Respect from extended family...

Cedar

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Feb 29, 2012
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I'll put this in the step-parenting forum because my perspective is of a step-parent in this situation.
We are a couple, living together for a few years, in a relationship for almost 4 years, raising a young child from her previous marriage.
For many months, we have been dealing with a lot of conflict and negativity from extended family (if I can call it that), namely her father and sister.
To break it down and make a long story short , her dad played a significant supportive role when she was going through a divorce. He also happens to be an "I'm always right" strong personality with a strong sense of entitlement in his role as a parent of adult children and his grandparental role. It's not too hard for me to relate to as my own father has a strong personality. As do I. Herein lies the foundation of our conflict.
Perhaps other step-parents understand the difficulties of stepping into an existing family, however young, and taking on parental roles. I have done this because I love my partner and her son. His dad still does play a role in his life, is local, and has visits, but sole parenting responsibilities fall on her/us as the childs main household. And it is legally stated.
I believe that once her father saw his role waning a bit, perhaps after we moved in together, it was very difficult to see another male (fatherly perhaps) figure picking up the slack where her ex left it. Instead of embracing the new found support of a loving partner, her father took offense to it and called me out as a master manipulator, puppeteer. Then started threatening emails to me, which I immediately put to a stop by asking for no further communication and threatening a restraining order. Unfortunately, my partner, as someone who through most of her life has been influenced by the overbearing behavior of a strong and willful parent, found it more difficult to cut off the hate laden emails outlining everything she as a parent was doing wrong for her child. We endured this behavior until we found it so toxic we could not see how in that climate we could facilitate visits between our son and grandparent. Of course, things got worse. Her sister, with similar aged kids decided to jump on her dad's bandwagon and while perhaps using a slightly less offensive tone, has dished out plenty of "you are doing this all wrong", "your child will suffer".

I suppose the dilemma is, we do see that putting children in the middle of adult issues is not great. However, how can one manage a visit between your child and another relative that you cannot even speak with? Don't you have a responsibility as a parent to make sure this relative does not create a toxic environment around your child because of their issues with you?
So far, the grandfather has refused all suggestions of counseling, together or separately, or any kind of mediation. He has not presented any alternatives to our suggestions to try to mend our relationship, or at least get to a point where there is some common understanding. Moreover, his issues have infected the relationship we have with her sister and made it harder to facilitate visits between our child and his cousins. They do get to play, but not as often as everyone would like as the grandfather still plays an active role in his cousins lives.

So, what can a parent or core family do when faced with these challenges. I can't help but thing things would be easier if we lived on opposite sides of the country, but that is not so. We have common friends, and family in our city. There are a few family functions per year, like holidays and birthdays that make things difficult and uncomfortable. We've tried the best we can so far, but outside resistance has been consistent.
What can you do when your outside family does not respect the choices you make as a parent? When they dislike who you've chosen as partner and co-parent to your child? Understandably, using our child as a carrot does not seem ideal, but we feel there is no other leverage to use to have control over the situation. A grandfather is not the same as a father. I believe we have the right, or at least she does, as a parent, to restrict contact if certain conditions of respect are not met. If someones behavior is out of control and their communication is only hurtful and disrespectful. It is hard to trust someone with responsibilities of guardianship when there is lack of positive communication and such a high level of dysfunction.
I admit if it were the child's father in the place of the grandfather, everything would be different, unless perhaps the actions were directly harmful to the child's health and safety. But it is not. We are dealing with a parent's father, and a parents sibling who seem resistant to all things that are not done in accordance with "their way".

Any input would be appreciated. This is a very hard situation for us. Thanks for taking the time to read.

Cedar
 

Cedar

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Is this in the wrong forums subject? I would have thought I'd get some ideas by now.
 

bssage

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No its in the right place. Sometimes stuff gets bumped down and people only look at the different forums last active post.

Your op has a couple of details that would make responding more specific to the post.

Age of the step son?

age of you and your wife (roughly)

Length of time between divorce and meeting you?

And (I am making an assumption) how much your wife or you owe Grandpa? A better question might be. How much does he think you owe him. I know this might come off as being a little insulting. Its not meant to be. It may go a long way in how GP perceives your families station in life. And definitely effect the advice given.

