School Security....
- Thread starter bssage
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There was just recently a mass stabbing in China. In a close quarters situation confronting the shooter can be the only possible solution. If the teacher has solid enough wrestling and jits mixed with enough luck to not get shot disarming a shooter isn't very difficult.
When I say self defense I am refering to ground game tactics. Standing around punching a shooter is impossible. While using ground game can easily apprahend a shooter. That is why they are now teaching cops bjj.
When I say self defense I am refering to ground game tactics. Standing around punching a shooter is impossible. While using ground game can easily apprahend a shooter. That is why they are now teaching cops bjj.
I think staging a security guard at each school would be more practical than training a whole campus of ninja-teachers.
Yup.akmom said:
If the perp is standing face to face with a teacher, that means he's inside a classroom. Kids are already in danger. Teachers should be concerned with keeping kids out of harms way, and leave the heroics for the police/trained and armed security. That's what I would want, should my daughter get caught up in such a situation.
So you think there is no way that would be practical or possibly important. Then you honestly need to further familiarize yourself with ground martial arts. I'm not talking about karate chops I'm talking basic self defense. Many BJJ instructors are now doing free classes for teachers. Some cops that go to my gym said they believe it would be very helpful as well.
I do not have a serious understanding of self defense. I'm not getting the sarcasm here...
I do not have a serious understanding of self defense. I'm not getting the sarcasm here...
I am all for it if the teacher has the aptitude and desire to be trained. But I prefer their strengths lie in their ability to teach. I would not like to see a day when a lesser qualified teacher gets the job because their skill at self defense is greater than someone who is simply a better teacher.
I think it would be unrealistic to think a normal everyday teacher could be trained enough to take down a man with several loaded weapons.. or even just one... with bullets a flying. I work with officers and they themselves who are trained on a daily basis.. and have to keep in shape to do it.. who be hard pressed to ninja there way across a room to chop a gun out of a hand. I get what your saying though. Doing anything would be better than nothing.
My personal opinion on it would be in a lock down that worked. Every door would be steel enforced and have a bar that can be quickly slammed across it. Every window would be able to shutter. At the first sign of a problem.. they lock it down. It would not stop every casualty, but it would prevent them from shooting their way into other classrooms. Having SRO officers in each school and security cameras to set off alarms so teacher would know to lock it up... its the only way I can see to save lives. Short of all of us homeschooling.
And.. perhaps addressing the issue of children with problems before they grow into the monster that wants to kill anyway. Lesson's on bullying.. harder punishments for it.. watching for the signs of abuse.. early intervention... all of that is essential.
My personal opinion on it would be in a lock down that worked. Every door would be steel enforced and have a bar that can be quickly slammed across it. Every window would be able to shutter. At the first sign of a problem.. they lock it down. It would not stop every casualty, but it would prevent them from shooting their way into other classrooms. Having SRO officers in each school and security cameras to set off alarms so teacher would know to lock it up... its the only way I can see to save lives. Short of all of us homeschooling.
And.. perhaps addressing the issue of children with problems before they grow into the monster that wants to kill anyway. Lesson's on bullying.. harder punishments for it.. watching for the signs of abuse.. early intervention... all of that is essential.
I dont completely disagree. I think I have heard something in the past about the 10 foot rule. I will look it up (got to get the kids to school) But it think it is a rule that one can be more effective without a gun at 10 foot than one with a gun.
I'm not saying that there isn't a teacher out there who could unhand a man with a gun. But in my experience with people who call the 911 center... someone with a gun is in complete control. We tell them to get to safety and wait for us. There needs to be a safe place that a locked door that can be shot away.
In my head I see the teachers I personally know. My 5 foot non violent cousin who is 24, my MIL who worked until she was 73, and my SIL who is would be more likely to try and encourage the shooter to think about things and come up with a better behavior for his anger. (Her grown son cursing can bring a tear to her eye). I can't think of but one teacher through all the kids schooling that I think could possibly be expected to maybe stand up and fight. Most people who work with children are not the type to explore hand to hand disarmament with enthusiasm. I just don't know.
The saddest part of all of this... we are actually having to have this discussion to begin with.
In my head I see the teachers I personally know. My 5 foot non violent cousin who is 24, my MIL who worked until she was 73, and my SIL who is would be more likely to try and encourage the shooter to think about things and come up with a better behavior for his anger. (Her grown son cursing can bring a tear to her eye). I can't think of but one teacher through all the kids schooling that I think could possibly be expected to maybe stand up and fight. Most people who work with children are not the type to explore hand to hand disarmament with enthusiasm. I just don't know.
The saddest part of all of this... we are actually having to have this discussion to begin with.
Fair enough. And for the most part I agree. I only suggest that if a teacher were receptive then I would be in everyone's best interest to help facilitate the training.
