Sleep issues with a 7 year old....

[GavinH]

My daughter was 2 when my wife and I divorced. For the next 5 years my daughter slept in the same bed as my ex. Earlier this year the ex "left town" and I now have full custody of my 7 year old and 17 year old daughters. I am still single and the 3 of us have a loving and caring relationship with very few issues except for one ......

My youngest daughter has her own room and I am at my wits end getting her to sleep through the night in her own bed. At least 3 or 4 times a night, EVERY night, she calls out for me. I go to her room, tuck her back in and sit on the bed till she falls asleep again. If I leave the room before she is asleep she gets very distressed and then getting her to sleep again is an even larger problem. Most mornings she says that she doesn't remember calling out and it seems that rewards and threats and bribes are not working to change this behavior.

My daughter will also not go upstairs to her room to get a toy unless someone goes with her although she seems quite happy to go to the mailbox to get the mail or do other things where I am not around.

I am sure that the interrupted sleep is going to be an issue for her as she goes into 2nd grade this month and I know that i am exhausted.

Any help or suggestions will be welcome and appreciated.

 

[Squishy]

Hi Gavin,

You already know this, but your daughter has a habit here of sleeping with a parent, and even though the original parent isn't available, the behavior remains, transferred onto you. The key here is to replace the bad habit with a good one, and the best way to do that is to work naturally with the developmental striving for independence. So, get some good ear plugs.

Two things need to be done here simultaneously: First, you need to gently explain to her what's going on (that she's used to sleeping with mommy), but now, she's with you AND she's just such a big girl!, so she needs to learn to sleep alone. Work the 'Big girl' part, give this the independence spin, as that's part of what developmentally is going on for her (aside from the progressive nature of sleeping with a parent). Work on a reward that she will appreciate for making it thru the nite.

Then, you need to NOT respond to the call outs, etc., as they reinforce the underlying anxiety. Discuss with her as you put her to bed what the plan is ('You're such a big girl! Sleeping alone, it will be such a big girl thing, wow"), and then leave her. It will be difficult enduring the shout outs, but unless she's in real distress (doubtful) ignore it. Attending to them just reinforces the whole cycle.

Habits are learned behaviors, and as such, they can be unlearned. It's easiest to swap habits when you're working with instinct and development, which is reinforcing the striving for 'Big girl' status and independence, so lay that on thick...as well as some agreed upon reward for attaining the goal. And do your part by not attending to regressive behavior.

Give it some time, and be patient. 5years=strong habit.

 

[parentastic]

At least 3 or 4 times a night, EVERY night, she calls out for me. Most mornings she says that she doesn't remember calling out

GavinH, your daughter suffers from sleep anxiety, and this is generally a sign of a missing sense of security with jher relationship.
It's not surprising: she "learned" (emotionnally) that a child CAN lose a parent: she first lost YOU for 5 years (more than 3 forth of her entier life) and then she lost her mom (as she left town). She needs to feel rassured that you are not going anywhere, that you will forever be there for her, to take care of her.

This is her most probable internal reasoning:
"Dad said he loves me. But for 5 years I have no longer lived with him. Mom also said she loves me. But now she left town, as if she doesn't even care for me anymore. So when someone says they love me, it doesn't mean it's really a sure thing. Maybe I did something wrong. I must not be lovable. Dad is probably going to leave me next anyway. Is he really in his room now? Will he leave while I sleep?"

This is not a conscious reasoning, it's instinctive, at the level of emotions, consequently to the feelings of insecurities she went through with the divorce and separation.

it seems that rewards and threats and bribes are not working to change this behavior.

It won't, because threats, punishment, bribes and rewards only addresses the behavior (the symptom) and not the deeper issue underlying the behavior (the need to feel secure and reassured).

My daughter will also not go upstairs to her room to get a toy unless someone goes with her although she seems quite happy to go to the mailbox to get the mail or do other things where I am not around.

If you are not around, and her left brain knows why (the "logical" part of the brain) then it's okay: "dad is at work, I know where he is and he is not abandonning me because it's notmal he is not here with me."
If you are around, then she instinctively feel this desperate need to refill her attachment jar, so to speak; to reassure herself and feel secure again, so she becomes clingy. Her emotions (right brain) tells her that your presence is not reliable, so she should get the max out of it now, while it lasts.

