SPANKING revisited...

[bssage]

Lots of info out there good and bad. I know quite a few people have strong opinions on this. So LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!

I have spanked a couple of times. Not recently but it is not something I wish to remove from my tool box.

When I have spanked it has been out of concern for my son's or someone else s safety. I feel there are times it is appropriate. Time's when something needs highlighted. And I admit I think they need to understand the law of escalating consequences.

I have never done it out of anger. Never more than a couple of swats. Never with anything but an open hand to the bottom. And have always taken the time to explain why.

I received spanks several times growing up. As an adult and a parent (not received as an adult or parent). I think I had them coming. I think they were done more to help me than to harm me. And I believe the desired effect was achieved. I remember why I was spanked.

So when I talk of spanks this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ above is what I am talking about. Not a routine of daily, weekly, monthly spanks. Not a "all hell is breaking loose" spank. And not something that I ever want to do. But rather because I believe they are necessary and relevant to the situation.

 

[PianoLover]

Lots of info out there good and bad. I know quite a few people have strong opinions on this. So LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!

I have spanked a couple of times. Not recently but it is not something I wish to remove from my tool box.

When I have spanked it has been out of concern for my son's or someone else s safety. I feel there are times it is appropriate. Time's when something needs highlighted. And I admit I think they need to understand the law of escalating consequences.

I have never done it out of anger. Never more than a couple of swats. Never with anything but an open hand to the bottom. And have always taken the time to explain why.

Hi Bssage first I would like to begin by saying I respect you because I think you truly want the best for your children, I am going to take the time to write this lengthy post out of that respect in the believe that you are open minded enough to consider what I am saying in the hope that it rings true for you.

That being said, I absolutely take objection to you referring to violence, however mild, as a "tool" in your "box" as though it's just something you can apply like a spanner to get the results you want. That is a minimisation which I think is how people are generally thinking when they use physical punishment, sadly while the spanner can be used it is really a hammer in masquerade.


While I am glad that you took the time to explain why you hit, it seems evident that the lesson at the bottom of physical punishment is that the more powerful party can use violence to coerce the less powerful into doing what the more powerful party wants.

If your child goes into school and hits someone how can you possibly turn around and say that a person should not use violence to get what they want when you are still using violence to get your child to do what you want sometimes. The mind boggles at such duplicity of word and action!

I received spanks several times growing up. As an adult and a parent (not received as an adult or parent). I think I had them coming. I think they were done more to help me than to harm me. And I believe the desired effect was achieved. I remember why I was spanked.

Even though you think you had it coming I maintain that parents spank because they are not trained in other methods. The alternative to spanking is not "doing nothing" or "letting away with murder" there are many alternatives that WORK and save an act of violence.
<SIZE size="75">(We should also excercise caution in thinking that just because we THINK we had it coming we actually did, I definately used to think this way about being his sometimes, but actually even children who are severly phsically abused or even abused sexually can blame themselves. This is very common as the formative ego would prefer to think it has some control over these situations than none at all.)</SIZE>
<SIZE size="75"></SIZE>
It is very unlikely that if you were NOT spanked but your parents knew these other techniques you would turn around and say "gee, I wish I'd been spanked I would have learned a lot better!" It just doesn't happen. Most likely your communication skills would have been even better than they already are and you'd be a natural at conflict resolution.

WE have to learn these tools because or parents didn't teach us them. Yes that means a bit more work but it is SO worth it.

Just remember that just because the DESIRED effect was achieved, that doesn't mean that there aren't OTHER ways to gain those same effects that don't involve violence or teaching a double standard ("it's ok for me to hit you to get what I want for your own good, but not for you to hit to get what you want" )

Dear bssage I hope this helps.

Lots of love,

Antony (PianoLover)

 

[bssage]

While I am glad that you took the time to explain why you hit, it seems evident that the lesson at the bottom of physical punishment is that the more powerful party can use violence to coerce the less powerful into doing what the more powerful party wants.
(PianoLover)

Absolutely not. It is to highlight the law of escalating consequences and to place an exclamation point behind the behavior. Has nothing to do with who is more powerful.

In response to the rest of your post. These are results from the data of the report (Gershoff) most sited by both the video report and generally accepted as a pro non spank study.

