Is this form of discipline okay to do?...

[ElliottCarasDad]

its only pain if its exess

da poit of "wall-sits" as it was discussid was t' do it until it was painful f' de pehson doigg it

 

[Xero]

true...but not a stretch to connect

talking about "wall-sits" with someone named "BenDavis503" from a year ago talking about the exact same thing....

Oh I'm really sorry!! Thank you for pointing that out, that makes it pretty obvious haha.

superman - Its not really dramatic, its not that hard to get that the point of doing wall sits or anything similar is JUST to put the child in pain. That's what its for, it makes your legs burn really bad, which is why it is a punishment. How would it be punishment at all if it didn't hurt? Think about it.

 

[superman]

Oh I'm really sorry!! Thank you for pointing that out, that makes it pretty obvious haha.

superman - Its not really dramatic, its not that hard to get that the point of doing wall sits or anything similar is JUST to put the child in pain. That's what its for, it makes your legs burn really bad, which is why it is a punishment. How would it be punishment at all if it didn't hurt? Think about it.

true, true

 

[Maria]

My only worry is this: Your children will grow up viewing exercise as something negative instead of something healthy and positive. These "wall sits" (that was the name, correct?) are indeed PE exercises. By using this as a punishment at such an early age you are teaching them that exercise is just that, a punishment that should be avoided. That is not a good foundation for the children to be later taught that exercise is healthy, good, and something they should want to do. Kids are smart, and come PE time the children will recognize the activities from their earlier punishments. It would be better to lay a foundation that exercise can be fun, exciting, and rewarding by making exercise routines with games and music.

As for punishments, I am not sure what to suggest. I do not yet have kids. My parents spanked me only for the most serious offenses... I was only occasionally spanked as a kid because of that. As an alternative to lesser crimes, my parents would sprinkle uncooked grains of rice in the corner and make me kneel in it facing the corner for five minutes. If you've ever kneeled in rice, then you know how much of a deterrent that memory is. Perhaps try taking away a favorite toy or television show or video game? I know taking away favorite activities was my sister's weak spot. Mine was kneeling in rice cause nothing else worked.

 

[Maria]

Sounds really similar, but that may or may not be the same guy ECD....

Either way, I completely agree with NinjaBob that there's really hardly any difference between you inflicting pain on your children and forcing your children to inflict pain on themselves. Its the same thing, but some people think they can avoid the guilt by keeping their hands out of it.

I have done wall sits before, and they HURT!! My adoptive mom never spanked any of us kids, but she did sometimes have the younger ones "hold up the wall" (where you stand a certain distance from the wall and put your hands on it, above your head, and keep your arms and legs completely straight). It wasn't pretty, I almost would say it was meaner than an actual spanking. I can still remember my brother at four years old crying and begging to be done with it, with his arms and legs shaking and his face turning red. That's what wall sits would look like, trust me. Its just a different version of inflicting pain on a kid. I would be ANGRY if anybody made my kid do anything like that, to purposefully have him hurt himself.

In light of negative responses to physical punishment, you ask "what else can I do"? Do you really only know of physical punishment as a form of discipline? Surely I don't have to remind you of time out, grounding, losing priveleges, losing toys/items of interest, apology letters, writing (i.e - I will not hit my sister. I will not hit my sister. I will not hit my sister. lol). There are sooooooooooo many alternatives to physical punishment. What you SHOULD be considering is when is a situation REALLY important enough to call for a parent to hurt their child?

Now, I'm not 100% against spanking. But I do think that parents who do spank should NOT use it as a regular everyday form of discipline and it should only be used in the most severe of situations. I don't spank my son, but if the situation were bad enough (life threatening, dangerous, or just extremely shockingly bad lol) I might find myself using a spank to really get an important point across. I don't claim that this is right or wrong, but its how my brain works.

As for the wall sits or anything related - just don't. Its kind of cruel, I mean come on. Its easy to discipline your kids without hurting them. And honestly, IMO, if you feel like you have to call CPS to ask if its okay, then that right there should tell you enough about how good the idea is.

Oh my goodness!!! In elementary school, I had to write "I will not be tardy for class" 100 times! I was never late again! My hands hurt so bad from writing with the pen I thought it would fall off!!! I never even thought of a parent using that at home, but yeah, that would be a good punishment tool!

 

[singledad]

true...but not a stretch to connect

talking about "wall-sits" with someone named "BenDavis503" from a year ago talking about the exact same thing....