To solve this:
<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Spend some special amount of time with her, only the two of you, some special quality time with activities that involves deep relationship (not just looking at the tv together).</LI>
  <LI>
• Tell her how important it is for you that she is in your life. Tell her often, all the time.</LI>
  <LI>
• Plan the next moment of quality time with her, then stick to it no matter what. Treat it as paramount, don't let ANY other "emergency" get in the way of beign with her when you promised you'd be. You need to demonstrate reliabaility and nurture back her self-esteem.</LI>
  <LI>
• Make a calendar with her (fun activities with cardboard and color) and put on the calendar the dates of your special quality "dates" together. Put it on the fridge so she can see in a visual way how often you do things together.</LI>
  <LI>
• Include her in your daily activities. Ask for her help to do the chores together, even when you know she will hinder the job more than help. Bring her to your job to visit it and see for herself where you are when you aren't home.</LI>
  <LI>
• Tell her she can ALWAYS wake you up in the middle of the night for a hug. Knowing she can and it won't bother you may go a long way to help her not to do it - because knowing you can is often enough.</LI>
  <LI>
• Each time she does, don't show you are annoyed at her presence or at her waking you up. Instead, smile a lot and show how happy you are that she is around.</LI>
  <LI>
• Finally, you can also have a few more direct talk about the past issues: how did she felt when you left? How did she felt when mom left and she came back with daddy? Was it scary? Did you feel abandonned? Let her express herselfm, give her words of emotions and description to help her get it out of her system. When it's done, THEN it's the BEST moment to reassure and tell her you will never ever leave her. Explain how the legal procedure works and how now it's done and it's a sure thing and it won't happen again with dad like it happened with mom.</LI>

</LIST>
These things take time. If you do all this, it will solve the problem on the long run for sure. But you need to give it some serious work over a chunk of time.

Best luck with it,
Nicolas, Family Life Educator

 

[parentastic]

Then, you need to NOT respond to the call outs, etc., as they reinforce the underlying anxiety.

I am sorry Squishy, I really don,t mean to counter your advices, but in this particular case I really don't think this is wise. It might eventually lead to the behavior stopping, but it worsen the underlying problem.
The OP needs to show the child that he is reliable.

However I do agree with you that it's important not to let the habit of sleeping with daddy stick. The key here is to <I>always</I> respond gently, <I>a;ways</I> be there, but to do it with quick soothing words and quick-kiss-on-the-forhead <I>each and every time she calls out</I> - while not letting her continue to sleep with dad all the time.

I hope you don't mind my intervention!

 

[GavinH]

Hi there Nicolas

A lot of what you say makes sense and I really appreciate the effort you put in to post.

Kayla and I do spend a tremendous amount of time together building and cementing the relationship and I always reassure her that I will be there for her. I must admit however that at 2 and 3 and 4 in the morning my patience is not always at its best and although I lover her with all my heart, loving the behavior isn't easy. I guess at this point I need to dig deep and do as you suggest.

Thanks again for the advice -- this is really a great forum with super contributors.

Gavin

 

[parentastic]

Hiya again, OP! More thoughts to investigate:


<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Could it be that there is something "scary" with being all alone upstairs for her? It could be a bad "vibe", a weird decoration, a strange sound, something that is unsettling and that she doesn't like? I am asking because when I reread your post, I noticed how she would leave from your presence without problem on the same floor but not to go back upstairs in her room to get a toy. Might be worth checking with her, if you haven't already. More precisely, how comfortable is she in her own room?</LI>
  <LI>
• Is there something special going on these days, that is different from before? A new school? A new situation? These will add to the anxiety and make the child more clingy. I am assuming it's mostly related to the divorce / separation situation, but there might be other factors. How is she doing in school? Does she have many friends?</LI>

</LIST>
On the solution side, here are a few more possible insights:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Somebody else in this forums (if my memory serves) also had a sleeping problem with a young child, and solved it by having a camp bed ready next to the parent's bed. The deal is, if the child feels insecure during the night, she can silently move from her bed into the camp bed, as long as she doesn't wake you up. That way, you can have a full night sleep and she still get to try not to sleep in your room. So long as she starts the night in her own room, when her sleep anxiety issues will get better, she will naturally not wake up anymore at 3 AM and hence, she won't need the camp bed.</LI>
  <LI>
• I have heard a great story of another dad who solved a similar problem by moving his daughter's bed in a different corner of her own room, and moved his own bed in a different corner of his room, so that the two bed are only separated by a common wall. They did this move together and the child found great reassurance just knowing that dad is juuuust outside on the other side of the wall. If she get scared, her dad told her, all you need is to gently knock on the wall and I'll knock back. She never had to use this more than a few times: it was enough to feel reassured.</LI>

</LIST>
I am curious - have you ever had some serious conversation about what happened with her mom?