Even if the teacher had no desire to actually ever make a offensive move or try and disarm an intruder. I believe a component to most of these defensive classes. Working through how our elevated heart rate and emotions effect our decision making process. This education could improve their response to the: in place process of calling 911: and calmly taking action to secure a location for safety. The reason for the drills currently in place is to reduce the amount of thought behind what has to be done when it has to be done.
It could assist it separating fact from fiction. The reality is that if a 90 pound female (any sex really) punches me in the head. Its not going to have much effect. If she were however: to jam a finger in my eye socket. Probably have more effect.
We all run through scenarios in our heads of what to do when things go south. But these scenarios are filled with assumption and guesses. It is better IMHO to have some real idea of how our bodies and minds will react. What things are real and what are movie myths.
Even if the teacher had no desire to actually ever make a offensive move or try and disarm an intruder. I believe a component to most of these defensive classes. Working through how our elevated heart rate and emotions effect our decision making process. This education could improve their response to the: in place process of calling 911: and calmly taking action to secure a location for safety. The reason for the drills currently in place is to reduce the amount of thought behind what has to be done when it has to be done.
It could assist it separating fact from fiction. The reality is that if a 90 pound female (any sex really) punches me in the head. Its not going to have much effect. If she were however: to jam a finger in my eye socket. Probably have more effect.
We all run through scenarios in our heads of what to do when things go south. But these scenarios are filled with assumption and guesses. It is better IMHO to have some real idea of how our bodies and minds will react. What things are real and what are movie myths.
Addessing children with problems would be more beneficial than anything.Mom2all said:
I'm not talking about karate kid. There is no ninja chopping or what have you in self defense, unless of course you have learned from an unqualified instructor. Basic sweeps and submissions are not that hard to apply. You give someone a self defense class for a semester of school they will be able to learn enough to apply it to someone with little knowledge of ground arts.
If you want proof, find a local BJJ gym and go train for a day. Find a small white belt who has 3-6 months of experience and they will dismantle you on the ground. By applying basic techniques.
I am also not proposing that teachers attack shooters or anything of that nature. I'm saying as a last defense, the teacher attempting to grapple with the shooter at the very least would give students time to escape. Obviously charging a shooter from 100 ft out is ridiculous.
This mount sound inconceivable but teach that same 90lb woman basic ground game plus groin and eye attacks and she will be able to disarm most men.bssage said:
What people are forgetting is typically those involved with school shootings aren't the most athletic/physically tough people. Disarming them would not be all that hard given the right scenerio.
One thing you should not lose site of Bump. Is that if a person does not have the desire or aptitude it does have the potential to do more harm than good: or aggravate a situation.
I am kinda agreeing with you both. IMHO encourage and make training accessible to those who want it. But don't mandate if for those who don't.
I am kinda agreeing with you both. IMHO encourage and make training accessible to those who want it. But don't mandate if for those who don't.
Again.. I agree that any plan is better than none. I had officers teach me to use simple house hold items as weapons years ago. I believe I could whip someones butt with a mop handle to this day.
I speak only from what I hear on a daily basis. And before I say this.. let me say.. I'm not speaking for all women. There are definitely the exceptions to this.
But from first hand experience.. they are not aggressive enough to fight. Not in that scenario. I say that because 90% of our 911 calls are from women. The majority of them, in scary situations, hide. Even those with weapons.. I have to talk them into coming out of their closets and meeting an officer. (Some refuse all together) Just the thought that someone may be in there house freezes them.
Most men.. they call us after they chased down the bad guy and fought with him. They act differently.
And in fact.. most women are hysterical. Its hard to even get them to listen to us. Children and old people listen better on the average.
I gave myself a false sense of security with my own daughter. From the time she was a little girl I had my brother teach her to fight. She can throw a punch and put you in a arm bar in a second. Because she's small, we taught her to hit and run. Get away. Had all sorts of drills and safe havens in effect. AND YET.. at 17, when she heard what she thought was an intruder in the house.. she lay under her covers and refused to even slip off the bed into the crack to hide. I was working 911 at the time.. practically begging her to listen and she froze. Now... the rest of the plan worked. A neighbor was there in 4 minutes.. my ex in 6 minutes and the law in 15. But SHE still froze.
Not all women will, I know. But its so rare that during my own 911 call when the house burnt down, (the children did in fact adhere to the fire drill rules and went immediately to the neighbors), but I called 911 while taking pictures off my wall. I was so calm that the fire inspector actually accused me of being too calm and perhaps trying to get insurance money. The fire wasn't suspicious. My voice on the call was... to calm. REALLY???
I say all that to say this. Unless they do it everyday and it becomes a gut reaction.. not something they have to think about at all, I don't think it would work.
I speak only from what I hear on a daily basis. And before I say this.. let me say.. I'm not speaking for all women. There are definitely the exceptions to this.
