very long time to let it all go. It's still there in the back of my mind too. It really hurt, you know. I don't think being young or immature or mixed up is an excuse for that kind of thing, but I do care enough about my son having a family to give someone I love a second chance. But there are no more chances after this, trust me. One thing and Eli and I are gone forever, so don't get me wrong about all that. I was telling the truth about Steve and I having an awesome relationship now though. We're like best friends most of the time. I'm totally happy. 
So don't worry about me.
So don't worry about me.
This is becoming more and more bloggy as it goes along... I might be moving some of this over to an actual blog...
Events are moving along. Some good. Some bad.
----
So. Big weekend.
After I booted her out (encouraged her to leave for her parent's house early), and sent her a message "Feel free to come home any time before 7:30am monday" I did switch off my mobile and take the phone off the hook. The next morning I did call her and handed the ringing phone to the kids so they could at least say hello. I hung up without talking to her myself.
We had a frustrating afternoon... it was ALMOST hot enough to go to the beach up to lunch time, but it was windy and overcast. Then immediately after lunch it climbed from 26 to 30 in about an hour and the wind dropped off and then we decided to go to the park and it was all hot and I got hayfever and had to go home and we should have just gone to the beach anyway and it was all very annoying.
When I got home the phone rang - my son must have put it back on the hook. It was ringing so I might as well answer it. It was her. I basically had no reason to talk to her. She asked if I wanted her to come home to go to my parents' for sunday dinner or to come home in the morning. I just told her that it was up to her, then passed the phone off to the kids without comment. They talked, then handed me back the phone.
"Ok?" I said. We hadn't decided if she was coming home.
"Uh... ok," she said.
I said "Bye," and hung up.
Both of us spent Saturday believing that it was our first day of being seperated.
----
Then at about midnight I sent her a message "I sent you an email".
----
Some time on Sunday morning I got an sms "Be home bout 1 or 2. Have had good talk with mum, see u soom."
I got a weird phone call from her mum a few minutes later and she said "I just wanted to let you know that we love you and that we think you're great."
It was good her coming home. She seemed to be rested and a bit more able to talk. She actually came and gave me a big hug. And she did tell me that she loves me. And she did tell me that she wants to be with me.
She reckons that talking to her mum was, perhaps, even more useful than talking to the therapist. Her mum is a very smart and empathic person. It bugs my wife that every time they discuss her problems her mum talks about how her prayer-group could help... but that's another story (my wife stopped going to church about 10 years ago).
So she came to family dinner. She let me hug her a couple of times yesterday. And she let me say "Thankyou thankyou thankyou I love you."
----
Then last night our oldest woke up, apparently, screaming with night terrors or something 4 times. So my wife was up 4 times to help him, and came back to bed afterwards furious at me for 'making' her go help him, and furious at me because she couldn't then sleep. She'd taken decongestants, drowsy hay-fever tablets (as opposed to the non-drowsy type) and had some alchohol just so that she could fall asleep in the first place and then she was up half the night.
So we woke up today, Monday morning, back where we started, everyone grumpy at each other, her a wreck and demanding that we move one of the big bookcases around in our loungeroom to cut off 1/3 of the room and make a little bedroom there for her. I really dislike that, but I'm willing to do it if it will help her get some sleep.
It's going to be a bit of a drain having her sleep in the loungeroom - it'll mean I'll have to stop watching telly and playing on the internet as soon as she wants to go to bed. It'll also cut off a big part of the house and blah blah blah. I hate it.
But... I guess.... I'll hate that less than how much I hate living like this so I'm going ahead with it. She actually wants to go one step further and actually put a wall across - but that's such a daft idea, I don't want to go screwing up the layout of our house - and now we've started having a "You never consider my ideas" fight today.
Blergh.
I hate that fight. There's nothing you can defend yourself on - other than saying "Yes I did. I considered it and I still don't like the idea."
----
So far we've gotten to the stage that she's willing to admit that she DOES want to be my wife for a long long time. We're still a world away from 'Your Body Is A Wonderland' moonlit trysts and gasping romantic yearnings... we've stepped down from DEFCON 2 to maybe DEFCON 3.
----
anyway. just got IM message "agh ear getting bad, very very blocked again = ( " so I'd probably better go home and start being patient again.