Also your actual question gets buried in the post. I think the short version is. What do you do with the grandfather in law and sister in law from hell? Is that right?

Its hard to express tone in a post. I hope you dont think I am coming down on you. Not meaning to. Just trying to help you get responses.
 
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Mom2all

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I think it would help to know what kind of things that they say to you. Its hard to have a opinion about what you and your honey should do without knowing what it is exactly that is offensive. What do they say, for instance, is going to ruin the child's life?
 

Cedar

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Feb 29, 2012
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bssage said:
Age of the step son?

age of you and your wife (roughly)

Length of time between divorce and meeting you?
6 yo. We are early 30s. Separated less than a year before we met. Divorce finalized just before we met. So, I was the next serious thing after the divorce.
Divorce happened because ex got into drugs. (to put it simply)

bssage said:
And (I am making an assumption) how much your wife or you owe Grandpa? A better question might be. How much does he think you owe him. I know this might come off as being a little insulting. Its not meant to be. It may go a long way in how GP perceives your families station in life. And definitely effect the advice given.
That is an interesting question. If "owe" pertains to money, then absolutely none. No financial ties. If it pertains to sentiment, then a few details outlining the role of GP after her separation may be relevant. He played a major supportive role (tho not financial). She moved in with him to escape the bad situation with ex. That was 6 months but hard, as he's (GP) not an easy person to get along with. She got her own place and shortly after we met. GP continued to play a supportive role in childcare with consistent weekly visits averaging 1 day per week with overnights typical. His personality is one that "he knows best" and often his ideas of "how to raise a child" conflict with those of his daughters for their children. He would also take initiative and often ignore parental input that was different from his own view.
Are children in imminent danger in his care? No. But one has to wonder if the dynamic is healthy for a core family, especially a fractured one where the biological father still plays a role and there is a step-parent involved as well.
So, he may believe he is "owed" the role he feels entitled to in his grandson's life. It is my view that whatever role that should be is determined by the mother and father of the child. She is sole custodian.


bssage said:
Also your actual question gets buried in the post. I think the short version is. What do you do with the grandfather in law and sister in law from hell? Is that right?
Yes. Advice on how to set up boundaries. How to navigate and communicate with care with people who are highly judgmental and irrational. Obviously I have my own ideas, but they need to be collaborative and when my partner has been shaped by this dynamic throughout most of her life, even through adulthood, it is hard to stand up to these people, even if in your heart you believe they are out of line. She had courage to leave her ex when she did, before it got worse. The idea of alienating her closest relatives is no small thing. They may have helped her get out of her last situation. But now they want her out of her current situation (with me), based on their opinions of me as a human and the perceived influence I have over their daughter/sister.
 

Cedar

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Mom2all said:
I think it would help to know what kind of things that they say to you. Its hard to have a opinion about what you and your honey should do without knowing what it is exactly that is offensive. What do they say, for instance, is going to ruin the child's life?
To her:
You are being controlled and manipulated by your psychopath partner. You are not making good choices for your son. I hope you wake up and see that I am right and you are wrong. Your choices upset all of our family. All of our family disagrees with your choices. If (son) cannot see his GF, he will grow up to hate and resent you.

To me: Similar to above but more direct baiting to encourage some kind of confrontation. He threatened my life in an email to which I immediately asked him to cut off all communication on the recommendation of the police. I guess they didn't see the threat as serious enough to confront him but said if it continued, there would be a visit. After I told him to stop communication, he honored that but doubled up on his daughter and often sent her emails that were obviously intended to for me.

That said, all negativity thus far has been directed at me, her or us. Not at child. So, ruin the child's life? It's complicated. I feel like when someone causes a high level of stress in a relationship whose primary focus is providing a healthy upbringing for a child, that will affect the child. I think we are well suited to give our child a great upbringing with or without the involvement of his GF. Separated: Who knows? Fighting and stressed out: Likely not great for child.

There is also lots of counter productive activity of closely related family members who share the anti-spouse sentiment such as forwarding emails to one another and involving each other in conversations that are not directed to them by the initiator (us). A lot of 2-faced behavior that has made it difficult for me to trust anyone who has echoed any of the strong feelings of her dad, namely her sister but also mother (divorced from dad), and ex husband.

