Out of control 8 year old girl...

artistinspired

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Mar 14, 2011
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Hi. I found this forum on a general search of the internet this afternoon after another horrid phone session with my eight year old daughter. (she will be nine in May). I'll try to explain the situation as briefly but fully as i possibly can. In all my years of child care, little siblings, and parenting i've never been at a loss like this. I have no idea where to turn, or if i'm just over-reacting and have just been lucky with my other two. My son was difficult with bed wetting and emotional things for several years, but he grew out of it. The story.

I am truly and deeply concerned that my daughter has a mental illness. At eight years old i didn't think i would still be dealing with what are essentially temper tantrums. Her father and I live seperately, but we communicate well. We have used every form of communication and discipline on the face of the planet. She is not moving on from this phase, it seems to be escalating into self harm and a potential over-eating disorder.

She is good in school, educationally, smart, sometimes she speaks in words and ways that seem way above where an eight year old should be. She loves to draw (like her mother) and is not a "bad" kid. She has social problems at school occasionally, teasing, but she is incredibly bossy with other children. She gets bored, easily and it is never enough for her.

The fits: She gets so worked up, usually over little things, things that make her angry, being told no, she talks back, snaps at us. She melts down and it's for hours. She screams repeatedly no matter how calm we are, she plays the victim and makes herself ill. It is like an anxiety attack, but somehow worse :/ once it hits critical, she will hit her head on the wall.
Recently her father is having to combat her using food for her boredom. We do things with her, draw, paint, i hand made her a dollhouse for christmas last year, we go on walks, to park, and today it was over her father taking a final online. She lashed out at him and it escalated into a full meltdown for two hours. He grounded her, and it got worse. she is calm now, but this happens often. Too often. once, twice, sometimes more a week.

I almost posted this in special needs. I realize that i may have to take her to have her diagnosed. I just wanted to see if other parents know these symptoms, have experienced them, because honestly the last thing i want is to medicate my child.

Thank you for reading.
 

singledad

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artistinspired said:
I almost posted this in special needs. <U> I realize that i may have to take her to have her diagnosed</U>. I just wanted to see if other parents know these symptoms, have experienced them, because honestly the last thing i want is to medicate my child.

Thank you for reading.
I'm sorry that you have to deal with this. :(

Unfortunately I don't know these symptoms, but it sounds like you know what to do. I understand that you are worried about medicating your child - who want to do that? On that topic I just want to say that firstly - a diagnoses does not necessarily mean that she will be medicated. Depending on the problem, there may be ways to help her that doesn't involve meds. Secondly - if she does have a mental illness that requires medication, then the sooner she gets on medication the better. I agree that the thought of medicating an 8-year old is revolting, but when placed next to making a child live with untreated mental illness, it is definitely the lesser of the two evils.
 

artistinspired

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Thanks for the response. I just keep hoping she will grow out of this. Her father and I have blamed ourselves a lot, and each other a few times. It has reached a different point. My biggest goal at this point is to get it under control before she gets older and hits puberty. If not in check i fear for her emotional stability and ability to make healthy choices while going through hormones.

I suppose i agree, the lesser of the two evils. People these days in the US seem to medictae for everything and i'm just afraid that is what the quick fix answer i'm going to get will be. I cannot afford expensive treatment, the cost is insane. It will have to be through the state. I was really hoping i'm just over-reacting but maybe i'm not the more i really look at it from an unemotional perspective. Does anyone know the best place to start with something like this? Should i talk to her school first maybe? Or go directly for a family counseling session?
 

MomoJA

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Feb 18, 2011
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I have a niece who will be 11 in a few months. I wouldn't say she has temper tantrums, but she seems to have "victim" and/or anxiety tantrums. She perceives that others are picking on her, and the truth is, she is probably being rejected on some level because her reactions are hard to deal with. When she loses something, which she does a lot, she goes off the deep end. Again, it is very uncomfortable to be around. She is also very clumsy. She is a beautiful girl, but awkward.

I know this has been a very difficult issue for her parents, but if they have sought counseling, I'm not aware of it.

She seems to be extremely intelligent, and I think it might be that she understands things on levels that her peers do not, but she is not mature enough to realize that. Anyway, I have to say that she seems to have gotten better in the last year.

I don't know if that helps at all.

I definitely would talk to her school to find out if they have witnessed anything like this with her. And I would also seek counseling for her first to find out if there is something else affecting her reactions, such as bullying that she is afraid to tell you about, etc.
 

artistinspired

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I have talked to her teacher, he said he was not aware of any issues of being picked on. I told him she talks about it sometimes, he said he would speak with her. She is very closed off about it.

and actually this actually does help momo. Do you know how they handled it in the last year to help it get better?
 

