Risk/benefit and Motivation....

[bssage]

I dont really want to get into the spanking thing again. This is kinda core to that issue and may eventually be moved to "debate". With that in mind. Lets see if we cannot keep this to the topic of the post. Less about spanking and more about the decision making behind the act.

I hear intrinsic and extrinsic motivation thrown about a bit.

I am not really sure where my line of thought falls into that. My personal research on those motivations is in its infancy. I believe somewhere within them is a component of "risk analysis" or some thought as to whether or not the acts benefits outweigh the risks. You should be able to see the link to discipline now.

This may account for some of the discrepancy between how I feel about discipline. This is going to sound bad. But I probably spend more time on this. Than time spent determine the value of intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. Right or wrong I would say I am more concerned with the decision to act or not act being a thoughtful decision.

One of my goals as a parent is to help the kids learn how to do value added risk analysis. I want Cole when I am not around to think to himself is the benefit of a given activity/non activity worth the risk. Really I think it applies to just about anything. From what to eat and when to go to bed, To should I steal a car, or smoke a joint.

I hope to teach how to weigh the pro's and con's. And make thoughtful decisions. Yes even thoughtful mistakes. I would prefer that when a mistake was made he would say "I knew there was a chance of that." rather than "I didn't see that coming"

I think while we may not be able to articulate it. We all like to think we play a part in the thought processes our children use when making decisions. Personally I am very deliberate with this. Frequently I will take Cole aside and explain why I choose a particular course of action. I line up the risks across from the benefits. And I show him how I made my decisions. I point out what risks stopped me or how a particular benefit was greater than a specific risk.

Just had to get this out of my head so I can sleep tonight.

 

[parentastic]

Hey bssage, this is a great topic! I'll try to offer some insights, hopefully without falling back into the old spanking argument too much.

I hear intrinsic and extrinsic motivation thrown about a bit.

Yes. It's at the very core of the arguments between behaviorist (like Tad) and more modern parenting approach; i.e., extrinsic motivation is discipline under the traditional sense of the term, while intrinsic motivation promotes self-discipline. The professional literature also refers to an "external locus of control" as opposed to an "internal locus of control".

I am not really sure where my line of thought falls into that. My personal research on those motivations is in its infancy. I believe somewhere within them is a component of "risk analysis" or some thought as to whether or not the acts benefits outweigh the risks. You should be able to see the link to discipline now.

Of course, there is definitely a link!
In fact, I believe that <I>both</I> intrinsic and extrinsic motivation rely on some sort of risk analysis. At one end of the spectrum (from my understanding of this), the pure behaviorist's aim is to change the behavior by making the "risk analysis" a reflex, an automatic reaction (or in scientific term, a <I>conditioning</I>). At the other end of the spectrum, positive parenting rely on a child's inner dialogue and cognitive functions to evaluate the "risk-analysis" in terms of his developing morals, his sense of right or wrong, how it makes other people feel as they develop mutual respect, etc. (I am not putting laissez-faire / permissive parenting in there, as we both know this leads nowhere and is not a good parenting practice).
Anywhere between the two poles, we find parenting practices that expects children to use their <I>inner dialogue</I>, and their cognitive functions, to weight the risks, where as the punishment is part of the "risk analysis".

I.e., the intrinsic motivation would make the child reflect on his own actions and feel not proud of himself. The extrinsic motivation would make the child reflect on whether his actions will make his dad or mom not proud of himself, or worst, how to lie and hide it so they don't find out.

This may account for some of the discrepancy between how I feel about discipline. This is going to sound bad. But I probably spend more time on this. Than time spent determine the value of intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation.

I am not certain I understand what you say here (genuinely, not sarcasm at all here). It sound as if you are saying (correct me if I am wrong) that developing intrinsic motivation takes a lot of time and that parents don't have a lot of time? I am not sure this is what you say here, sorry if I am confusing But yeah, one thing is sure, developing a child's intrinsic motivations is a BIG job and it requires a lot of concerted efforts.
There is an additional factor to add here about neuroscience, more on this below.

One of my goals as a parent is to help the kids learn how to do value added risk analysis. I want Cole when I am not around to think to himself is the benefit of a given activity/non activity worth the risk. Really I think it applies to just about anything. From what to eat and when to go to bed, To should I steal a car, or smoke a joint.

I think that this goal is very, very important. I couldn't agree more!
What you describe here is one of the most important factor to teach a child. And this teaching is a constant work during all of childhood and all of adolescence, because.... see below.