I remember BenDavis503 being active here when I joined, and I remember thinking he sounded like a good guy. Just goes to show that the internet is still the same old internet - full of people who let their inner a$$hole take over the moment they get to hide behind an anonymous username. Regardless of how friendly and trustworthy the fancy modern forums seem - nothing has really changed from UseNet days.

 

[Andy in NY]

I did read the original post and while I agree that there are differences between wall sits and paddling. There are also similarities. They are both physical punishments. Whether you strike a chid or make him cause himself physical pain is a subtle difference IMO.

Using exercise is fine for military recruits, lord knows it motivated me but using exercise to punish a child could, granted not always put exercise in a negative light. Personally I choose to make exercise fun for my kids but to each his own.

BTW this is what I meant when I stated in my first post that this topic can get ugly quick. Andy in NY got a little snippy with me and rightly so. It's a sensitive issue. I'm only trying to help. I'm not trying to attack anyone. I know whats best for my family and I respect that we have different views.

just fyi, i wasnt trying to get snippy with you... its just that i dont see something like that as physical punishment and assumed you thought he was talking about paddling the kid. sorry for the confusion.



as for the wall sits, or squats, or push ups or whatever exersise like that, i dont see that as being "painful"... and i think it can be a useful tool. as i mentioned earlier when ryan was in karate, his teacher and another parent who i am friends with suggested using squats as a light punishment for things like talking back or swearing or other minor offenses. 10-15 of them gets the point across that whatever they did is not okay. they didnt really work with ryan because hes in great physical shape and could do 50 of them and barely break a sweat and even told us that they didnt bother him. brianna on the other hand HATED them. all it took was 10 of them and she got the message. and at this point she talks back alot less and lies alot less.

so am i understanding right that this guy who asked about it is a troll? he asked the same question before, why, to get everyone going??

 

[TabascoNatalie]

i do think that ANY form of punishment (spanking just as well as taking toys away) which means REVENGE to your child that he/she did wrong, is very very BAD.
what kids do wrong -- in most often cases can be corrected. like: made a mess-- clean up, been rude -- appologise, broke something -- fix it.

actually, in our family we do sit-ups as a sort of "discipline" in certain cases, like saying a bad word (daddy got to do that as an example as he cussed someone on phone in front of the kids).

kids should learn to correct their mistakes, not suffer for them.

 

[Andy in NY]

i do think that ANY form of punishment (spanking just as well as taking toys away) which means REVENGE to your child that he/she did wrong, is very very BAD.
what kids do wrong -- in most often cases can be corrected. like: made a mess-- clean up, been rude -- appologise, broke something -- fix it.

actually, in our family we do sit-ups as a sort of "discipline" in certain cases, like saying a bad word (daddy got to do that as an example as he cussed someone on phone in front of the kids).

kids should learn to correct their mistakes, not suffer for them.

but thats not always the case. yes, a mess can be cleaned up, but a stolen and spent already dollar cant be given back. we generally dont punish our kids for messes or being rude, except for when my 14 yr old step daughter was really giving attitude at the top and bottom of every hour, and in that case we did take steps to curb it some.

i find a big difference between the younger kids and older too... especially when it comes to being malicious and breaking rules intentionally. so what works for a 6 year old, probably wont for a 12 year old.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

but thats not always the case. yes, a mess can be cleaned up, but a stolen and spent already dollar cant be given back.

depends. if your children receive allowance or earn money somehow... it can be given backin the future. or some action can be done to replace the harm.

i find a big difference between the younger kids and older too... especially when it comes to being malicious and breaking rules intentionally. so what works for a 6 year old, probably wont for a 12 year old.

i agree. i still think (yet) that punishment should not be a revenge.

 

[Xero]

I agree with TabascoNatalie, ALMOST everything kids do wrong can be corrected in a completely fair way, like in the examples she gave. Even your suggestion, Andy, about stealing a dollar and spending it. If that were my child, he would return the item to the store, get the money back and return the money with an apology letter about why it was wrong to steal. Or if it was not returnable, the person he stole from would get to have the item he bought and the next time he earned money of his own the person he stole from would get their money back as well. Its not that hard if you use your head, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Physical punishment is very. Rarely. Necessary. Its just easier than going through all the trouble of actually thinking about a good way to have your child make up for what he did, and learn from his mistakes. What is the easiest? Swinging your open hand, or pointing at the ground and saying "push ups". Does a child learn anything from that? I'd really have to say no haha.

