Should I be forced to choose??...

[Crazylife2231]

The last 2 months have been a nightmare. Since the blow-up between my 14yo daughter and my fiancee, B, my girls left to live with their dad and my oldest is demanding that if I love her, I will make B leave and they will come back.
Wow, I do not know what to do. My instinct, after many hours of reflection, is to say that she is 14 and has many many anger issues outside of this situation, but, as all chidren will do, she is focusing on him because it's the most obvious source of anger at the time. I come to a confusion state when I'm talking to her as she obviously is hurting and does have reason to be upset as B was goaded on by a 14yo and said some things he shouldn't have, however, I don't know how to acknowledge her feelings without giving her what she wants.
Last week, B and I were at our car dealership and her friend's dad dropped her off here. She called and asked if that was okay. I told her yes, but we were coming home at an undetermined time and she should find a ride to her dad's. Well, we finished early and although I sent her a message that we were on our way, she was in the kitchen when we got home. When she realized B was here, she literally screamed and ran out the back door and hid at the side of the house!
Dramatics! Help! I am losing patience with her and am having a very difficult time understanding her and her volatile nature.

 

[mr.mom]

That's a tough situation to be in. Luckily my son was only 4 when I came around, so he was cool with me until I moved in. It wasn't until we were forced together that he started to accept me. Does your fiancée ever spend one on one time with your daughter? Would she even let that happen? Relationships like this are a two way street, and she needs to understand that. Does her dad and your fiancée get along? Maybe he could start to hang out at the dads place here and there. If your daughter sees her dad accept him, then maybe she will too.

 

[Crazylife2231]

He did spend a lot of one-on-one time with her. In fact, her affection for him was a little overboard at times. Oh boy, her dad and B do not get along - her dad sees B as the reason for the divorce and is more than doing a happy dance that there was a blow-out.

 

[mr.mom]

Could her dad be the origin of these issues? If she at times was cool with B, then what changed? Maybe either B did something to upset her, or her dad did. That is one tangled web.

 

[Crazylife2231]

Yes, her and B had quite the volatile argument where words on both sides got out of control. Yes, B is the adult and should have been able to walk away but I will say the 14yo has quite the way with poisonous words and when she went after his daughter with insults, he had enough. My 9yo daughter was drawn into the whole mess because she doesn't like arguing and was melting down. Now of course their dad and his girlfriend are just making it bigger than necessary instead of encouraging a resolution.

 

[mr.mom]

If her dad won't cooperate, then you might be S.O.L. That doesn't mean that you should give up on your happiness. You might just have to distance yourself from your own daughter for awhile. Do you get along with B's daughter?

 

[Crazylife2231]

Yes, he has 2 daughters - 9 and 4 and I work well with them. We also have an 11yo foster son and all of us together have a good relationship. What I don't understand is that all the kids were there for the now infamous argument and they're not upset with B....they don't like it when he is mad, but understand that the 14yo definitely pushed the situation...

 

[mr.mom]

Then it seems the 14yo is the odd one out. Nothing is going to change her mind on the situation. All you can do is let her be, but be there for her if she comes around. She probably feels like her relationship with you changed, and it all B's fault.

 

[akmom]

All we (readers) have is a description of the argument, and not the substance behind it. When I read these posts, my mind keeps inserting hypothetical details from incidents I've encountered throughout my own life.

Once it was the other parent egging on the feud for spite. Once it was a lovesick mother who would side with her new husband at her children's expense, no matter what happened. Once it was a spiteful stepmom that didn't accept her husband's other children, didn't feel there was room for them in her new life, and actively sabotaged that parent-child relationship all the way to adulthood.

Your description could have applied to any of those scenarios, so I wouldn't rush to conclude D14 "the odd one out" and move forward as if she is in the wrong. It's easy to put the blame on one person by noting how well everyone else seems to be handling life now. But that's really subjective. I mean, some people suffer in silence. The ones that won't argue may share all the same sentiments as the expressive ones, but their personalities don't let it show. So be careful about interpreting agreeability as contentment. I think ideally it would help to have a family counselor mediate the dispute, but there are a lot of people involved, and I understand that isn't always practical. Maybe instead, you could privately discuss concerns with each family member and see if a constant theme emerges. Maybe D14 feels like your boyfriend's daughter has it better? Maybe she feels jealous or short-changed, and expresses that by criticizing her? Maybe she feels like your boyfriend is a third-wheel parent and criticizing his daughter was her way of trying to redirect his fatherly role. Maybe she just feels overwhelmed with the suddenly large family. Or maybe the ultimatum and follow-up behavior is just a knee-jerk reaction to being verbally attacked, and you should give her some space. Would she feel validated if he apologized? Perhaps even asked her, himself, what could be done to make her comfortable with him in the same household again? It's awfully hard to accept someone that just attacked you, even if you know you started it.