Communication on our part is often carefully planned in email form when having to do with important issues. Often every sentence and word is picked apart and spun into a negative way. To such an extent I am convinced that they want to be fixed on their point of view no-matter what. Kind of like trying to convince a hard core Republican to believe in a Liberal politician, or vice-versa. You know, people get fixed on a view and they look for things that only support their view and ignore any thoughtful arguments to the contrary.

I acknowledge that all this is probably nothing new to human nature with respect to coupling. That is why "in-laws" get such a bad rap in general.

So, really, the question is, how to handle it in a way that keeps as much peace, or at least allows you to sustain the peace in your home, which I believe to be of primary importance, especially when raising a child. To me, that comes first. And theoretically it may be a sound statement, but practically, there can be all kinds of problems, emotional or otherwise that come with putting a family member "in-check". My partner is not experienced with this character trait. She is non-confrontational to say the least. However, internally, our relationship has suffered through confrontations with one another about how to handle this situation.

It is conceivable to me that a person would rather divorce or separate from a spouse if the only other option was to lose a meaningful connection (perhaps permanently) with a close blood relative like a sibling or parent. However given the level of judgement and negativity thrown at us that has been absolutely out of line, I don't see how you wouldn't want to preserve your own family for the sake of your child rather than risk continuing the status quo of dysfunction with your family without any professional intervention (counseling). Btw, her and I have gone to counseling and her family has been absolutely opposed to participating.
 

Mom2all

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I guess I should have been a little more clear. What about you do they say is controlling. What are they saying is manipulative? I can't really give advice on how I would handle them if I don't understand where they are trying to come at you from. If there is really nothing to anything they say... I'd give up contact with them altogether. If it is specific things to be addressed, then maybe I'd handle it differently.
 

bssage

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I am getting the kids off to school. Need a little time to think.

But this is not a uncommon question. The specifics may change but over the years something like this pops up. Searching the forum for inlaws, hell, or just inlaws would likely turn up some related posts. I want to do some thinkin and I do my best thinking around 08:30. So will get back soon.
 

bssage

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Cedar

This is all my opinion nothing more:

The problem I am having advising to your post, is the way it was written. That is you seem like a reasonable guy that has probably tried everything I would suggest. Your post is both thoughtful and introspective.

So you have probably already tried some version of what will be suggested.

Its my guess that there are two things working against you. First is your wife is daddy's girl. And he would likely to literally do anything to protect her against threats to her, real or perceived.

The second is that I think her dad, sister and herself <U>believe</U> that there is a debt owed, A toll to pay for the family trust and respect.

Your issue is either how to pay the toll. Or whether to pay it at all. I dont think there is much to be done about the "daddies girl" IMHO that has to come from her.

Paying the toll is problematic. My guess is that her previous husband paid the toll in someway, then screwed it up so bad that the toll was raised to the point its is almost out of reach. So you now are not only in a position to prove you can be a good husband/father. But that you will remain a good husband/father for life. That's a tall order brother.

You can respond (if you choose to pay the toll) in one of two ways. The first being simply being a good husband/father for life. Yeah I know not much of a break there.

The second has something to do with statistics that I used to use in manufacturing. In that setting we would have to prove to say, GM that the parts we were going to supply would last the lifetime of the car. The problem with that is the same problem you have. Time. The solution was something called the Weibull analysis.
the Weibull distribution gives a distribution for which the failure rate is proportional to a power of time.
The short simple version is a fairly large number of parts that surpasses the requirements by so much that it is reasonable to assume the will meet the lifetime requirement. The Shorter Simpler version: A grand gesture on your part. Or a fair amount of lesser grand gesture's that say "This is how committed I am to this family".

You could do other things cutting him and sis off ect... For sure to cause tension between the wife and you. I think either you are trying to avoid these or just looking for support. I wouldn't fault you for doing them its just a hard row to plow. There are a number of things you could do. And that is just my Opinion.
 