The outcomes of physical punishment compared unfavorably with
alternative, noncorporal disciplinary tactics only when it was the primary
disciplinary method or was too severe (such as beating up a child or striking the
face or head).79 The outcomes of customary spanking were neither better nor
worse than for any alternative tactic, except for one study in which spanking
reduced drug abuse more than did nonphysical punishment.80 Conditional
spanking led to less noncompliance or antisocial behavior than ten of thirteen
alternative disciplinary tactics and produced outcomes equivalent to those of
the remaining three tactics.81 By definition, conditional spanking was used when
children responded defiantly to other disciplinary tactics such as time-out
(based on research on two- to six-year-olds).

 

[Buttaflly227]

This is a very hot topic in general and here is my suggestion if you want to stop.
1)Find a pattern by writing down the times you felt you had to spank. Were there times when similar things happened and you didn't need to spank? What did you do then?
2) Your profile says that your kids are 9 and 11, so I'd use reason rather than spanking. For example, if your child ran out into the street or didn't stay with you in a crowded area, naturally you would panic. I'd reason with your kids and just explain to them why you don't want them to do these things.
If they don't listen or care then I'd try other punishments.
3)Break the habit. Often with things like this you may resort to it out of habit so first address the fact that it is a habit, if it is for you, and develop a new one such as time outs. This is done by being <I>concious</I> of what you're doing and why. Don't let yourself react automatically.

The way that I see it is this: you <I>want</I> to stop which is the first step. Plenty of other parents raise healthy, happy, sane children without spanking and so can you.

Hope this helps!

Be well,
Be at Peace,
-Jessica

http://www.greatestkidsgames.com

 

[TabascoNatalie]

once i had found an article, about how being spanked in childhood correlates with adult attraction to BDSM. can't find it again. it was quite an interesting study.

My own opinion is strong and straightforward against. By hitting your child, you show an example, that physical violence is morally acceptable when you feel like it or want to prove your authority. Do we want to raise the next generation thinking like this? Then we wonder why there's so much bullying.

 

[mom2many]

The regulars know where I stand. The occasional swat on the butt is not the end of the world. If that were the case my older kids would be traumatized individuals and I would be a basket case who is into BDSM and the list could go on.

If spanking was this monstrous disaster of discipline that many want to make it out to be the generation before us, and all of them before them, should not have been as successful as they were. Instead what we saw in these generations was respectful, hard working well rounded individuals. There is something is lacking in today's approach to discipline. Is spanking the answer? No, I don't think it's the answer, what I think is that it can be a useful tool.

While I have no problem with spanking I do not think it should be the only form of discipline. As a rule consequences should have a logical repercussion. However, when all avenues have been exhausted a spanking may be what is needed.

Look, you can find studies that will go either way. What parents have to do is decide what is best for them. I am a non -cio, co-sleeping, vaxing, no food before 6 months kinda momma. That wouldn't work for a lot of people, but how I raise my kids works for me, as is evident by my older 4.

 

[bssage]

Ok help me identify my pattern.

I spanked Cole once in preschool when he punched another kid in the mouth in front of the kids mom, the teacher, and Coles mom. I spanked another time (we disagree about the time) at least three years ago. When he was caught with a search of Hanna Montana boobs on his netbook by the school bus.

If it helps identify my pattern. My dad spanked me once when I carried a 5 gallon can of gas toward a small bon fire. And again probably middle school age for disrespecting my mom.

Mom would occasionally swat us but not really what I would call a spank. Just more of an attention getter is suppose

I recommend this. http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1566&amp;context=lcp[/URL]

You are correct Tabasco. Its actually been linked along with that, to domestic abuse, self harm, suicide, and many other scary things. As far as I know no study has linked any of that, to the type of spanking I mentioned above "conditional spanking" to any harmful long term effects. Actually the opposite seems to be the case. If I am wrong please correct me. But site the study and provide a link or at least something to search.

The outcomes of physical punishment compared unfavorably with
alternative, noncorporal disciplinary tactics only when it was the primary
disciplinary method or was too severe (such as beating up a child or striking the
face or head).79 The outcomes of customary spanking were neither better nor
worse than for any alternative tactic, except for one study in which spanking
reduced drug abuse more than did nonphysical punishment.80 Conditional
spanking led to less noncompliance or antisocial behavior than ten of thirteen
alternative disciplinary tactics and produced outcomes equivalent to those of
the remaining three tactics.81 By definition, conditional spanking was used when
children responded defiantly to other disciplinary tactics such as time-out
(based on research on two- to six-year-olds).