Physical punishments might STOP bad behavior sometimes, but it does not in any way help kids learn from their mistakes or learn how to behave right. It just scares them out of doing stuff sometimes. Even you Andy, you claim that this kind of thing works so well, but judging by your other threads talking about your kids and their behaviors it hasn't seemed to prove that effective in the long term.

 

[rick&beckykraem]

We wouldn't recommend "wall sits" as the first choice for correcting bad behavior. How do they respond to "time-outs" where they just sit for a few minutes alone? Unless they are refusing to take the time-out, you can get the same results. If time-outs don't work well (we found the effectiveness faded over time for more introverted pre-teenagers), try removing a favorite object or priviledge.

Rick and Becky Kraemer

 

[eir-ph]

well, it is in your conscience that any form of physical punishment will hurt you more then it hurts your children. furthermore, wall sits aren't even worthy of the notification of CPS, consider them a form of disciplinary excercise? it helps both ways.

 

[singledad]

Physical punishment is very. Rarely. Necessary. Its just easier than going through all the trouble of actually thinking about a good way to have your child make up for what he did, and learn from his mistakes. What is the easiest? Swinging your open hand, or pointing at the ground and saying "push ups". Does a child learn anything from that? I'd really have to say no haha.

I agree 100%.

IMO discipline should be a process of teaching a child how to function as a part of society, and to respect himself and those around him. That means you don't steal, out of respect for the rightful owner of the item. You don't deliberately break things, out of respect for the owner. You behave in class, out of respect for the teacher and your fellow students. You don't drink and do drugs, because you should have enough self-respect to not want to destroy your own body, etc. In life, everything (yes - EVERYTHING) comes down to self-respect and respect for others. I learnt that the hard way, and I hope to pass that lesson on to my daughter, and thereby spare her from having to make the mistakes I did.

But there is nothing respectful about physical punishment. It doesn't teach a child self-respect, and it doesn't teach a child to respect you. It teaches the child to fear you.

Physical punishments might STOP bad behavior sometimes, but it does not in any way help kids learn from their mistakes or learn how to behave right. It just scares them out of doing stuff sometimes. Even you Andy, you claim that this kind of thing works so well, but judging by your other threads talking about your kids and their behaviors it hasn't seemed to prove that effective in the long term.

Ouch. That is harsh, but I will have to agree...

 

[Maria]

But there is nothing respectful about physical punishment. It doesn't teach a child self-respect, and it doesn't teach a child to respect you. It teaches the child to fear you.

Hmmm... I have always been a supporter of spanking, but you have a good point there. I can vouch just from the experience of being spanked as a kid that this is definitely true. I would have vivid nightmares at night of my dad getting enraged and spanking me. I cannot ever recall going to my parents when I had a problem because I was scared they would spank me, or even worse, make me kneel in rice (that hurts really bad btw, and it lasts longer). This did not change until I was a teen and they stopped spanking me, only then did I start going to them with problems... Congratulations. You've moved me from a supporter of spanking to undecided. Because I do not consider a child being afraid to turn to their parents for support a good thing. I'm curious though, for the posters who were not spanked as kids, were you afraid to go to your parents as kids for help because of the punishment?

 

[Andy in NY]

I believe fear has ALOT to do with rules... kids AND adults alike. it is fear of punishment that stops us from doing bad things. now, i consider myself a moral person, so not doing something like speeding is for moral reasons (what if i hit and killed someone). but other things are for legal reasons, and i dont do them because im afraid of getting caught and going to jail. that is fear.

when i was a kid, we were afraid of my dad, in the sense that we knew if we screwed up, he would be after us. do i love him? of course. did i have a great relationship with him? sure did, and still do. but i knew that if i did whatever, dad would be right there to kick my ass. thats what stopped me as a kid from doing bad things before the morals kicked in by my late teens.

i do agree that everything comes down to self respect and respect for others, but thats not all. fear is a part of it.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

I believe fear has ALOT to do with rules... kids AND adults alike. it is fear of punishment that stops us from doing bad things. now, i consider myself a moral person, so not doing something like speeding is for moral reasons (what if i hit and killed someone). but other things are for legal reasons, and i dont do them because im afraid of getting caught and going to jail. that is fear..

really? what about all those people in jails? what about all those criminals who don't go to jail because of powerful lawyers? (how much they care of rules...)

after all, if punishment by going to jail really worked, there wouldn't be as many people in there.
(everybody should be so afraid of that...)

sometime ago i watched this documentary about Harley-Davidson history. there was this guy from Hells Angels who said: going to jail -- its such a powerful experience. just like for people going to army or university.

hmm???
after all... good people don't need rules, bad people don't care anyway.