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Cedar

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Mom2all said:
I guess I should have been a little more clear. What about you do they say is controlling. What are they saying is manipulative? I can't really give advice on how I would handle them if I don't understand where they are trying to come at you from. If there is really nothing to anything they say... I'd give up contact with them altogether. If it is specific things to be addressed, then maybe I'd handle it differently.
Ok. Well, to start, consider the dynamic of a single person coming into a relationship where the partner has a child. Maybe this is a typical step-parent situation. Or maybe typical is where both parties have children. But my situation is the first.
There was definitely a period of courtship with us. We did not move in together right away, or anything like that. I knew what I was getting into to the extent that there was another parent (ex) involved. I knew the involvement of the local extended family. But I probably didn't have a clear sense of the potential of such volatility in conflict in this family. I mean, I come from divorced family, ugly fighting, kids in the middle. But think my partner's passive nature was able to mitigate the intensity of any potential disagreements or overstepping of boundaries until it just got too much to bear. When you are that easy, to the point of being pushed over with a light breeze, I am sure less conflicts occur because the pusher always gets their way, or their voice is always heard.
Some of the problems we have had that were shared with extended family and probably used as fuel for their fire was based on my desire to be a more integral part of the decision making process of her son. Ironically, these criticisms of me or our relationship don't come from her ex. Likely because he has had a lot on his plate with respect to his own issues.

Discipline methods have been a topic of contention. Not like "to spank or not to spank", nobody spanks in our home. More like, lets try to change the dynamic so that I am not always the enforcer, and you are not always the softie. More balance. Another issue is just general communication, like keeping me in the loop of plans made involving childcare or playdate scenarios with family, friends, ex. Another one would be feeling like I am the last possible childcare option, a back up to all, because she doesn't want to feel like she depends on me. Perhaps that is a defense mechanism from getting out of an abusive situation. It's hard to be a step-parent. But its harder when you constantly feel like an outsider as well. And I think when you make the decision to make a life together, like move in, start talking about buying a house, talking about the idea of having a baby, and doing the work that is required to raise a child... I think my expectations of inclusion are quite appropriate. It is hard when you feel like your positions or opinions related to a healthy home and child rearing are not taken with as much weight as those forcefully presented by her dad, sister, whoever else. Why? Not because they have proven to be awesome role models. But because to contradict them is too risky. The perceived backlash too great.
Her family believes that any move by her out of the ordinary must be because I am pushing it. "She is too soft to stand up to us, so when she does, it must be him, not her". I do encourage her to stand up for what she wants, not to give in so easily. But when she wants so badly not to raise issues where they seem important, she is put in a position to stand up to me about not standing up! Not necessarily because its not right, but because she believes the cost too great. Meanwhile, our relationship takes lots of damage.
Maybe we need to learn how to make this more of a distance run than a sprint to what feels right. It's just hard when it is so difficult for your partner to craft a plan or strategy, long or short term to achieve the outcome.
 

Mom2all

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Cedar said:
When you are that easy, to the point of being pushed over with a light breeze, I am sure less conflicts occur because the pusher always gets their way, or their voice is always heard.
I am in no way saying her family is right in what they say. In fact, I still have no idea exactly what issues they've had other than a hint at a situation, I'm still quite confused what they have said about you specifically, except to say you are controlling. That being said, This quote stands out to me. You hinted that her past relationships were perhaps controlling and unhappy. Perhaps her family is concerned because she is able to be pushed over with a "light breeze" and want her to find her voice. If the past is often repeated in the future, perhaps they are scared of her choices. That being said...

Some of the problems we have had that were shared with extended family and probably used as fuel for their fire was based on my desire to be a more integral part of the decision making process of her son.
This sounds like to me that when she has a different view from you, she has went to them for advice or to vent. Her "voice" being heard in their circle and reconfirming to them that they need to push her to stand up to you. Does that make sense?

My Mom was a victim of domestic abuse. I'm sooooo not saying this is your case.. but just sharing. But.. me as someone who loved her was constantly telling her to stand up for herself. Not to cower but to find some strength. She'd vent to me about how people treated her and never tell them. I felt it was my job to remind her everyday to say "No" or to walk away when she didn't want to be there. Not with her abuser who we handled quite different, but with other people in her life. She let everyone walk all over her... because it was her nature. I knew in my heart that some of the people who hurt her feelings never had a clue they were because she never told them. But it still made me mad with them because I loved her enough to think that they should have known. Perhaps they are trying to empower her also. You, being her future, where better to start than in the beginning to set the groundwork for her to be an equal part of your relationship.
 

Cedar

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Mom2all said:
You hinted that her past relationships were perhaps controlling and unhappy. Perhaps her family is concerned because she is able to be pushed over with a "light breeze" and want her to find her voice. If the past is often repeated in the future, perhaps they are scared of her choices. That being said...