 

[Squishy]

I am sorry Squishy, I really don,t mean to counter your advices, but in this particular case I really don't think this is wise. It might eventually lead to the behavior stopping, but it worsen the underlying problem.
The OP needs to show the child that he is reliable.

However I do agree with you that it's important not to let the habit of sleeping with daddy stick. The key here is to <I>always</I> respond gently, <I>a;ways</I> be there, but to do it with quick soothing words and quick-kiss-on-the-forhead <I>each and every time she calls out</I> - while not letting her continue to sleep with dad all the time.

I hope you don't mind my intervention!

Of course I don't mind your intervention, but I still stand by my advice: Responding to the call outs only reinforces the behavior. The task is to make that as gentle a transition as possible. However, the only real solution here is for the child to experience successful nites in her own bed, and for that to happen, both need to see the risk as legitimately very low, the 'underlying issue' is over dependence on something unnecessary. Regrettably, it's doubtful she'll give this up without some resistance.

So, although quick kisses on the forehead and soothing words are always appropriate and appreciated, that should be combined with the confidence to allow the child to have a different experience of their own capabilities to get thru the nite, unassisted.....as well as encouragement of the parent to allow same.

 

[parentastic]

Of course I don't mind your intervention, but I still stand by my advice: Responding to the call outs only reinforces the behavior.

It is absolutely true that responding to the call outs does, indeed, reinforce the behavior on the short term. The child learns instinctively that calling out for her father during the night when she wakes up "works" and the father, on the same time, is negatively reinforced to respond to the call outs more often as well.
This is classical behavioral knowledge.

However, it does not take the deeper need of the child into account.
A successful strategy using the typical behavior approach, in which the child is ignored in order to suppress the behavior, completely ignores that the child is currently living insecurities and that these insecurities have not been addressed. Worst, they are deepened because the child feel she cannot count on her dad.

The emotional "reasoning", so to speak, becomes: "When I wake up in the middle of the night, not feeling well and feeling alone and scared, calling up to dad is useless because he will not respond to me. Therefore I have to lull myself back to sleep on my own." Unfortunately, that also goes with: "My father doesn't really like me that much: when I am all alone and scared and I am calling out to him, he ignores me. I must have done something wrong; being scared in the night must be wrong. Big girls aren't afraid of dark". etc etc.
This leads the child to:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Increase his level of anxiety instead of decreasing it</LI>
  <LI>
• Erode the self-esteem</LI>
  <LI>
• Repress her own feelings into not expressing them anymore, both hiding them from her parents and eventually from herself</LI>
  <LI>
• And ultimately on the long run, degrades the attachment link between child and parent from "secure" to "insecure"</LI>

</LIST>
Behaviorism is not wrong; but it ignores more important factors, because initially when it was discovered it was designed to control and shape the behavior of rats and pigeons - not children.

The child has experienced going to sleep alone, and falling asleep, yet she wakes up in the middle of the night. The <I>behavior</I> might be that she <I>then</I> calls out her father and this wakes him up. But whether she wakes her dad or not, the real issue here is: <I>why is she waking up in the middle of the night in the first place?</I> Behaviorism cannot answer this and does not care to answer it, since it only focuses on the behavior.
The child has <I>already</I> taken the risk when she consciously decides to try and go to sleep alone: this is great! Cognitively, she is working on it. But emotionally, something is going on and it wakes her up.

Regrettably, it's doubtful she'll give this up without some resistance.

She will give it up, I believe, very easily when her deeper, fundamental need for reassurance is met.
Attachment is like a jar with a hole at the bottom: the child feels secure when it is full and insecure when it's getting close to empty. If the jar has been emptied suddenly because of traumatic events, such as a divorce, it needs to be significantly refilled before the child has again a sense of full security. Until it is, each small event is enough to trigger her clingy behavior.

So, although quick kisses on the forehead and soothing words are always appropriate and appreciated, that should be combined with the confidence to allow the child to have a different experience of their own capabilities to get thru the nite, unassisted.....as well as encouragement of the parent to allow same.

Yes, actually I think this is very accurately said.
I guess the main core point of divergence here is that this has to come from her own accord, while fully knowing that if it doesn't work, it's okay because it's okay to call out for help.