I hope to teach how to weigh the pro's and con's. And make thoughtful decisions. Yes even thoughtful mistakes. I would prefer that when a mistake was made he would say "I knew there was a chance of that." rather than "I didn't see that coming".
(...) I think while we may not be able to articulate it. We all like to think we play a part in the thought processes our children use when making decisions.

...and here is now the big thing I wanted to say.

The ability to weight risks in your head <I>before you act impulsively</I> is a task that is performed by the upper region of the brain, the pre-frontal cortex.

However, recent advances in neuroscience has shown that this part of the brain matures LAST. Human beings are born with an immature pre-frontal cortex with nearly no connections to the rest of the brain. It becomes "active" at the start of adolescence and then it slowly gains new connections and fully reaches maturation around 25 years old.

This is not to say that children cannot see the risks. They can. But they can only do so reasonably well <I>after the fact</I>. But to use this skill in action, before they act, is <I>very challenging</I> because their brain is not ready yet for it. The more you train them to think afterward about what they did, how they could have acted differently, what the risks were and what the risks might be next time, the more you help them build these connections. And each time they try something, and they live the natural (not artificial!) consequence of their actions, they also build these connections and it helps them recognize a similar situation next time.

This is why punishment (and of course, even more so, spanking) is kind of useless. If we forget all the negative it can do (like eroding the attachment, etc), really, it won't be able to develop their brain faster. Worst, it may hinder (or slow) the brain development because it is the safety and strength of the attachment that determines how fast the brain matures. Which explains why some grown men and women, even at 40, may never have fully developed their ability to weight future consequences to their actions.

Personally I am very deliberate with this. Frequently I will take Cole aside and explain why I choose a particular course of action. I line up the risks across from the benefits. And I show him how I made my decisions. I point out what risks stopped me or how a particular benefit was greater than a specific risk.

I think this is awesome and wonderful and I am deeply convinced that doing this kind of exercise with Cole on a regular basis, both about what he did, or can do, or what you did or can do is a powerful and truly helping exercise that will help him develop his upper cortex region faster and better. And yes, I am also convinced that it can all be done (better in fact) without any spanking or punishment, by developing the intrinsic motivation. Each action already has plenty of real life consequences that can be discussed and analyzed together with the child, no need to add more to it and cause the brain to switch to survival / cortisol / anger mode, where no learning can happen.

 

[singledad]

Very interesting thread.

For me, risk/benefit analysis, motivation and decision making is all closely linked to self-respect.

The way I understand Extrinsic/intrinsic motivation is this (and Nicolas, please correct me if I'm wrong) - extrinsic motivation is when you do something because someone else wants you to, or because you don't want to get in trouble. The downside of fostering extrinsic motivation is the inherent link to the risk of getting caught. ie. You will only get in trouble/upset someone/etc if you get caught.

Intrinsic motivation is when the biggest concern is the effect of your actions on you, and specifically your self-respect. If I do something underhand, even if I don't get caught, I will feel a little less proud of myself. It damages my self-respect. And my self-respect is too precious to me to risk.

The problem is that I'm not sure how to foster this in my daughter. I like the cost/benefit analysis approach, but how do I start to teach that to a 5-year-old?

What I'm currently doing is to
1) model it on a daily basis.
2) explain the reasons why things have to be done, or not done, and I try not to use "because I say so". That's not a good reason for anything. This is big for me - I don't believe in having rules unless breaking that rule will have some sort of negative (natural) consequence.

But somehow, I'm not sure that this is enough.

 

[Jeremy+3]

We are risk/benefit oriented that much, we prefer our children to know why something is wrong or why something is right/good. If our children didn't do something purely to avoid being punished I see that as a failure.

 

[bssage]

We are risk/benefit oriented that much, we prefer our children to know why something is wrong or why something is right/good. If our children didn't do something purely to avoid being punished I see that as a failure.

I understand what your saying Jeremy. And would hypothetically agree.

But I am not sure that is reasonable.

Aren't there things we all do: or dont do specifically because of the risk? Or rather we behave in a way only to avoid punishment. And is this not necessary? I can for sure think of a few things I do. Taxes comes to mind. I have no problem paying my share. But I think if it was not illegal there are many people I know who would not pay. Isnt that really the reason behind most laws and rules? Because people are not intrinsically motivated. If I did not get paid "Extrinsic motivation" I would not show up at my current job.

Drumm rolllll

Is it reasonable for us to hope our children will be intrinsically motivated for every act they do?

 

[bssage]

I am not certain I understand what you say here (genuinely, not sarcasm at all here). It sound as if you are saying (correct me if I am wrong) that developing intrinsic motivation takes a lot of time and that parents don't have a lot of time?