 

[Crazylife2231]

I can appreciate the need for more info here - I guess when you're in the middle of it, it can be difficult to assess if the given information is adequate:O)
D14 has been an intense girl since the day she was born. When she gets angry, she says and does some pretty nasty things and even when she's not angry, if she wants something, she will be "in your face" until she gets it. Teenage hormones and divorce have definitely intensified these attributes. Make no mistake, when she is in a good headspace, she is a great kid - funny, giving, very well-articulated...she was very close to B.
In the last 6 months or so, her intensity has been difficult to handle around the house. She would engage and push issues with everyone in the house and the tension has been high. I could see B's patience going downhill with her beahviour and tried SO many different methods of trying to curb it, but to no avail. The final argument was really over nothing, but was the "straw".
I have had private conversations with each child, and they are happy with the changes in B's frustration. I can't say that D14 is to blame for his level of frustration, however, it certainly didn't help.
After mulling this over and speaking with counsellors, I am thinking that while D14 is angry over the altercation, she is also focussing all her divorce anger, teenage angst and anger towards the household growth onto this situation and B. My thoughts are that I have to let her work through this and just have to be there to try and love her through it. My quandary comes when I want her to be accountable to her behaviour, not to just blame it on everyone else.
B has been able to apologize to D9 (which is strange, because she wasn't a part of it, but I guess felt the need to defend her sister) and is making progress with her, but D14 is VERY stubborn to her point of view.
The last thing I want to do is force any relationship on them, so I am trying to just encourage and allow them to move at their own pace.

 

[akmom]

I don't know, but from what you wrote it sounds like she's really looking to you to do something. Writing her off as someone who's been selfish since birth, then letting them work it out in time, won't bring her any validation at all. You didn't say whether you approached your boyfriend about an apology, but it's pretty clear that he hasn't apologized. An apology is a one-way communication; it doesn't matter how stubborn she is, he can still say it. Are you afraid to bring it up with him? It sounds like you're hoping for a solution that doesn't involve holding him accountable. That probably won't help her get over it, and I doubt it will earn you her respect.

I can't help but notice you using a lot of terms like "frustration" and "losing patience" in reference to B. Is he becoming an angry person? I'm not quite sure what it means when the other chidren are "happy with the changes in B's frustration" - it's kind of awkward wording - but it sounds kind of like you're trying to say the other kids are putting up with his frustration just fine.

I could see B's patience going downhill with her beahviour and tried SO many different methods of trying to curb it, but to no avail.

It reads like you have been reigning in her behavior to please B, and not because she has hurt anyone or made bad decisions. Are you afraid to confront him? To lose him? The fact that you'd rather let her work it out on her own than demand an apology from B (for what you have acknowledged was unacceptable) makes me think you might harbor that concern.

Teenagers can be stubborn, selfish, dramatic and hormonal, but what transpired between your daughter and your boyfriend was real. It bothered you. It bothered you enough to post here about it for advice. I think your daughter needs to know it bothered you too, or she is always going to feel like you push her aside to satisfy B. If he messed up, he needs to apologize. It think your daughter will respect your discipline more if she knows you will indeed stand up for her when it's warranted.

 

[Crazylife2231]

Yes, he certainly has taken ownership for his part. He has sent an apology message to her, but has not had the opportunity to apologize in person, and not by his choice. He is willing to do whatever it takes to make it up for his actions.
I guess I am posting in this forum for advice on how to respond to her "It's me or him" ultimatum. I have repeatedly told her that yes, he was for sure in the wrong for saying the things he did. She just thinks the appropriate response to this infraction is for him to leave.

 

[singledad]

I've been watching this thread for a while, but haven't had the time to respond...

You say in your other thread that there was a time when your daughter and your fiance had a great relationship. What changed? Do you know when your daughter started feeling negative about him again, and why?

As with most threads on here about teenage trouble, I read a lot about what you have done and said and tried, but no mention of her motivation, or what she has had to say about her own behaviour. Have you tried <U>listening </U>to her, and <U>validating </U>her feelings, instead of focusing on her behaviour?

I get the feeling that your daughter desperately wants to know that she is more important to you than your fiance. And your response to that is to let her more out, and leave you and your fiance behind together. ie. You are proving to her that your fiance matters more to you than she does. Don't get me wrong - I know this isn't your intention, but can you see that your actions can be interpreted this way?