Here is a comparison:
If I force you into the desert on your own, your will do whatever you can to come back. If I lock you inside, you will probably work really hard to try to go outside.
This is how the children works too. Give them enough attention, care and security - and suddenly all they want is to be on their own, do their own things and be autonomous and independent. But until they feel that way, they'll stay around and will be clingy and the more you try to push them or force them away, the more they interpret it as if the care is unreliable and therefore becomes a rare commodity to seek and keep.

Not an easy concept, because there is true paradox about how the new attachment theory we recently confirmed through neurobiology really opposes the older behavior theories. :arghh: Very confusing!
The classical behavioral model also fails to recognize one simple truth: getting an answer to her call-outs might reinforce her behavior to call her dad when she is in need of him. But when she is no longer in need to call, then she will stop. No more root cause = no more unwanted behavior. Much more effective, no?

 

[GavinH]

Hi Nicolas

I talked with her last night about her room and being scared. She was pretty emphatic that she likes he room and there is nothing in the room that scares her. After quite some time talking back and forth she hinted that she was scared that I wouldn't be there at some point.

To answer your other comment ... there certainly is a lot of recent change. Most of it as a result of mom disappearing so there is new school, new friends, living full time with me. A significantly more structured routine, chores and more.

Your statements also support another aspect that I observed and neglected to mention. A few weeks ago I had to go out of town for business and my older daughter took care of the younger one. Both nights that I was away she slept the whole night in her bed and didn't call for me or her sister. I think, as you say, she understood that I was away and was comfortable with that notion.

I should also clarify that every night I read to may daughter and lay with her as she falls asleep. Similar to the calling out events, if I leave before she is asleep she becomes very distressed. We are getting into a really good routine and normally she is asleep within 10 minutes of when we finish reading.

I have not tried the "come to my room if you need to" approach as i am afraid that it will perpetuate old habits.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.
Gavin

 

[sweettartsarah]

I am a mental health professional, have always struggled with anxiety myself, and am also the parent of 2 kids with anxiety issues. Because of this I have to strongly disagree with the advice to let your daughter cry out for you and not go to her. For whatever reason she is having anxiety, it will not go away or decrease by being ignored.

One thing to do is explore the reason for her anxiety. If she has other symptoms of an anxiety disorder, you might look into counseling. Even if the anxiety is situational from all the transitions, a professional could offer guidance and a new prospective.

My daughter is going to be 12 next month and is still afraid to go upstairs alone after dark. In most ways she is a happy, well-adjusted child, but she does still have anxiety. I have learned many tricks over the years. When she was younger, we had "monster spray" that we made together and sprayed around her room. A few years later we chose a special stuffed animal and it became her "magic cat" that she could hold when she was frightened. Kids believe in magic and doing these kinds of things can give them a sense of control. Since her issue is about you being there, maybe brain storm with her a way she can know you are there when she wakes up at night. Maybe make a special signal that she can look at during the night and promise that as long as that is there, you are in the other room. It could be a picture, a stuffed animal, or whatever will work for her. Each kid is different and what will make your daughter feel reassured will be unique to her. Hope this helps. I always love hearing ideas from other parents

 

[Squishy]

It hasn't been yet determined that her calling out is due to 'anxiety', and she doesn't have the characteristic symptoms of a child undergoing an anxiety reaction. Unless and until some symptoms of real emotional disturbance are mentioned, then it's always best to start off with the assumption that this is a learned response..a habit...kids are pleasure seekers and it naturally feels better for them to seek the comfort of a parent, even in the absence of real need. So, her insistence is based more on a recognition of what she's used to, as well as an awareness that the situation has changed, and her attempts to continue to elicit a similar response form the parent..frankly the only anxiety I see is the father's. Also, lets not forget that her mother was probably reinforcing this, perhaps for her own needs, too. So, the easiest and most direct way of both looking at this and addressing it is by not over pathologizing it..or projecting one's own history onto this, but seeing it from the child's perspective: She wants what she always has, without regard to it;s appropriateness.

The solution here seems to be a relearning experience which combines lots of love and kisses with an acknowledgement of her capabilities, a plan to reward good behavior, as well as an ability to tolerate the regressive attempts at maintaining the same parental response.

It's not harsh to allow a child to experience success, even if it means having them complain about it. The complaints aren't necessarily coming from anxiety, but rather poor prior parenting and their having learned some bad habits as a result. The vociferousness of their complaints are probably in direct proportion to that, rather than true distress (which would require a different parental response).