 

[sbattisti]

I suspect that, as with learning, certain people respond to certain types of discipline better.

I'm probably a very different case. I was super, super-straight. Never drank, never smoked, never did drugs. The worst I did was cut class. There was no fear at all in my family. Just had great, supportive parents, who had rules but always respected me and weren't hardasses about the rules. I just never felt the NEED to do any of that stuff. (Frankly, I'm such a type-A personality in general that the whole "rebel against authority" thing never appealed to me, nor did the loss of control most drinking/recreational drugs entail.)

But, here's my point: one time in HS I didn't come home when I said I was going to, and didn't call. I got grounded, but the <I>true </I>deterrent was how upset and worried my mom was. She was so obviously hurt by my breach of trust that I never did it again.

I scarcely think that would work for, for example, Andy in NY's case. So, my point is, what works for one kid may not work for another. There is no magic bullet.

~s

 

[Xero]

I'm curious though, for the posters who were not spanked as kids, were you afraid to go to your parents as kids for help because of the punishment?

I am for the most part against spanking, as you can tell by my posts haha, but I was physically punished as a child so I figured I'd just make that clear as to why I can't really respond to that. :/ If it helps any though, I was always afraid to go to my mom with my problems as well. And not out of respect for what she would think sadly, but out of fear for what she would do. Its not how I want my kids thinking of me, you know?

I believe fear has ALOT to do with rules... kids AND adults alike. it is fear of punishment that stops us from doing bad things. now, i consider myself a moral person, so not doing something like speeding is for moral reasons (what if i hit and killed someone). but other things are for legal reasons, and i dont do them because im afraid of getting caught and going to jail. that is fear.

Again, even things like that should not be out of fear. You should be avoiding doing bad things because its immoral, and out of respect for the people it would potentially affect, not because you're scared of getting in trouble. I don't disrespect my managers at work and I do a good job and stay within the rules, not because I'm afraid of getting written up or losing my job, but because I would rather not dissapoint the people who put their trust in me (my managers) and I would feel guilty about putting my managers in the position of having to deal with me acting out etc. That's the way it SHOULD be. I don't steal from places because it will hurt someone else's finances, and I know how it would make me feel if someone stole frome me. I have also experienced being in this position first hand, once a year I take part in our store inventory count and its a very depressing and stressful point in time when we get to the losses. My managers have to go through a ton of crap over the losses, and I would just never make myself a part of that.

People who don't care about who else might be affected by their actions are the ones that are "just afriad of getting in trouble" or just afraid of going to jail, or just scared of getting caught for doing something illegal. Because in that sense you are strictly thinking about yourself, and focused on what will happen to you or how your actions will affect you in the long run. If you cared about anyone but yourself, the legalities would be the last thing on your mind as a reason not to do something wrong. IMHO.

I don't want my kids growing up not doing bad things simply because they're afraid of getting caught. There's no thought process to that at all. Its not a good reason, and it does not always matter enough to keep kids from doing stuff. I want them growing up avoiding doing bad things because they know that they're wrong, why they're wrong, and because they don't want to hurt other people.

 

[NancyM]

I'm curious though, for the posters who were not spanked as kids, were you afraid to go to your parents as kids for help because of the punishment?

Children shouldn't be afraid of their parents at all. Parents should be respected by their children, but they need to respect their children as well..

IMO, If someone is hurting me, I don't believe I would have much respect for them. Maybe when I'm little I would be afraid instead because I wouldn't have any choices, but once I grew up I'd realize that they couldn't have respected me much because if they did they would take the time to talk to me like a human being, rather than physical hurt me, (which is way easier.)

My parents raised 7 children, and did not use spanking or any other physical form or punishment to discipline us, they weren't perfect I think I got a swat or two at times, but I was never afraid they would hurt me. NOT EVER. And I knew that what ever I did, they would be there for me, and always on my side. No I was not afraid to go to them for help.

I hoped that helped you some.