The Gershoff studies (I believe) did not make the distinction between someone who occasionally spanks and someone who uses it as a primary form of punishment. I think her studies involved people who spank several time's weekly and did not differentiate when a spank was a spank or it involved a slap, punch, instrument like a stick. The study in fact withdrew people who had not been spanked in the previous two weeks from the spanked group and placed them into the not spanked groups.

I dont have a lot of research done yet. So feel free to correct me. I am currently under the impression that there is no significant body of study that an occasional spank will have any long term harmful effects.

 

[Dadu2004]

OH MY GOD!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU PEOPLE SPANK!!! YOU'RE ALL GOING TO HELL!!!!!

(Just having some fun).

Ok, I don't personally condone spanking in general, but I don't see it as a problem when a swift, meaningful punishment is in order. I think I've spanked Delaney once in her life. I pretty much ride the line with M2M on this.

 

[ElliottCarasDad]

Haha! A bunch of newbs just mulling about the forums, not much going on. Uh oh! here comes bssage, walks into the middle with a can of worms.... and opens it!

I love you man!

 

[MomoJA]

I've stated before that I don't spank. I've stated before that I was spanked, and spanked in ways that most people here would probably consider abuse. I can't imagine being better raised than I and my siblings were raised. We were held up to our neighbor children as the model children. "Why can't you be more like the *** children?" parents would ask their kids.
We are all academically and professionally successful. We are close and respect our father who was the disciplinarian.

We were all socially active and happy. I've never once heard any of my siblings blame our parents for our shortcomings, speak in cynical ways about anything, or otherwise exhibit maladjustment like I have been shocked to hear or observe in so many people I've met in my long life.

I don't spank, but I sometimes wonder if I should because I want my child to be raised like I was. I wonder if taking out that element of my upbringing might be the missing ingredient that kept me grounded, able to choose right from wrong in the face of considerable peer pressure, able to fully accept responsibility for my own actions, etc.

 

[bssage]

I like how the vets just stop by. "hello, well,,,,, gotto go"

Where is Xero at? Come on, the water is nice and war m.

I gotta ask what could have Delaney ever done.

And ECD is like one of those dudes hangn around a truck stuck under a low overpass. "Hey buddy! hows it going?"

 

[bssage]

I've stated before that I don't spank. I've stated before that I was spanked, and spanked in ways that most people here would probably consider abuse. I can't imagine being better raised than I and my siblings were raised. We were held up to our neighbor children as the model children. "Why can't you be more like the *** children?" parents would ask their kids.
We are all academically and professionally successful. We are close and respect our father who was the disciplinarian.

We were all socially active and happy. I've never once heard any of my siblings blame our parents for our shortcomings, speak in cynical ways about anything, or otherwise exhibit maladjustment like I have been shocked to hear or observe in so many people I've met in my long life.

I don't spank, but I sometimes wonder if I should because I want my child to be raised like I was. I wonder if taking out that element of my upbringing might be the missing ingredient that kept me grounded, able to choose right from wrong in the face of considerable peer pressure, able to fully accept responsibility for my own actions, etc.

nice post Momo

The non spanking advocates would have you ask could you and your siblings have been better without being spanked. I would guess the answer to that would be maybe, maybe not. Hard to second guess stuff like that.

The opposite side of the fence goes something like this. Kids are disrespectful and don't get enough discipline. I am not sure about that either. I think people have said that for decades.

I know it looks like I do. But I don't really advocate spanking. I advocate parenting and sometimes that may involve a spank. Most of the time I think other forms correcting a behavior will be better in the long term. It is obvious a lot of people have trouble safely implementing it. I am afraid if we got to a point it was encouraged that only trouble could follow. Its boundaries could be unclear to many people. And we all know very well how easily it can be abused.

 

[Dadu2004]

I gotta ask what could have Delaney ever done.

She ain't as sweet as she looks.

 

[Xero]

I don't believe you, Dadu!!