 

[parentastic]

I completely agree with sweettartsarah's last post.
Squishy, no offense, but did you read my answer on post #8 ?

It hasn't been yet determined that her calling out is due to 'anxiety', and she doesn't have the characteristic symptoms of a child undergoing an anxiety reaction.

She does have the characteristic symptoms of sleep anxiety, Squishy.
It's different from anxiety disorder, as its not pathological, but it's very real. It has also been confirmed by the OP:

After quite some time talking back and forth she hinted that she was scared that I wouldn't be there at some point.
if I leave before she is asleep she becomes very distressed.

More signs of anxiety that are obviously not related to a "habit":

My daughter will also not go upstairs to her room to get a toy unless someone goes with her

Also, there has also been some major changes in the child's life, and that is naturally a cause for anxiety and a loss of security:

there certainly is a lot of recent change. Most of it as a result of mom disappearing so there is new school, new friends, living full time with me. A significantly more structured routine, chores and more.

Squishy, you say that 5 years = strong habits.
If the OP's daughter had been sleeping with him for 5 years and now suddenly the OP wanted to change this, then yes, I would entirely agree with you. We would then aim at a strategy to change the habit, and that takes time and a re-learning process.
But in this case, the OP's daughter has been sleeping for 5 years <U>with her mom</U>. She is now suddenly removed from that environment and set into a new environment with her dad. This is profoundly unsettling for her even in the best of cases, and it's not the only anxiety-generating situation she has to go through. It's not the right time now to re-train her: she needs to feel secure again first.

Unless and until some symptoms of real emotional disturbance are mentioned, then it's always best to start off with the assumption that this is a learned response..a habit...

I think, IMO, that we are not in the OP's shoes and that it's difficult to do a true diagnosis on a forum. Hence, I'd rather assume we treat the underlying deeper issue (which in no way can hurt her, since it can only reinforce her feeling of being secure and the "habit" is already learned anyway) than assume it's only a habit and end up increasing her anxiety or even possibly get her to repress her own feelings.

kids are pleasure seekers and it naturally feels better for them to seek the comfort of a parent, even in the absence of real need.

Squishy, perhaps you missed the main point of the OP post: his daughter <U>DOES</U> go to sleep in her own bed and <U>does</U> fall asleep within 10 minutes of her sleep routine. However, she wakes up in the middle of the night and then needs reassurance.
If it was only about pleasure, she would not wake up in the first place. Something deeper is going on, and that something is strong enough to wake her up in the middle of the night. My guess is that her feelings of anxiety and insecurity surfaces up during her sleep.

So, the easiest and most direct way of both looking at this and addressing it is (...) seeing it from the child's perspective: She wants what she always has, without regard to it's appropriateness.

From the child perspective, Squishy, what she want and always had was her mom, not just "sleeping with a parent". I don't know, It seems to me that, if you want to do some perspective taking here and look at things from the child's perspective, it should be obvious that the child has gone through some major unsettling times, and the least you can do is acknowledge that.

I am really sorry to come out strong on your advices, Squishy. I understand where you are coming from. It's really nothing personal - but I profoundly dislike the behaviorist approach, which has a tendency to spectacularly ignore the root cause needs and underlying deeper issues, and has a tendency to picture the child as a master manipulator always seeking to exploit their parents. Nothing is further from the truth. :arghh:

 

[parentastic]

Hello Gavin,

After quite some time talking back and forth she hinted that she was scared that I wouldn't be there at some point.

I think this is a real progress. When fears are expressed in the open, it really helps them get out of the system and this goes a long way to calm the anxiety and get back some feelings of being secure.
I am curious, how did you react when she expressed that fear? Did you address what happened with her mom, why her mom left her, and/or how you are not like her and won't do that?

To answer your other comment ... there certainly is a lot of recent change. Most of it as a result of mom disappearing so there is new school, new friends, living full time with me. A significantly more structured routine, chores and more.

New school means that she is going away each day at a place where she is a total stranger, with no friends. It's very scary and unsettling even for children who did not have the trauma of being abandoned by their mom. I have helped several parents with children having similar sleep anxiety problems like your daughter, and their children only had the new school to tackle; I would imagine your daughter's stress level is most probably very high. She needs that sense of security from you more than ever.

Your statements also support another aspect that I observed and neglected to mention. A few weeks ago I had to go out of town for business and my older daughter took care of the younger one. Both nights that I was away she slept the whole night in her bed and didn't call for me or her sister. I think, as you say, she understood that I was away and was comfortable with that notion.