This sounds like to me that when she has a different view from you, she has went to them for advice or to vent. Her "voice" being heard in their circle and reconfirming to them that they need to push her to stand up to you. Does that make sense?

My Mom was a victim of domestic abuse. I'm sooooo not saying this is your case.. but just sharing. But.. me as someone who loved her was constantly telling her to stand up for herself. Not to cower but to find some strength.
I don't think her past relationships have been controlling. I think in her last meaningful and long term relationship (with ex and father of son) was not like that. It was his involvement with drugs that was the center of that drama and broken relationship.

I don't deny that my personality is strong. I am a take charge kind of person. I don't BS, or generally waffle. I am direct. If I set my mind to something, I focus and try my best to accomplish my goals. I am a pretty passionate person. For whatever combination of reasons, my partner and I are attracted to one another and have gotten this far in our relationship.

I feel like whatever the dynamic of the relationships or pressures of outside opinions, we owe it to ourselves, to our home and son to focus on our own will, environment and decisions first.

I am sure there are some yin and yang or relatively lopsided personality relationships out there. Some of those are the most successful in my opinion. Obviously, communicating and working together, whatever the personality dynamic is key. And yes, we are still working on optimizing that.
There is no abuse going on. We have some intense arguments at times, generally dealing with this issue of family involvement. She is financially stable enough to leave our relationship if she wanted. And there are supporters in our life that would help with childcare. So, it is not like she is cornered in some desperate situation. We both want our relationship to work. She wants her family to be more accepting of her decisions.

How often do family members, particularly parents have fear surrounding the choices of their kids, no mater how old they are? When you are in your 30s, I think parental advice might have to be put in its place. There is a special role for it, and I still involve my parents in my life, but they will always be parents an their influence should not heavily disrupt the life you are trying to build in your own partnership. Throughout all of this, there is no evidence that the health and wellbeing of our son has been affected. He has not seen his GF except for coincidentally over the last year. We want this to change, but on our terms and not on anyone elses. We would rather have healthy relationships around us and for our son than awkward and internally disruptive ones. We want to be around positive and supportive people. Life is too short to be suffering the alternatives.
 

cybele

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I agree with you that once youre in your 30's it should only be advice, not interference. It does sound to me as if Dad is having a hard time seeing his daughter growing up, saw her make a decision that didnt work out with her previous partner and has now gone "No, not anymore, no man is going to hurt my little princess" of course, when your daughter is in your 30's thats not the best mindset to have and is setting her up to fail.

Unfortunately, being her parents, I do think that it is up to her, if you two are on the same page with this, then she needs to go over and speak to her Dad by herself and say "This is my life, this is my child, this is the man I love and you need to respect this, we love you, you are Grandpa so you are always welcome, but Grandpa needs to support our family, not try to tear it apart"

I dont think there is an aweful lot you can do yourself that wont make the situation worse, it needs to come from her.
 

Mom2all

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Then perhaps her meek personality has opened the door to them thinking they can tell her whats best for her. Perhaps you should look into a couples therapy. Maybe someone that has no vested interest in her life giving her advice on how to take control of her life back would be good for her. That way its not her having to choose between 2 men she loves. It would be her learning from someone separate how to decide on her own.
 

Cedar

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Mom2all said:
Then perhaps her meek personality has opened the door to them thinking they can tell her whats best for her. Perhaps you should look into a couples therapy. Maybe someone that has no vested interest in her life giving her advice on how to take control of her life back would be good for her. That way its not her having to choose between 2 men she loves. It would be her learning from someone separate how to decide on her own.

We have gone to therapy. I suppose we could make it a regular thing, like once a month to work on issues that pop up with frequency, things like visits with other family and how we communicate about them and how she represents her wishes to them when necessary.
When we have talked to a councilor, it has been helpful. Definitely less intense than discussing it one on one (she and I). But its expensive too, so one has to think about that.
 

Cedar

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cybele said:
I agree with you that once youre in your 30's it should only be advice, not interference. It does sound to me as if Dad is having a hard time seeing his daughter growing up, saw her make a decision that didnt work out with her previous partner and has now gone "No, not anymore, no man is going to hurt my little princess" of course, when your daughter is in your 30's thats not the best mindset to have and is setting her up to fail.