But from first hand experience.. they are not aggressive enough to fight. Not in that scenario. I say that because 90% of our 911 calls are from women. The majority of them, in scary situations, hide. Even those with weapons.. I have to talk them into coming out of their closets and meeting an officer. (Some refuse all together) Just the thought that someone may be in there house freezes them.
Most men.. they call us after they chased down the bad guy and fought with him. They act differently.
And in fact.. most women are hysterical. Its hard to even get them to listen to us. Children and old people listen better on the average.
I gave myself a false sense of security with my own daughter. From the time she was a little girl I had my brother teach her to fight. She can throw a punch and put you in a arm bar in a second. Because she's small, we taught her to hit and run. Get away. Had all sorts of drills and safe havens in effect. AND YET.. at 17, when she heard what she thought was an intruder in the house.. she lay under her covers and refused to even slip off the bed into the crack to hide. I was working 911 at the time.. practically begging her to listen and she froze. Now... the rest of the plan worked. A neighbor was there in 4 minutes.. my ex in 6 minutes and the law in 15. But SHE still froze.
Not all women will, I know. But its so rare that during my own 911 call when the house burnt down, (the children did in fact adhere to the fire drill rules and went immediately to the neighbors), but I called 911 while taking pictures off my wall. I was so calm that the fire inspector actually accused me of being too calm and perhaps trying to get insurance money. The fire wasn't suspicious. My voice on the call was... to calm. REALLY???
I say all that to say this. Unless they do it everyday and it becomes a gut reaction.. not something they have to think about at all, I don't think it would work.
I think Mom2all knows more about how people react in crises situations than the rest of us combined, being a 911 operator and all that.
I also get what she says from experience. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm probably the only person on this thread who's ever been on the wrong end of a loaded gun. Trust me - it's one thing to say you must do this or that, or even to practice it. It is something <U>completely different</U> to actually do it. I'm pretty sure that you can teach a small woman to bring down a man, in a self-defense class. But when she is facing down the barrel of a gun, these "skills" won't be the determining factor. Her ability to not freeze up, but to act instead, is. There is no way you can simulate that.
This isn't a movie.
The kind of people who can do it, are people who are very used to both handling guns and having guns pointed at them (like police, who work with them every day) or people who have had extensive training (military, security, police). Even police officers need counseling from time to time. I don't think it's fair to expect that from a teacher. And like bssage, I wouldn't want their ability to cope with that to become a criteria for their appointment. Teachers should be educators and nurturers.
I also get what she says from experience. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm probably the only person on this thread who's ever been on the wrong end of a loaded gun. Trust me - it's one thing to say you must do this or that, or even to practice it. It is something <U>completely different</U> to actually do it. I'm pretty sure that you can teach a small woman to bring down a man, in a self-defense class. But when she is facing down the barrel of a gun, these "skills" won't be the determining factor. Her ability to not freeze up, but to act instead, is. There is no way you can simulate that.
This isn't a movie.
The kind of people who can do it, are people who are very used to both handling guns and having guns pointed at them (like police, who work with them every day) or people who have had extensive training (military, security, police). Even police officers need counseling from time to time. I don't think it's fair to expect that from a teacher. And like bssage, I wouldn't want their ability to cope with that to become a criteria for their appointment. Teachers should be educators and nurturers.
Singledad, I wouldn't say you are the only person in this thread to have been on the opposite end of a loaded gun.
Of course some would not have the nerves needed to disarm someone but it could still delay the mascre long enough for the children to escape.
Do schools have panic buttons? If not they need them..
Of course some would not have the nerves needed to disarm someone but it could still delay the mascre long enough for the children to escape.
Do schools have panic buttons? If not they need them..
So, like a "you are the one who must be sacrificed" sense? Because if it is for the point of delaying the shooter, then obviously the shooter must get past the ninja-teacher?
Well, that's not really a fair expectation to put on a teacher. I like my kid's teachers to primarily be trained to teach, and to be wonderful academic minds, not all fully trained superheroes. By that logic wonderful teachers who do exceptionally well at educating children will not make it into the profession, and mediocre teachers who excel at combat will.
Sorry, but as someone who places a very high value on education, that is unacceptable to me.
Well, that's not really a fair expectation to put on a teacher. I like my kid's teachers to primarily be trained to teach, and to be wonderful academic minds, not all fully trained superheroes. By that logic wonderful teachers who do exceptionally well at educating children will not make it into the profession, and mediocre teachers who excel at combat will.
Sorry, but as someone who places a very high value on education, that is unacceptable to me.
I agree with cebele. I don't care if you're superman, it is unfair to expect the average teacher to take on an armed assailant. They should be concerned with keeping the children safe. The children don't need to "escape" - they need to be kept out of firing range until the cops arrive and deal with the gunman.
Agreed.bumpersticker said:
I am a high school teacher and we have an armed police officer in our school at all times. I feel much safer as a teacher knowing this. I am totally for it. We've had one for years now.