Yes, I think the issue is not that she cannot sleep without an adult - she has proven she can. The problem is rather that she has lived through so much changes and abandonment recently that she is tightly clinging to you when you are there. "Dad may leave me anytime just like mom did. Better take the most of him while he is there now."

I should also clarify that every night I read to may daughter and lay with her as she falls asleep. Similar to the calling out events, if I leave before she is asleep she becomes very distressed. We are getting into a really good routine and normally she is asleep within 10 minutes of when we finish reading.

This makes sense also.
Her past experiences, her emotional memory stored in her left brain is telling her that when someone is leaving, they may not come back. It's not rational: it's a profound guts-experience she lived through. It's not your absence next to her that is distressing, from what I understand: it's the very act of <U>seeing you leave</U> that reminds her of her abandonment issues. Each times she sees you leave, it triggers this emotional response: "Nooo don't go away... I am scared you will not come back!".
Knowing this, you can help her by going away often in front of her... but only go a few steps away and speak through the wall "I am here baby, I am not going anywhere. " so that she can hear you.

The rule of thumb is: don't force yourself to stay (she needs to learn that it's okay for you to leave) but ALWAYS ALWAYS systematically respond to her call outs, even if only with a gentle "sshhhh I am here" from the other side of the wall (because you want to teach her that even when you are away you are not far, you are still right there, listening, caring, protecting). You need to act consistently in a way that reassure her and calm her anxiety, so that she stops associating your leaving with her abandonment. She needs to start realizing - with facts, not just speech - that you ARE reliable and present and that you will never leave her like her mom did.

I have not tried the "come to my room if you need to" approach as i am afraid that it will perpetuate old habits.

It might. But it's worth it, because:
a) it will accelerate her healing process, reinforce her self-esteem, reassure her and build back her sense of being secure,
b) it is a win-win solution since it means you won't be waked up again at 4 AM and
c) habits are much easier to handle once the deeper anxiety has been dealt with.
But other solutions not involving letting her sleep in the same room might work too - knowing the source and the root cause problem, I am certain you can find creative ways to get her to feel secure again and to make yourself reliable to respond to her fears.

If I can help further, Gavin, do not hesitate to contact me.
Nicolas, Family Life Educator

 

[Squishy]

Nicolas, we're going to disagree on the response to this one, and I think your task is maybe to recognize the limits of your own authority here.

I agree that the symptoms are the result of the major life changes this youngster has recently experienced, but they're also coupled with some pretty bad habits she's learned before those changes, and presumably, before the onset of all these life altering events. Both need to be addressed and decoupled, so the OP needs a plan that takes both factors into consideration.....I'm recognizing the child's feelings here as a major determinant of her behavior...I'm just seeing part of it as a learned response that can be targeted more directly as the OP is addressing more nebulous issues, like 'Security' and 'Consistency'. That's what the OP wants: The sleep symptoms to go away. We can address a plan to eliminate the specific sleep symptoms while simultaneously addressing the obvious emotional issues, it's not an 'Either/ Or' approach. Perhaps your own bias against addressing behaviors directly prevents you from offering an approach to address that part of the child's problem. That doesn't make me a 'Behaviorist' (perish that particular thought!), it makes me responsive to both the parent's..and most importantly..the child's needs.

So, while the OP is working to provide reassurance to his daughter on the consistency and stability of her new environment (not just around bed time or sleep issues), he also needs to incorporate a plan to maintain own bed sleep thru the night. It's really a hand and glove approach: Work on the larger issue of emotional readjustment to a new environment, while incorporating in age appropriate expectations. That means keeping her in her own bed, your suggestion that this "isn't the right time" is profoundly incorrect and misguided, not only is she more available to making changes now since the environment (and therefore expectations) are new, but also, allowing her to slip back into dad's room will only make it harder to remove her later on.

 

[parentastic]

Nicolas, we're going to disagree on the response to this one, and I think your task is maybe to recognize the limits of your own authority here.

Granted; I do not pretend to have all the answers, and perhaps we both need to acknowledge this about each other.

I agree that the symptoms are the result of the major life changes this youngster has recently experienced, but they're also coupled with some pretty bad habits she's learned before those changes, and presumably, before the onset of all these life altering events.