Unfortunately, being her parents, I do think that it is up to her, if you two are on the same page with this, then she needs to go over and speak to her Dad by herself and say "This is my life, this is my child, this is the man I love and you need to respect this, we love you, you are Grandpa so you are always welcome, but Grandpa needs to support our family, not try to tear it apart"

I dont think there is an aweful lot you can do yourself that wont make the situation worse, it needs to come from her.
Yes. I agree with your thoughts and your outlook for the future. It does need to come from her. So, that is where her and I need to have the most understanding. I am not going to be very happy knowing that my partner walks on eggshells around her family because they don't like the life she has chosen for herself and her child (with me).
It feels like repeating old and counter-productive patterns. I know that family issues are delicate, but it is very hard to stand by and witness this kind of imbalance and disrespect. That said, I don't want to have a relationship with my partner where there is equivalent imbalance and disrespect. So, one has to be careful. "Choose you battles", be patient, all that.
I think if we had a stronger social life around who our son played with as in exposed him to other potential playmates rather than relying on family members, this would be better in the way that there would be less emotional interference when breaks have to be taken during poor behavior from family. This would allow for proper reflection and potentially improved communication and resolution. But his cousins (her sisters children) have played such a big role in his socializing until recently. Its been a very easy "go-to" for child play. So, equally, they can be used as a tool of manipulation by her sister who might want things to go her way.
The family dynamic was very strong during her breakup with her ex, so that bond can be emphasized by them to highlight a "change" when it seems she is becoming more independent and making decisions that seem to be supportive of her new family agenda (with her and I and son) rather than an agenda that her father and/or sister feel is important to them.
My partner does not tell her sister how to raise her children. She doesn't tell her dad how to live his life. Yet they think they can interject their opinions on something so personal. Perhaps they would have a case if there was some kind of abuse going on, but there is not. Despite some of our emotional ups and downs, she and I have always been free to part ways. We are not connected financially except for recently purchasing a home together, but that was after all this began. We are trying to live a productive life and keep a good perspective on this dynamic with her family. I guess it is easy to imagine that it is different for me than it is for her to deal with. And coming together on a way to handle it, execute a strategy collectively one of the hardest things to do.
 

NancyM

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Hey Ceder:

I have a similar situation but mine is with my MIL who is as bad as your FIL and my SIL who is truly a dangerously disturbed and jealous woman, both of them have always tried to break up my marriage, and constantly manipulate each other into believing things are happening in our life, or anyone's life,that is all about them and these things are simply not happening.
My husband has been battered down by them so much that he just turns it off, but as a result it has never ended. Even after 30 yrs.

What needs to be done is your gf has to put a stop it it. NOT YOU. It will never end until she lets her family know that she will not allow them to disrespect you any longer, that she loves you, and you are an important part of her and her child's life and she values YOUR feelings, needs and thoughts and all of you are a family who will work through any problems or obstacles that cross your paths just like any other family would.

She has to do it. They will never listen to you, to them you are a outsider causing a riff between them and her, you are really powerless without her support of you, and you will fight them until the day you die until she tells them to stop.

I know because it really hasn't happened for me yet. And like I said It will go on forever and ever.

Good luck.
 

Cedar

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NancyM said:
Hey Ceder:

I have a similar situation but mine is with my MIL who is as bad as your FIL and my SIL who is truly a dangerously disturbed and jealous woman, both of them have always tried to break up my marriage, and constantly manipulate each other into believing things are happening in our life, or anyone's life,that is all about them and these things are simply not happening.
My husband has been battered down by them so much that he just turns it off, but as a result it has never ended. Even after 30 yrs.

What needs to be done is your gf has to put a stop it it. NOT YOU. It will never end until she lets her family know that she will not allow them to disrespect you any longer, that she loves you, and you are an important part of her and her child's life and she values YOUR feelings, needs and thoughts and all of you are a family who will work through any problems or obstacles that cross your paths just like any other family would.

She has to do it. They will never listen to you, to them you are a outsider causing a riff between them and her, you are really powerless without her support of you, and you will fight them until the day you die until she tells them to stop.

I know because it really hasn't happened for me yet. And like I said It will go on forever and ever.

Good luck.
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you.