MomoJA

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I can't swear that they have done nothing, but I know of no special action that they have taken. It has been a bit of a touchy subject with them, so I've never brooched it.

I know that they felt there was improvement two years ago when she moved into the next grade level and no longer had a teacher whom she felt she could never please.

The only other thing I know about it is that she went to a camp last summer that she particularly loved, having something to do with computers. She is a voracious reader and really has gotten into some new series.

I've witnessed a few meltdowns in the past year, but not as many, and there didn't seem to be any with her cousins the last time we had a big family gathering. Usually there are quite a few because there are three cousins all the same age and she always feels like the other two are "against" her. But this last time, they all seemed to get along beautifully.

I'm hoping for her sake that as she continues to mature she will be able to deal with things more easily, but I do believe she will always have some social issues and eventually she will need therapy to help her cope more happily.
 

artistinspired

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I can see why it would be a touchy subject. It is very frustrating as a parent to love them, support them and do everything "right" and have this happen. You fear judgement. :(

"your not tough enough" "she is a spoiled brat" etc...

She communicates fine when she is not upset, but when she gets upset she simply cannot calm down or control herself. She will say she understands and wants to try to stop, but the minute something effects her the wrong way it is like nothing we say was ever heard. As if she is lacking that ability, and it is always the world against her in that case. She will apologize afterwards, usually full heartedly, for the horrible things she will say during, but it doesn't remove the reality that this will cause serious problems as she gets older.

I told her last night maybe we need to see a doctor for this. I will look into it further and find something to set up. Maybe i just don't know how to teach her to understand. This is the hardest thing i've ever gone through wtih my kids.

I guess just admiting that it is a problem is the first step for all of us. :/
 

IADad

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I certainly don't have any "answers for you" but some thoughts for you to consider along with what others have posted.

I don't know about the teacher talking to her, it seems more useful for the teacher to be aware and watchful. If she is being picked on the last thing she needs is to be perceived as having sought out the teacher's protection...just a thought. Obviously, if the bullying is serious, it needs to be addressess by the teacher/administration.

In reading your initial account, I wonder one thing. Is ist possible that betweeen having multiple homes and frustrated parents, that perhaps you've tried too much? You said you've tried every approach. I wonder if you could coordinate with dad, and try one very specific consistent approach for 2 maybe 3 weeks...just a thought, not meant to be critical, it just kind of popped out at me.

Lastly, it does seem like maybe it's time to seek out medical/psychiatric help. I know you want to consider it carefully, but if she was coughing up blood for this long, you'd get her medical help. It does seem like she's been symptomatic for long enough to be concerned..

Good luck.
 

artistinspired

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I definately see your point about the teacher issue. It doesn't make it easier to feel singled out with issues. unfortunately, while it doesn't make it right, i feel that she brings a lot of it on herself by being bossy with other kids. She really is and gets mad when they don't do what she wants, so in essence she herself is being a bully but then is the victim to the responses from her own actions. I don't know how to get her to see this with out ruining her self esteem any further.

I really like what you just said about trying too hard, or maybe too many different angles? I was emotionally distraught yesterday over this, and i think you might have a very valid point with that.

It is almost like you get so caught up in wanting it to stop that you start trying anything to get it too, when more consistancy might be the best angle. I will be talking to her father about this immediately. thank you very much.
 

Big_Sister

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I jest can say, It seams that Inteligent childs mabe jest girls are difficult. Sam had ever trouble or at least since she learnd to read, listening to anybody, she gets mad if somone dicides over her, even if its realy nessesery...

but lucky me, she jest walks away and ignores the person (most of the time me^^)
 

TabascoNatalie

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i am no psychiatrist, but this sounds like it might be Asperger's syndrome (mild form of autism). It is not an illness, it is a condition.
Traditional discipline and social norms don't really apply to people with AS. You only can help them to function in the society.
 

artistinspired

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Asperger's Syndrome, thanks for the suggestion i didn't look into that.