(Is it awful to say that I find it somehow easier when she's sick?? I'm absolutely not saying that I _prefer_ it - just that when she's happy-ish and healthy-ish and affectionate-ish that's when I'm most aware of the huge distance between us.)
Events are moving along. Some good. Some bad.
----
So. Big weekend.
After I booted her out (encouraged her to leave for her parent's house early), and sent her a message "Feel free to come home any time before 7:30am monday" I did switch off my mobile and take the phone off the hook. The next morning I did call her and handed the ringing phone to the kids so they could at least say hello. I hung up without talking to her myself.
We had a frustrating afternoon... it was ALMOST hot enough to go to the beach up to lunch time, but it was windy and overcast. Then immediately after lunch it climbed from 26 to 30 in about an hour and the wind dropped off and then we decided to go to the park and it was all hot and I got hayfever and had to go home and we should have just gone to the beach anyway and it was all very annoying.
When I got home the phone rang - my son must have put it back on the hook. It was ringing so I might as well answer it. It was her. I basically had no reason to talk to her. She asked if I wanted her to come home to go to my parents' for sunday dinner or to come home in the morning. I just told her that it was up to her, then passed the phone off to the kids without comment. They talked, then handed me back the phone.
"Ok?" I said. We hadn't decided if she was coming home.
"Uh... ok," she said.
I said "Bye," and hung up.
Both of us spent Saturday believing that it was our first day of being seperated.
----
Then at about midnight I sent her a message "I sent you an email".
I waited that long to send my message because I wanted to do some exercises and calm down before wording it - I didn't want an ultimatum and I knew that would be how I'd do it, so I waited.
----
Some time on Sunday morning I got an sms "Be home bout 1 or 2. Have had good talk with mum, see u soom."
I got a weird phone call from her mum a few minutes later and she said "I just wanted to let you know that we love you and that we think you're great."
It was good her coming home. She seemed to be rested and a bit more able to talk. She actually came and gave me a big hug. And she did tell me that she loves me. And she did tell me that she wants to be with me.
She reckons that talking to her mum was, perhaps, even more useful than talking to the therapist. Her mum is a very smart and empathic person. It bugs my wife that every time they discuss her problems her mum talks about how her prayer-group could help... but that's another story (my wife stopped going to church about 10 years ago).
So she came to family dinner. She let me hug her a couple of times yesterday. And she let me say "Thankyou thankyou thankyou I love you."
----
Then last night our oldest woke up, apparently, screaming with night terrors or something 4 times. So my wife was up 4 times to help him, and came back to bed afterwards furious at me for 'making' her go help him, and furious at me because she couldn't then sleep. She'd taken decongestants, drowsy hay-fever tablets (as opposed to the non-drowsy type) and had some alchohol just so that she could fall asleep in the first place and then she was up half the night.
So we woke up today, Monday morning, back where we started, everyone grumpy at each other, her a wreck and demanding that we move one of the big bookcases around in our loungeroom to cut off 1/3 of the room and make a little bedroom there for her. I really dislike that, but I'm willing to do it if it will help her get some sleep.
It's going to be a bit of a drain having her sleep in the loungeroom - it'll mean I'll have to stop watching telly and playing on the internet as soon as she wants to go to bed. It'll also cut off a big part of the house and blah blah blah. I hate it.
But... I guess.... I'll hate that less than how much I hate living like this so I'm going ahead with it. She actually wants to go one step further and actually put a wall across - but that's such a daft idea, I don't want to go screwing up the layout of our house - and now we've started having a "You never consider my ideas" fight today.
Blergh.
I hate that fight. There's nothing you can defend yourself on - other than saying "Yes I did. I considered it and I still don't like the idea."
----
So far we've gotten to the stage that she's willing to admit that she DOES want to be my wife for a long long time. We're still a world away from 'Your Body Is A Wonderland' moonlit trysts and gasping romantic yearnings... we've stepped down from DEFCON 2 to maybe DEFCON 3.
----
anyway. just got IM message "agh ear getting bad, very very blocked again = ( " so I'd probably better go home and start being patient again.
(Is it awful to say that I find it somehow easier when she's sick?? I'm absolutely not saying that I _prefer_ it - just that when she's happy-ish and healthy-ish and affectionate-ish that's when I'm most aware of the huge distance between us.)
Damn, Brent, this is heart-wrenching.
There's little I can say here that hasn't been said already. I think all the thoughts I was considering posting were summed up eloquently by Xero in her first post.