Perhaps for her mom, sleeping with her was not an issue.
Many parents co-sleep with their children, and what makes it a bad habit, IMO, is whether or not it interferes with the parent's sleep or with the parent's desire for intimacy / alone space.
In and of itself, there is nothing detrimental to co-sleep at 7 years old.
I do agree with you that it is important to respond to the parent's needs too; and in that sense, like I said to the OP, I am sure creative solutions can be found that both would enable the parent to get his sleep back and for the child to gain in security and trust. So in that sense, I think we might be going in the same direction.
The only part I disagree with you is the idea that her father should ignore her. I think this would be detrimental as it would add to her anxiety. On the flip side, I am not saying that keeping her in her bed is wrong. So let me amend what I said in the message above, to take your post into account:
It's not the right time to re-train her unless this can be done without impacting her already-too-low sense of security.

Both need to be addressed and decoupled, so the OP needs a plan that takes both factors into consideration.....

I am glad you are saying this. I was under the impression that you were advising the OP to ignore her when she is calling out his dad (in behaviorist term, to suppress the behavior by ignoring it) which would cause her to develop more abandonment issues. As long as her deeper emotional needs are taken into account and addressed, I am comfortable with the advice. I do not believe, however, that it is possible to completely "decouple" the two issues. For the child, how her father's responds to her call-out and her emotional insecurities are inseparable. Even if she is told <U><I>rationally</I></U> that daddy won't answer her call-outs because she has to be in bed and it has nothing to do with abandoning her, this is still how she will feel <U><I>emotionally</I></U>. Her left brain memory and right brain memory still need to get into synch regarding her recent abandonment.

I'm recognizing the child's feelings here as a major determinant of her behavior...I'm just seeing part of it as a learned response that can be targeted more directly as the OP is addressing more nebulous issues, like 'Security' and 'Consistency'.

It certainly is a learned response, we perfectly agree! Her actions are a direct consequences to her deeper feelings, and each time she acts on it (by calling out for dad) and dad is responding, it does reassure her a bit, hence reinforcing her conditioning to do it again.
However, the habit will be much easier to handle once the root cause is handled. It might sound nebulous to you - I do not know what your formation is - but I assure you it's a very real issue.

That's what the OP wants: The sleep symptoms to go away.

Yes, it is what the OP wants, in term of behavior.
But I believe what the OP - or any parents - wants besides a specific behavior change is the <I>understanding</I> of why a behavior happens. And once we establish that a specific behavior is a result of a real, deep and important emotional issue with his child, I would imagine the OP would want to make sure he solves that too - and perhaps even as a higher priority than the sleep issue itself. Gavin, how do you see this?

All I can tell you is that if this was in one of my workshops and a parent was presenting me with this very same situation, I would want to work with that parent to find a solution that solves <U>both</U> issues - and I would want to make sure that the solution has no chance to deepen the emotional issue the child has.

We can address a plan to eliminate the specific sleep symptoms while simultaneously addressing the obvious emotional issues, it's not an 'Either/ Or' approach.

Agreed! I just don't think that "ignoring the child's call-outs" is a way to do this, IMO.

Perhaps your own bias against addressing behaviors directly prevents you from offering an approach to address that part of the child's problem.

It is possible, and I certainly would not want to diminish or ignore my own bias. However, might I point out that addressing the deeper issue - as "nebulous" as it might be, actually <I><U>does</U> </I>solve the resulting behavior?
As I said already several times, the child does go to sleep on her own. When the deeper issue is solved, she won't even wake up in the middle of the night.

That doesn't make me a 'Behaviorist' (perish that particular thought!), it makes me responsive to both the parent's..and most importantly..the child's needs.

I certainly do not know what your background or beliefs, or what school of thoughts you follow - although I do recognize some of the professional jargon, which hints that you do have some knowledge that I see and respect.

On the flip side, you haven't responded to the fact that the OP's daughter does go to sleep in her own bed.
When she wakes up, you seem to be saying that her reasoning (whether it is instinctive or reflected) is: "I'd feel so much more comfortable in my father's bed", and then chose to go wake him up. (correct me if I am wrong). I ask the question: <I>why does she wake up in the first place?</I> and I suggest we address this first.
There is always a need underlying a behavior.

...he also needs to incorporate a plan to maintain own bed sleep thru the night.

Why is it so important? What if win-win solutions would allow the child to feel safe and secure at night, while daddy could still sleep without being bothered - wouldn't that be better?

your suggestion that this "isn't the right time" is profoundly incorrect and misguided, not only is she more available to making changes now since the environment (and therefore expectations) are new, but also, allowing her to slip back into dad's room will only make it harder to remove her later on.