I personally am not a big fan of spanking. I am not the type to run around shouting out all the reasons why it is wrong, or the type to condemn the parents that do it. I think that it is okay for some families. By "it" I mean a harmless, occasional swat on the butt to make a point. Not a full on bare butt multiple smack spanking. I personally think that that is abuse. I don't think pants should ever be pulled down. -cringe- I also think that any more than one or two swats is too much. I also think that if it is used every day all day even in it's mildest form then it is too much. But like I said, the occasional swat on the butt for attention or to prove a necessary point (like in dangerous or extreme situations) is honestly harmless.

The reasons I don't do it. Well, first let me say that I have spanked my four year old a COUPLE of times in his life (one swat each time, on his pants). Looking back, I am not proud of it and I am embarassed to think about it. I could have easily handled the situations with some other method just as well and the only reason I let it happen was because I acted on an impulse and it was totally spontaneous. I felt instantly regretful. Anyway, my reasons. For one, I was physically abused as a child and even though it was much more extreme than the average spanking, I correlate pretty much any kind of hitting to my past and it gets me really upset really easily. I have too much anxiety over it for it to really benefit anybody in my house. I also have that irrational fear of "becoming my mother" I suppose that contributes to me not using my hands to discipline. Other than that, my more logical side tells me that there are other ways to deal with your kids that don't involve inflicting pain. Time out works GREAT for my son. He is also very easy to communicate with, if I get down on his level and show him that I'm serious. He is also now at the age where I can take away priveleges and whatnot. All of these things are very effective for my four year old. I don't need to hit him, scare him, and make myself feel guilty over it. I am also of the mindset, in a way, that regular consistant spanking is lazy parenting. It is so much easier to swat them on the butt and go about our day than it is to put them in time out or reason with them or deal with the fit that comes with the loss of priveleges. Know what I mean?

So I'm not 100% against spanking, although I am not a huge fan and I have my reasons against it, again I'm not condemning anybody and I don't think anybody is ruining their kids. Every kid is different and so is every family, and things like that have to be taken into consideration too. My main thing is that you shouldn't go overboard with it like I detailed above. That is when I start to get mad.

I am a non -cio, co-sleeping, vaxing, no food before 6 months kinda momma.

lol M2M we are so much alike! Non-CIO, co-sleeping, vaxing, somewhat no food before six months (Tyler did have a few tastes of things before 6 months but didn't eat regularly until then), baby wearing, breast feeding, attachment parenting mom right here!!! :jiggy:
Oh and I have to say. I am pretty relieved because Tyler got his first tooth like a week ago and he still hasn't bit me with it yet.

 

[Xero]

I spanked another time (we disagree about the time) at least three years ago. When he was caught with a search of Hanna Montana boobs on his netbook by the school bus.

I'm sorry but that is HILARIOUS. o.o

 

[parentastic]

These are results from the data of the report (Gershoff) most sited by both the video report and generally accepted as a pro non spank study.

bssage, have you read Gershoff's 2008 report on physical punishment?
Gershoff, E. T. (2008). <I>Report on Physical Punishment in the United States: What Research Tells Us About Its Effects on Children.</I> Columbus, OH: Center for Effective Discipline.

It is a report, produced by the Phoenix Children Hospital and endorsed by dozens of professionals and doctors and prepared for parents.
It is regrouping the meta analysis of over 100+ studies on the topic and putting together all the conclusions.
Would you take the time to read it? It's an easy read, only a few pages.

The document you cited. I think, is from Larzelere (not Gershoff, if I wrong could you post the link or the reference?). Larzelere is one of the only social scientist still advocating spanking today, against now virtually hundreds upon hundreds of studies, some very new, about the effect of spanking in the long term.
See here for Gershoff's research, at least the 2007 one.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

I also think that spanking isn't the end of the world. some people come up with really nasty forms of psychological abuse, despite never raising a hand against children. however, being a lesser evil, doesn't make it into something positive.:mask:

I spanked another time (we disagree about the time) at least three years ago. When he was caught with a search of Hanna Montana boobs on his netbook by the school bus.

i think i expressed my opinion about this before.
he was way too young to have a netbook with internet access, and he shouldn't have been allowed to carry it to school. now he got spanked, but it was actually you who should have known better.

 

[singledad]

I believe that two things that should always be taken into consideration in forming an opinion is
1. Common sense
2. Every day observation of people just going about their lives.