While mindful that there're always two sides to every story, the facts as you present them indicate that you have the patience of Job. I commend you on your love, your devotion, your concern, your strivance to seek help from others (i.e., folks on these forums) to help guide you, your willingness to seek counseling, and your tireless efforts to improve your marriage. Keep it up.
This may be a non-issue now (I noticed you haven't mentioned this in a long time), but I think it bears reiterating: <I>please don't cheat.</I> I understand you have sexual needs and that they may feel overwhelming at times. But remember that when you have an affair, you don't <I>just</I> cheat on your wife, you cheat on your whole family, including your children. Having an affair betrays the "pool of trust" that a family shares. Don't do it, please.
There are other ways. Some people turn to their religion, like your mother-in-law. Some turn to yoga, or focus on exercise, or find some other constructive outlet for those energies. That's worthy of a whole forum thread in and of itself.
I agree with Xero that it's better for the children in the long term to have the presence of two parents in the household, and for the parents (or even if it's just one parent) to swallow all this stuff. Yes, that's a killer for the parent, but life slowly kills you. There's nothing we can do to avoid that. This heartache will age you, will take its toll on you emotionally <I>and</I> physically in the long run, but you must suffer these slings and arrows for the good of your children, so they have a stable household. They <I>need</I> you and they need their mother. I'm surprised to see, though, that your wife was willing to be separated from her children like that, and didn't try to take <I>them</I> with <I>her </I>when she was out of the house. I think it's better that they remain with you, given her bevy of mental health issues, and the fact that she seems to accept that too tells me that she is self-aware, and can't help herself. It seems to me that you must think of this situation in terms of <I>your wife is sick</I>. Her sickness isn't polio or tuberculosis...that would be easier to deal with, because she'd <I>look</I> sick, and the visual reminder would help you put it into context. You might have an easier time dealing with the lack of physical intimacy and the other issues if you had that visual reminder all the time. No, in your case, her sickness is a mental illness -- depression, self-esteem issues, etc. -- and it's easy to forget that what's causing this is her sickness.
Personally, I don't buy the rubbish that a lot of marriage counselors peddle that "it's virtually impossible for marital problems to be the fault of only one partner." Sure, that's job security for <I>them</I>...<I>two</I> patients to treat, so <I>twice</I> the issues to deal with, so <I>twice</I> the sessions, so <I>twice</I> the additions you put on their house. I'm not saying that marriage counseling is bad or unproductive, but there's <I>definitely</I> an unavoidable conflict of interest inherent in the marriage counseling / psychology profession that you have to be mindful of at all times.
In many cases, where one partner suffers from depression that stems from physiological issues, or trauma that precedes the relationship, or self-esteem issues that precede the relationship, etc., it's <I>unfair</I> to say that the depressed partner "isn't getting what she needs" from the other partner. That's <I>blaming the victim</I>. The mental illness is victimizing both of you, and it's unfair to put any blame on you, as it's unfair to put it squarely on your wife. She is sick. I'm not saying she's faultless for not doing everything she can to deal with her depression, but what the heck are <I>you</I> supposed to do? You can't give a depressed woman "what she needs." You're not a psychiatrist or a mental health professional. You're a loving guy who saw something wonderful in this woman, fell in love with her, and then had her depression run roughshod over both your lives. You were faultless in this, and I have nothing but contempt for the notion that most marriage counselors peddle that you are somehow remiss in giving her what she needs. You could <I>never</I> give her what she needs. She could be married to Buddha or Jesus Christ or the Dalai Lama or -- dare I say it? -- <I>Dr. Phil</I>, and she'd <I>still</I> be unhappy.
All I can say to you is, find <I>some</I> passion of yours to be an outlet for your sexual frustration -- yoga, making music, devoting yourself utterly to your children...whatever -- and throw yourself into it <I>until your eyes bleed</I>. Masterbate to release the physiological need for sexual release. But do <I>NOT</I> cheat on your family, <I>please</I>! Some day, your <I>children</I> will be the final arbiters of all this, and they will have the benefit of 20/20 vision that hindsight affords. <I>They</I> will be the people to ultimately judge whether you did right by this situation or not. Live and act for <I>that</I> judgment. We can't make those kinds of judgment calls here and now, while you're living in the moment. Remember that your wife is <I>sick</I>, and that you are dealing with a <I>sickness</I>, and that such is among the many hardships that life affords us. A great philosopher and spiritual leader once said that "life is suffering," and we must accept that, and find within ourselves the strength we often don't believe we have so that we can keep living, keep providing for our children, and keep <I>doing the right thing</I> from a <I>farsighted</I> perspective.