My best advice would be to make an effort from your side to reach out to her, without your fiance by your side for a while. While she is living with her dad, make and effort to spend time with her. Let her talk without interruption. Validate her feelings, even if you feel she is being silly and immature. After all, at 14, she has every right to be silly and immature - that doesn't make her feelings any less real. Show her that you care and that you miss having her around. You don't have to accept insults, but if she becomes mean, simple tell her that you can't have a conversation like that, and that you can continue when she has calmed down. Then - BE AVAILABLE when she has calmed down! When you have made some progress on repairing your relationship with her, you can think about the next step, and possibly re-introducing your fiance into her life.

Whatever you do, don't withdraw from her!

I know its not that simple, but this is what I would try to do...

 

[Crazylife2231]

Thanks for that reminder, singledad...sometimes it is very challenging to remember to validate her feelings when they come out in nasty words. I have spent quite a bit of time with her...in fact, B is going camping this weekend and the girls are staying over.
My difficulty with validating her feelings is they do always turn to insults. I just hope I'm doing enough by listening and being there.
She does not have much to say about her behaviour...she feels completely justified in saying all the things she does. For now, what I've insisted on is that we leave topic alone for now and just spend time together. I am hoping to have some counselling mediation soon as I do recognize that the highly emotional communication between us is not all her fault.
As far as her motivation behind the disrepair in her relationship with B, I'm not sure. Her general anger and lashing out has been to everyone, so I do suspect it is just the frustration surrounding the new "combo household" combined with being 14. (I really shouldn't say "just" as I know it's a major life transition).

 

[Crazylife2231]

One question I had missed...about the issue of her moving out. I did not choose that - she did. I have voiced over and over again that she is welcome back anytime, once we have had some counselling direction. Yes, she does feel I chose B over her. My response to her has been that choosing him over her would be if he had said that she could not come back and it was either "her or me". He does not have that opinion at all and in fact, wants them back very much. In consideration of all the other kids in the house, we just need to learn how to deal with her more effectively, because what we were doing was not working for anyone.

 

[Testing]

All we (readers) have is a description of the argument, and not the substance behind it...

Your description could have applied to any of those scenarios, so I wouldn't rush to conclude D14 "the odd one out" and move forward as if she is in the wrong. It's easy to put the blame on one person by noting how well everyone else seems to be handling life now. But that's really subjective. I mean, some people suffer in silence. The ones that won't argue may share all the same sentiments as the expressive ones, but their personalities don't let it show.


...Or maybe the ultimatum and follow-up behavior is just a knee-jerk reaction to being verbally attacked, and you should give her some space. Would she feel validated if he apologized? Perhaps even asked her, himself, what could be done to make her comfortable with him in the same household again? It's awfully hard to accept someone that just attacked you, even if you know you started it.

She feels you chose Boyfriend over her and you did, from what you say, if he moved in. So she moved out. I'd pick my kids over my boyfriend any day. She's only going to be there for a heartbeat of time and she'll be grown up.

Don't live with someone to whom you are not married (and marriage comes when a whole family is in agreement, where there are children). That's my archaic, fuddy-duddy advice, and I know how it will go over here but it's the truth, for innumerable reasons.

If you aren't living together, then she has her Mom now and believe me, 14 year old girls are more time intensive than toddlers and ten times as volatile! From her perspective, why should she have to share her Mom with some interloper who is not her Dad? At her age, that's how it looks to her, even if you believe differently. If she were 5, you could convince her that this is a great idea but not at 14. Date him while maintaining separate households and work toward peace and resolution and love on all sides. Daughter first. Sounds like this B has an anger problem and you are walking on eggshells trying to keep him happy.

Singledad has good advice, by the way, as does akmom, from what I saw so far.

 

[Crazylife2231]

Well, there have been some points on this thread that have been good. However, I think that the reason anyone signs on to a forum like this is for advice but also support. It would be great if life were as simple as "maintaining separate households and work toward peace and resolution"....not everything can be ideal and although that might be the best path, there are others involved here. No, I do not walk on eggshells trying to keep my fiancee happy. He is not happy with this situation. He is a kind, giving, gracious man that has had a great deal of hurt in his life and is trying to work through it. As much as I realize that it may be difficult to communicate the human side to all this through writing, everyone in this wants the best for everyone, including the other children in the household. There are no selfish moms or prideful boyfriends, just people trying to deal with a lot of difficulties and trying to mull through it. I guess what I wanted on this forum is someone else's experience, some objective perspectives and possibly some support. I certainly received the advice and supposedly objective perspectives, but I will say if anyone is going to post advice replies, please remember this - we are all frustrated, hurting and confused and seeking some listening ears, we are not here to be condemned or to be told some idealistic way of doing things that are not possible. Don't judge....unless all information and the people are known, don't judge. All I have to say about that.