<LIST>

  • <LI>
  • Problems with eye contact, facial expressions, body postures, or gestures (nonverbal communication)</LI>
    <LI>
  • Singled out by other children as "weird" or "strange"</LI>
    <LI>
  • Difficulty developing relationships with children their own age</LI>
    <LI>
  • Inability to respond emotionally in normal social interactions</LI>
    <LI>
  • Not flexible about routines or rituals</LI>
    <LI>
  • Lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people</LI>
    <LI>
  • Do not express pleasure at other people's happiness</LI>
    <LI>
  • Preoccupied with parts of whole objects</LI>
    <LI>
  • Repetitive behaviors, including repetitive behavior that injures themselves</LI>
    <LI>
  • Repetitive finger flapping, twisting, or whole body movements</LI>
    <LI>
  • Unusually intense preoccupation with narrow areas of interest, such as obsession with train schedules, phone books, or collections of objects</LI>
</LIST>
Nothing in here to this extreme at all with her. I've been around autistic people, mild to major cases. It really is just the three things, the social issues (she is good with kids in family and can communicate well when calm), the food use for boredom or upset and the fits. There is no repetitive issues or other behaviorial obsessions. She loves travel, loves to be spontaneous, it is boredom she can't stand.

I have been researching the last two days all over the place.
At this point i'm concerned with ADD (not adhd as she is not hyperactive at all)
There are a lot of symptoms with ADD that fit, from the boredom with things to the fits, to the agressive or angry behavior.

I want to thank all of you who responded.

We are starting with IA Dads suggestion first. This very well could be us not being consistant enough in how we handle it, and i want to go that route to see if it is parenting failure.

Her father and I are sticking to one single thing to tackle this. Staying calm and putting her seperate from everyone till she calms down. Communication after. Nothing else. I also spoke to her about how when this happens she will be sitting alone (safe) until she can calm down. I also talked to her about seeing a doctor. We are going to try this new approach for a few weeks. If it doesn't get better the doc is the next step. She didn't like that idea, the doctor, but i told her flat out that if this keeps happening, it isn't good for her and we need to see if a doctor can help.

This is Amanda:

 

sbattisti

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My story:

My son had classic ADHD symptoms when he was younger - seven, eight, nine years old. He was a good kid, but just couldn't sit still, and couldn't concentrate. He was bright, so he'd do well in school, but he'd finish his work early then disrupt everyone else. He'd run right across the street in traffic 30 seconds after being told not to, knowing that it was wrong, he just couldn't control himself. He'd have violent emotional outbursts (though not to the level you described). And even worse, it was horrible for Chris, because he didn't WANT to misbehave, and get yelled at, and get in trouble at school. It was miserable for his self-esteem. He thought he was an awful person. :(

Like you, my then-wife and I totally resisted having him looked at for possible medication. We thought it was over-diagnosed, and people were too quick to medicate. Finally, we reached our wits' end, and took him to an ADHD specialist. She ran through our intake paperwork, interviewed Chris, and told us, "Your son is a POSTER CHILD for ADHD medication." We put him on medication, and it was like night and day almost immediately. We got the good aspects of our son without the hyperactivity and inability to listen. It was really a godsend. We were like "Why the hell didn't we do this before??" (Oddly, I felt the same about our divorce many years later... :D)

He stayed on medication until just this past year, when he was 14. It was tremendously noticeable. When he was on the meds, he rarely had ANY issues at school or with us. If he missed his meds, even for a day, it was brutally obvious.

Anyway, I say all of that not to convince you that your daughter has ADHD. My point is simply, don't let your worries about over-diagnosis or prevalence of medication prevent you from seeking medical advice. There is a REASON medication exists, and in many cases it can make a HUGE impact. I would suggest taking your daughter to a medical doctor who specializes in these sorts of things.

Good luck!

~Steve
 

artistinspired

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Steve, that was great feedback. Thank you so much. I completey related to several of the things you said. After the fact she hates that she acts this way, she gets down on herself something awful and will say things like i'm just stupid etc. Hence me worrying about self-esteem issues :/ (wich if i look at it would explain the food thing, and the beat head on the wall thing, like anger at herself) I tell her i understand, always accept her apology and try to communicate through it afterwards, making sure i tell her no matter what i always always love her, but i don't want her to go through it anymore.

She doesn't display any real intense hyperactivity. She is wiggly though. Agression definately, she loves tether ball, she can hit it as hard as she wants and likes that.

After spring break i will sit down with her dad and go through some of this with him. I see what you are saying, if meds really helped her quality of life, it would be worth it.
 

sbattisti

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It's also important to note that disorders like ADHD can affect kids very differently. For example, many people associate ADHD with school problems. Chris was always a great student and did well in class. He just couldn't sit still once he was done. There is also a difference between ADHD (with the hyperactivity) and ADD (without the hyperactivity).