It's a double edged sword, Squishy. Yes, I agree: in a time of change, it is a good time to set the house rules straight from the start and establish clear boundaries. But in this case, we are talking about a child who had to live through her mom abandoning her. Not just a shared custody! This is a major situation. She needs a lot more reassurance and care right now than she needs rigid rules and limits. It's not an either/or, you are right! But it's not a 50/50 either. You must account for her emotional state.

But we can agree to disagree
And I do appreciate your feedback, by the way, I feel we are getting a lot deeper in the issue here as we discuss various points together.
If solutions can be found that allows the child to re-learn to spend the night alone, while never impacting on her feeling of security and the reliability of her father to be there for her, then sure. But never, ever, ever ignore a child. Ever.

 

[shemama]

I think she has insomia. I just want to suggest to consult her doctor.

 

[Flowersgrimm]

She's afraid that you'll leave.. in her small child mind she is thinking that you coming to her bed every few hours shows that your there.

 

[GavinH]

I think that this is a great and spirited debate and appreciate the various views. By changing my approach to Kayla's calling out from a 'need to stop this' to a 'let's deal with this together' my anxiety has been reduced and i can keep this up for some time and see if we make any progress.

The following thought has crossed my mind however. Typically, once kids (or adults) fall asleep they will remain asleep until they no longer need more sleep or they are awakened by something -- say an alarm, dog or other factor. It seems however that Kayla may be getting into the deep REM sleep since she sleeps heavily until shortly after midnight and only then starts this pattern of calling. It seems that her coming so far out of the REM cycle and waking up fully enough to know that i am not there, is unusual and may be physiological rather than psychological. It has been suggested that she may be melatonin deficient and I should give her 5mg each evening. I don't like the idea of medicating and wanted to get your input on this ....

Once again - thanks to all for a great debate and wonderful guidance.

Gavin

 

[parentastic]

Hello Gavin,

I believe that there can be a lot of reasons for your daughter's wake-up during the night. There is a slight off-chance that it might be physiological, but I really doubt that because:
- This is not something that she used to experience when she was younger
- She has no problem falling asleep
- She does not wake up in the middle of the night if she is with you (if you haven't verified this, you could test it out).

I think you have to be very careful with melatonin drug usage for your daughter, because it's very powerful and it will "work", while the real issue might remains cloaked.

Sleep is a weird thing. During sleep, we process our day and our emotions. Our experiences get integrated between the left and the right hemisphere of the brain during dream state. If your daughter has a build up of un-addressed anxiety related to her mom's abandonment, it is very likely to surface in her dreams and the emotions will generate cortisole (stress hormones) and that can end up with waking her up.
At the moment she wakes up, she is in a state of distress and so, she calls out to you to compensate and find back her peace and security.

So I would definitely explore this possible root cause and address it first, before any attempt at using a drug - even if it may take a few months to get solved.

Did you recently have a discussion with her about how she felt when her mom left? If so, how did she react? Can you recall the conversation for us? If it didn't happen, how could you have that conversation with her?
She need to process her emotions, IMO, about these issues. She already did a little bit when she told you she was scared that you would not be there... I think that there is a gold nugget there to explore deeper.

Let me know if I can be of any further help,
Nicolas

 

[GavinH]

Hi Nicolas

I have made some attempts to talk to her about mom leaving but it seems that she doesn't really want to discuss is. I suspect that she doesn't have the tools or can't process it sufficiently to be able to express herself. To be honest I'm not sure that I have the tools either. Just yesterday she said out of the blue "I may need counseling to deal with this". I'm not sure where that came from but I guess this is an option. This is a logistical problem - I work full time and try find a counselor that works after 5:30pm. I will continue to talk and see if i can coach some more out of her with feeling words. Maybe there is some book for me or her that can help.

I continue to respond to each call, reassure her and it seems to be having a positive effect. More often than not, I am able to just settle her, pull up the covers and leave the room .... allowing me to get more rest and be more patient in the long run.

Her mom did reach out to me this week (to post bail) and wanted to talk to Kayla. I refused to allow that to happen and suggested that she start slowly by writing letters and we can work out how to develop an environment where Kayla will not be further traumatized by the absence and/or sporadic contact.

Any additional pointers and thoughts are always welcome --- from any and all on the forum.

Thanks again
Gavin