Good luck, and my thoughts and <I>empathetic</I> heart are with you.
There's little I can say here that hasn't been said already. I think all the thoughts I was considering posting were summed up eloquently by Xero in her first post.
While mindful that there're always two sides to every story, the facts as you present them indicate that you have the patience of Job. I commend you on your love, your devotion, your concern, your strivance to seek help from others (i.e., folks on these forums) to help guide you, your willingness to seek counseling, and your tireless efforts to improve your marriage. Keep it up.
This may be a non-issue now (I noticed you haven't mentioned this in a long time), but I think it bears reiterating: <I>please don't cheat.</I> I understand you have sexual needs and that they may feel overwhelming at times. But remember that when you have an affair, you don't <I>just</I> cheat on your wife, you cheat on your whole family, including your children. Having an affair betrays the "pool of trust" that a family shares. Don't do it, please.
There are other ways. Some people turn to their religion, like your mother-in-law. Some turn to yoga, or focus on exercise, or find some other constructive outlet for those energies. That's worthy of a whole forum thread in and of itself.
I agree with Xero that it's better for the children in the long term to have the presence of two parents in the household, and for the parents (or even if it's just one parent) to swallow all this stuff. Yes, that's a killer for the parent, but life slowly kills you. There's nothing we can do to avoid that. This heartache will age you, will take its toll on you emotionally <I>and</I> physically in the long run, but you must suffer these slings and arrows for the good of your children, so they have a stable household. They <I>need</I> you and they need their mother. I'm surprised to see, though, that your wife was willing to be separated from her children like that, and didn't try to take <I>them</I> with <I>her </I>when she was out of the house. I think it's better that they remain with you, given her bevy of mental health issues, and the fact that she seems to accept that too tells me that she is self-aware, and can't help herself. It seems to me that you must think of this situation in terms of <I>your wife is sick</I>. Her sickness isn't polio or tuberculosis...that would be easier to deal with, because she'd <I>look</I> sick, and the visual reminder would help you put it into context. You might have an easier time dealing with the lack of physical intimacy and the other issues if you had that visual reminder all the time. No, in your case, her sickness is a mental illness -- depression, self-esteem issues, etc. -- and it's easy to forget that what's causing this is her sickness.
Personally, I don't buy the rubbish that a lot of marriage counselors peddle that "it's virtually impossible for marital problems to be the fault of only one partner." Sure, that's job security for <I>them</I>...<I>two</I> patients to treat, so <I>twice</I> the issues to deal with, so <I>twice</I> the sessions, so <I>twice</I> the additions you put on their house. I'm not saying that marriage counseling is bad or unproductive, but there's <I>definitely</I> an unavoidable conflict of interest inherent in the marriage counseling / psychology profession that you have to be mindful of at all times.
In many cases, where one partner suffers from depression that stems from physiological issues, or trauma that precedes the relationship, or self-esteem issues that precede the relationship, etc., it's <I>unfair</I> to say that the depressed partner "isn't getting what she needs" from the other partner. That's <I>blaming the victim</I>. The mental illness is victimizing both of you, and it's unfair to put any blame on you, as it's unfair to put it squarely on your wife. She is sick. I'm not saying she's faultless for not doing everything she can to deal with her depression, but what the heck are <I>you</I> supposed to do? You can't give a depressed woman "what she needs." You're not a psychiatrist or a mental health professional. You're a loving guy who saw something wonderful in this woman, fell in love with her, and then had her depression run roughshod over both your lives. You were faultless in this, and I have nothing but contempt for the notion that most marriage counselors peddle that you are somehow remiss in giving her what she needs. You could <I>never</I> give her what she needs. She could be married to Buddha or Jesus Christ or the Dalai Lama or -- dare I say it? -- <I>Dr. Phil</I>, and she'd <I>still</I> be unhappy.