No. I think sometimes you assume that others know what you know and choose to act differently. While that is true at time's. More often than not (just speaking for myself here) I have just not studied the same thing that you studied or read. So it simply had not occurred to me.

The forum is the first place it has really come up for me (intrinsic/extrinsic). That has only happened recently. As I said my quest for knowledge on motivations is in its infancy.

I , and would guess most members are not at all afraid to "put in the time" But rather: Had just not considered it.

My opinions at this point are just starting to form. Because I really dont know much about them (motivation sources).

 

[Mom2all]

Communication. You have to talk to your children about why and be honest. I think everyone on here knows by now I'm pretty hard core about not arguing back. Not being disrespectful is a big thing to me. That being said, all of them know that anything is fair game for conversation/respectable debate. From the time they were little, if they wanted to do something I didn't allow, they could come and talk about to me and we'd discuss it. The dinner table is open conversation time to and they've all used it to discuss something they wanted to us to reconsider. Or by knocking on the bedroom so we could talk alone.

I don't think its enough just to tell them what you think without letting them think for themselves.

For instance.. Jess wanted to hang out with boys/girls like the other kids in middle school were doing. I wanted her to be 16 to go places with boys. When she asked why I didn't trust her I had he make a list of reasons it was important to her and I would too. When we talked about it again it was surprisingly the same reasons. She wanted to be like everyone else at middle school, she wanted to feel a part of the crowd. I didn't want the pressure of her peers to influence her, and at her age I felt like it was not a matter of trusting her but knowing mentally what a girl her age could get into by accident.

We talked about some of the things I was scared of and some of the things I knew had happened to girls her age. She amazingly admitted that several of her friends had already had sex and tried drinking and smoking pot. So we then talked about how to prevent being sucked into that vortex of peer pressure.

Eventually we decided on a weekly Friday night church youth group that gave her time away with people her age but gave me the security of knowing there were adults there monitoring. Some freedom, but within limits we could both live with.

I just told you all of that just to tell you this. If they know that there is always honesty and open conversation to anything, they will use it. Sometimes they'd shocked the pee out of me with the questions or stories they've told but I'm glad they came to me. Its my norm to task them to bring me the pro's and con's of any given situation. The use the INTERNET or believe it or not ask friends and family for opinions for their own little statistical research... and more often then not they figure out the answer before I give my own.

 

[parentastic]

Is it reasonable for us to hope our children will be intrinsically motivated for every act they do?

So here is the deal, put in a very simple way (without all the additional details you can also research):

Each time you motivate someone with extrinsic motivation, you reduce his or her intrinsic motivation.
This is THE big discovery related to intrinsic / extrinsic motivation.
Here a short clip from Alfie Kohn about this notion.

Each time you pay your teen to do his chores, you reduce his internal motivation to do his chores of his own accord <I>because it's the right thing to do as a member of the family</I>. Instead you are developing the habit of expecting the reward for doing chores.

Each time you reward your child for doing his school homework, he is less likely to build a good work habit <I>when you are not around to offer the external compensation</I>.

Each time you punish for a bad action, you take away the focus on <I>why the action was bad</I> and reduce the likelihood of reflections on <I>how the child felt internally</I> about it, by focusing the child on <I>avoiding</I> the punishment next time (sneakiness, hiding it, lying).

Yes, we pay our taxes because there are consequences to not paying them... But we are also adults who have already built our sense of morality and who have already decided what motivates us internally, and we are already equipped with a fully developed brain - not a maturing one. Besides, the more the government forces us to pay our taxes through unfair fines and pressure, the less we actually <I>want</I> to do it, because we perceive it as unfair and attacking our freedom.

on the flip side, I don't speed on the highway because I don't want to endanger people, not because I could be caught and have to pay a fine. I don't murder people because i have an internal drive to do good and do no harm - not because I am thinking about my personal consequences. There are thousands of similar situations.

So even as adults, there are things we still do (most of them actually!) because of an internal drive. And since the government won't stop the external consequences if I don't pay my taxes, the question of my internal drive to pay taxes isn't too much in the question (although, absent of taxes, I would still want to contribute to the common good, but that's a political question best left aside from this debate!)

Back to children - the key here is not so much that everything should be driven by internal motivation. But rather, the question is (IMO): what do you want your child to <I>want</I> to do by himself, of his own motivation, <I>when you are not around anymore and there is no more external incentive?</I>

 

[MNDad]

Communication. You have to talk to your children about why and be honest. I think everyone on here knows by now I'm pretty hard core about not arguing back. Not being disrespectful is a big thing to me.