The average person I interact with on a daily basis, was spanked as a child. All my friends were.

The average person I interact with on a daily basis does NOT:
- have poor problem solving abilities
- have poor communication skills.
- believe that violence solves problems
- believe that more powerful people can force others to do what they want, through violence
- have low IQ
- commit crimes
- suffer from anxiety or low self-esteem
- suffer from the after-effects of trauma
- etc, etc.

So, I ask you, where arde the subjects that proved that spanking causes all these things? They definitely don't live around me...

Please note: I'm not talking about people who were beaten several times a week. Any punishment that happens that often and that severely, is a sign of a problem.

Lastly - I believe that the fixation on spanking and on physical and sexual abuse is one of the main causes why so many children who are emotionally/psychologically abused continues to slip through the cracks. Doctors and social workers are so intent on looking for physical injuries, that they never learn how to evaluate a child psychological state.

 

[Jeremy+3]

My wife and I have never hit our children and we never would, it doesn't actually teach your children anything productive, if they do something bad it teaches them "if I do that mum/dad will hit me" when the only decent way to discipline is to educate why they shouldn't do it.

Not only does it leave children without an understanding of appropriate behaviour it also teaches children that if you don't like what somebody is doing, hitting them is a reasonable response. I know I work with special needs children for the most part so they are slightly different, but you can tell which children are hit as a punishment and which ones are always informed.

The ones who are hit generally behave worse because they haven't been able to develop the thought process into not doing something, but once they have done it you can tell they are expecting a punishment. Where as those who are reasoned with will approach bad behaviour (e.g. making a mess) but they will almost always stop before they do it. We teach about good and bad behaviour at school, we will ask things like "why is it bad to cross the road on your own" some children will explain normally the ones with parents who educate them in behaviour, others will say because if you don't mum/dad will hit them.

There is also the fact that children who are hit as punishment are far more likely to hit their friends for 'bad' things, such as ignoring them, taking a toy or generally being a bit annoying. Where as a child who is reasoned with tends to speak up, obviously they are young so it is in a fairly simple manner and normally just asking them not to do it, but it is far better developmentally as it does aid their thinking process and the concept of others.

One thing we get a lot is slightly older children hitting their parents, then there parents come to us stressed because they don't know how to stop it/how it was caused, they always say it must be a negative influence at school. But when we ask them if they sometimes hit their children for bad behaviour they always say yes, I am yet to get a parent with this issue who has said "no, we don't hit them".

People always say that the previous generations were hit yet they are okay, yet they fail to realise that these people also beat and raped their wives, they were almost entirely emotionally void, and a physical presence was considered important and superior to intelligence. Children were not better behaved, they were scared of their parents, they were not thinking about the true consequence of behaviour.

You can tell into adulthood how people were punished, I can tell by watching my wife that she was hit as a child, one of the ways is because she gets very angry and stressed when the children behave because she is mimicking her own parents. I'm fairly calm and I don't shout because I'm mimicking my own parents, people don't realise just how much your parents influence follows you through life, that is why people with bad parents struggle so much in some very simple parenting aspects because they are having to override what they have been taught.

I think a lot of people end up hitting their children because they themselves fail to set boundaries and to communicate these to their children, if our children do something naughty that they haven't been previously informed about and are too young themselves to realise that it is bad we don't punish them, but we do explain why it isn't appropriate and we remind them what then happens when they repeat bad behaviour. Far too many parents completely disregard the fact that virtually all of our children's bad behaviour is our fault.

There was recently a guy in the news here (an mp I think) who said that all working class people should hit their children as a form of punishment as apparently not only are working class people of low intelligence, but if you are born to working class parents you aren't capable of behaving unless you are hit. Yet he failed to realise that the group of people with the worst behaviour in the UK those who attend public school (fee paying) who are physically punished on a regular basis and detained in locked rooms.

 

[TabascoNatalie]

There was recently a guy in the news here (an mp I think) who said that all working class people should hit their children as a form of punishment as apparently not only are working class people of low intelligence, but if you are born to working class parents you aren't capable of behaving unless you are hit. Yet he failed to realise that the group of people with the worst behaviour in the UK those who attend public school (fee paying) who are physically punished on a regular basis and detained in locked rooms.

Yeah, i heard that too. another smart-ass politician with a genius solution to social problems.