All I can say to you is, find <I>some</I> passion of yours to be an outlet for your sexual frustration -- yoga, making music, devoting yourself utterly to your children...whatever -- and throw yourself into it <I>until your eyes bleed</I>. Masterbate to release the physiological need for sexual release. But do <I>NOT</I> cheat on your family, <I>please</I>! Some day, your <I>children</I> will be the final arbiters of all this, and they will have the benefit of 20/20 vision that hindsight affords. <I>They</I> will be the people to ultimately judge whether you did right by this situation or not. Live and act for <I>that</I> judgment. We can't make those kinds of judgment calls here and now, while you're living in the moment. Remember that your wife is <I>sick</I>, and that you are dealing with a <I>sickness</I>, and that such is among the many hardships that life affords us. A great philosopher and spiritual leader once said that "life is suffering," and we must accept that, and find within ourselves the strength we often don't believe we have so that we can keep living, keep providing for our children, and keep <I>doing the right thing</I> from a <I>farsighted</I> perspective.
Good luck, and my thoughts and <I>empathetic</I> heart are with you.
I certainly appreciate the response that you wrote Pater, but please stick to threads that are 30 days old or less. This is over a year old, and I can't tell you the last time I saw EvilBrent here.
Oh GEEZ! I'm sorry, everybody! I could have sworn I saw this thread in the "Hot Topics" box...I must have been confused, and saw it in the other box (the "related threads" box or something like that?). My apologies...I'm still getting familiar with the interface.
I'll try to be more mindful of the dates of all the threads (although, I must admit, I <I>really</I> don't think it's such an issue...it doesn't seem like these forums get enough traffic to put any "hot" or "recent" threads in danger of being "bumped into obscurity." I mean, the <I>worst</I> case scenario is that a thread moves down and you have to scroll down the page (or click on the Page 2 link) to view it.
But I <I>do</I> understand the notion that after a month or so, the topic gets stale and the original poster is no longer looking for advice.
But, on the other hand, I'll bet there are a lot of folks who <I>read</I> these forums who just don't post ("lurkers" in the internet vernacular) for whatever reason -- they're not confident enough in their writing skills, they don't know how to frame their issue, whatever -- and for whom the topic is topical for <I>them.</I>
I fully admit, though, that in this case, I was guilty of thread necromancy...I didn't notice the year on this thread, and I should have checked that. I saw "10" as the month and figured, oh, well, this thread is only a week or two over 30 days old. <I>Mea culpa</I>.
Just one addendum, though...I know I'm a n00bie, and nobody likes n00bies coming into a forum with time-tested guidelines and trying to shake up the rules...but I'm just throwing this suggestion out there...might we consider extending the age of what we consider a "stale" thread from 30 days to ... maybe ... 60 days? It seems the 30-day limit is not commensurate with the amount of traffic these forums get. I could be <I>totally wrong</I> about that, and feel free to smack me down on that issue. I certainly won't make an issue of it if everyone is set on 30 days. Again...sorry about misjudging the age of this thread.
I'll try to be more mindful of the dates of all the threads (although, I must admit, I <I>really</I> don't think it's such an issue...it doesn't seem like these forums get enough traffic to put any "hot" or "recent" threads in danger of being "bumped into obscurity." I mean, the <I>worst</I> case scenario is that a thread moves down and you have to scroll down the page (or click on the Page 2 link) to view it.
But I <I>do</I> understand the notion that after a month or so, the topic gets stale and the original poster is no longer looking for advice.
But, on the other hand, I'll bet there are a lot of folks who <I>read</I> these forums who just don't post ("lurkers" in the internet vernacular) for whatever reason -- they're not confident enough in their writing skills, they don't know how to frame their issue, whatever -- and for whom the topic is topical for <I>them.</I>
I fully admit, though, that in this case, I was guilty of thread necromancy...I didn't notice the year on this thread, and I should have checked that. I saw "10" as the month and figured, oh, well, this thread is only a week or two over 30 days old. <I>Mea culpa</I>.
Just one addendum, though...I know I'm a n00bie, and nobody likes n00bies coming into a forum with time-tested guidelines and trying to shake up the rules...but I'm just throwing this suggestion out there...might we consider extending the age of what we consider a "stale" thread from 30 days to ... maybe ... 60 days? It seems the 30-day limit is not commensurate with the amount of traffic these forums get. I could be <I>totally wrong</I> about that, and feel free to smack me down on that issue. I certainly won't make an issue of it if everyone is set on 30 days. Again...sorry about misjudging the age of this thread.