This is a big deal for us, too, and we try to take the same approach as you. For example, if I catch Morgan lying, a lot of the time I will simply ask him to explain <I>why</I> he lied. I make sure to tell him it's OK to be honest with me about <I>anything</I>. At this point, it seems to have helped him cut back on lying and other inappropriate behavior.

I think the risk/benefit assessment is very important, but I feel it's something they learn fairly naturally, especially if you make them aware you're available to listen to them.

 

[tadamsmar]

At one end of the spectrum (from my understanding of this), the pure behaviorist's aim is to change the behavior by making the "risk analysis" a reflex, an automatic reaction (or in scientific term, a <I>conditioning</I>).

Just to clarify a bit. <I>Classical </I>conditioning was about reflexes/automatic responses, as in Pavlov's dog learning to salivate the sound of a bell. The other type is o<I>perant</I> conditioning. It is about actions and the effects of actions. It's about controlling the effect of an action. Like a rat pushing a lever and getting (or not getting) a food pellet.

Relative to parenting, if a parent has a habit of repeatedly responding in the same way to a particular action of the kid, the parent is often causing operant conditioning, causing the act to become more likely or less likely in the future.

 

[tadamsmar]

I think one thing to do is to just notice the intrinsic motivators that are already there. What does you kid like to do? In particular, what does your kid like to do that you are OK with or even think of as a good thing?

This is a graphic from a study of the effects of rewarding high interest tasks (intrinsicly rewarding) vs low interest tasks (like taking out the garbage)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Overjustification_Effect_Rewards_and_Motivation.jpg[/URL]

All types of rewards work for low interest tasks. But only two types of rewards work for high interest tasks:

1. Verbal rewards

2. Tangible rewards for exceeding others

In all other cases, tangible rewards had no effect or undermined performance on high interest tasks.

More here, including citation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect

My daughter tell us we should have encouraged her in art instead of bribing her (with a dog) to take piano lessons. I think there were plenty of signs that she was intrinsicly motivated to do art, but I was not tuned into looking for them.

 

[parentastic]

Just to clarify a bit. <I>Classical </I>conditioning was about reflexes/automatic responses, as in Pavlov's dog learning to salivate the sound of a bell. The other type is o<I>perant</I> conditioning. It is about actions and the effects of actions. It's about controlling the effect of an action. Like a rat pushing a lever and getting (or not getting) a food pellet.

Operant conditioning is also reflex, in the sense that it's operating on the lower part of the brain (amigdala, limbic system, etc) and not on the higher part of the brain (cortex and higher cortex, cognition).

 

[parentastic]

I think one thing to do is to just notice the intrinsic motivators that are already there. What does you kid like to do? In particular, what does your kid like to do that you are OK with or even think of as a good thing?

The problem here, tadamsmar, is that if you reward a task that is already a high interest / intrinsically motivated task, you are likely to reduce the intrinsic motivation. The task that would have been done of the child own accord in the first place anyway now not only is done <I>for the reward</I>, but now when the reward is not present, the interest in the previously appealing task becomes reduced.

All types of rewards work for low interest tasks. But only two types of rewards work for high interest tasks:
1. Verbal rewards
2. Tangible rewards for exceeding others

As said above, although they work, they also come with their drawback, and it's a heavy long-term drawback.

In all other cases, tangible rewards had no effect or undermined performance on high interest tasks.

None of the studies performed by behaviorist ever look at the effect of the reward on the task <I>when there is no longer a reward offered</I>. None are interested, it seems, on the long term effect of rewards on intrinsic motivation, absent of the extrinsic stimuli.

Worst: offering a tangible rewards for exceeding others has another terrible drawback: it promotes competition and causes children to start measuring themselves by looking at others, rather than comparing themselves to their own abilities or cultivating the desire to outperform themselves. Not only does it ill-prepare them for a world where collaboration is a LOT more important than competition, but it also gets them to develop several not-so-good values (egocentrism, materalism, etc). It also pushes them to isolate themselves instead of developing mutual help (and learning research shows that the best learning is in collaboration, not alone).

My daughter tell us we should have encouraged her in art instead of bribing her (with a dog) to take piano lessons. I think there were plenty of signs that she was intrinsicly motivated to do art, but I was not tuned into looking for them.

This being said, a word about encouraging: yes, yes yes. Encouraging a child in her high motivation is wonderful. And it does not need to be an encouraging with a judgment (again, this would prevent them from developing their own self-judgment, and it would tend to push them to seek other's approval and decrease their own self-interest on the long run). Instead, the adult encouragement is best when it's a <I>facilitation</I>. You like art? Okay. Let me make sure you get access to the proper material and let me listen to you with a genuine interest when you tell me about your passion. THAT, now, is really powerful.