Again, I think you should have your daughter looked at for ALL behavioral issues, not just ADHD, but I only have experience with ADHD.
 

artistinspired

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I get ya. She also is incredibly intelligent with school itself. She gets above average marks and loves learning, her homework is not a problem and currently she is really into science and math. She told me last night that she got four questions right on Jeopardy and was all excited about it. Comprehension of educational matters has never been an issue, comprehension about social issues and people issues is. We have never had disruption issues in class during learning on any level, it is generally play time issues. (during conference this last time we were told she got mad at a kid for saying something rude to her and threw a pencil at his head, she says it was accident but i know better, a couple years ago a boy was teasing her on the bus ride for several days and she kicked him in the nuts) i admit i stifled laughter at that, boys picked on me a lot in school too. but not where she could hear me because physical aggression towards others, no matter what is happening, is not okay.

I would just set up an appointment (or have her dad do it where he lives) for an over view first. I'm of course no doctor, and ADD made more sense from what i have been looking through the last couple days. again, thanks.
 

superrod2010

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We have been experiencing something very similar with our 7 yr old boy. Very bright and talented. above his "level" in reading math and excels at Piano if he wants to with very little effort. He is truly gifted and smart but gets bored easily at the mundane things that are required for school and of course telling him no is a major problem.

I do suggest you have her see a therapist before a doctor. We called a few before we decided on one and may make a change due to insurance issues but it has really helped us a lot to understand what is going on. She thinks it is likely an issue like bipolar. Her name is Joanne Larsen and she is a published author. You might try looking her up online and maybe even look for her articles for the Deseret News in Salt Lake City. She was a columnist for them.

She has talked to us and listened well while taking notes. she has been doing therapy for 40+ years and knows the symptoms well. She has stated that there are some good non addictive mood drugs available for this and has recommended we get him on some if we feel it is needed.

It has helped us a ton to understand that he is not just "angry" but that he has some chemical issues. It makes a lot of sense too because his "tantrums" never make sense lately. It is a complete <I>Jekyll</I> &amp; <I>Hyde</I> kind of thing.

Understanding that it is something a bit out of his control helps us cope and helps us be more patient. I think talking to a therapist is a better start than just a doctor. Sometimes insurance will cover that and it will help you understand what is going on. I suggest getting some recommendations and interview each place to see how long the Dr has been practicing with children and if they share your values.

I wish you luck with it and I'll pray for you. I know it is tough. Our son has some very trying times and we are still learning to deal with it. We have just started the therapy recently and have not got him on meds yet but we are planning on it. He needs the help and he knows it. It's just horrible to see hims suffer like this and to see the confusion in his eyes as well.
 

superrod2010

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sbattisti said:
It's also important to note that disorders like ADHD can affect kids very differently. For example, many people associate ADHD with school problems. Chris was always a great student and did well in class. He just couldn't sit still once he was done. There is also a difference between ADHD (with the hyperactivity) and ADD (without the hyperactivity).

Again, I think you should have your daughter looked at for ALL behavioral issues, not just ADHD, but I only have experience with ADHD.
I wanted to mention one other thing that many therapists don't recognize or talk about that ours did. She mentioned that these disorders are not all a cut and dry thing. They are all related and many times your child might have symptoms from more than one of the "diagnosis". She has often seen children diagnosed with ADHD when they were more likely leaning toward bipolar. She mentioned Depakot as a good option for mood enhancement. Might be worth looking up for more information.
 

Andriamomof3

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Just whatever you do do not blame yourself! Its hard bt very impotant to remember that. Sorry I cant be more help
 

TabascoNatalie

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artistinspired said:
Nothing in here to this extreme at all with her. I've been around autistic people, mild to major cases.
It doesn't have to be extreme. People with AS can appear very normal and well adjusted, just there are certain things that they will never get over. If you know for sure, then you can work on strategies how to respond.

I also talked to her about seeing a doctor. We are going to try this new approach for a few weeks. If it doesn't get better the doc is the next step. She didn't like that idea, the doctor, but i told her flat out that if this keeps happening, it isn't good for her and we need to see if a doctor can help.
please, don't threaten her with doctors. first, you'll probably have to see one anyways. not necessarily for medication, just for a clearer picture. it is for her well-being, not for punishment. second, doctors are not wolves -- they won't bite. you don't want your child to be afraid of a healthcare specialist.

a couple years ago a boy was teasing her on the bus ride for several days and she kicked him in the nuts) i admit i stifled laughter at that, boys picked on me a lot in school too. but not where she could hear me because physical aggression towards others, no matter what is happening, is not okay.
it is no disorder that she defends herself. it may be "against the norm" (as "nice girls never fight") but maybe necessary in certain cases :wink:

ps. if she kicks a boy, she should kick elsewhere. kicking in the nuts can cause an injury.