student refuses to recite pledge...

16th ave.

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very interesting.
cool kid.

Student Braves Controversy, Refuses to Recite Pledge - ParentDish


"Liberty and justice for all?"
Will Phillips doesn't believe that describes America for its gay and lesbian citizens. He's a 10-year-old at West Fork Elementary School in Arkansas, about three hours east of Oklahoma City. Given his beliefs, he refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
That did not go over well with the substitute teacher in his fifth-grade classroom.
The Arkansas Times reports that he started refusing to say the pledge Mon., Oct. 5. By Thursday, the substitute was steamed. She told Will she knew his mother and grandmother and they would want him to recite the pledge.
Will told the Times the substitute got more and more upset. She raised her voice. By this point, Will told the newspaper, he started losing his cool too, adding: "After a few minutes, I said, 'With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge.'"


That got him sent to the principal's office. The principal made him look up information about the flag and what it represents. Meanwhile, there was the inevitable call to his mother.
At first, mom Laura Phillips told the Times<I>,</I> the principal talked about Will telling a substitute to jump off a bridge. When pressed, the principal admitted the whole incident was sparked by the boy exercising his constitutional right not to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
Phillips suggested an apology was in order -- from the teacher. When the principal said that wasn't necessary, Will's mother started venting to friends via Twitter. Those friends, in turn, told the news media. And what would have been a minor classroom incident has people throughout Arkansas and beyond choosing sides.
As for Will, he continues to exercise his right to remain silent. It can be rough at times, he and his family admit. He has his share of supporters, however, his critics are louder and nastier -- especially because he took his stand to defend gay rights.
"In the lunchroom and in the hallway, they've been making comments and doing pranks, calling me gay," he told the Times. "It's always the same people, walking up and calling me a gaywad."
Nonetheless, Will told the paper, he is sticking to his convictions. A reporter for the paper asked Will -- with all this talk about patriotism and the pledge -- what he thinks it means to be an American.
"Freedom of speech," he responded. "The freedom to disagree. That's what I think pretty much being an American represents."
His mother is proud.
"He's probably more aware of the meaning of the pledge that a lot of adults," Phillips told the Times.
 

bssage

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16th ave. said:
very interesting.
cool kid.

http://www.parentdish.com/2009/11/13/student-braves-controversy-refuses-to-recite-pledge/?icid=main|main|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parentdish.com%2F2009%2F11%2F13%2Fstudent-braves-controversy-refuses-to-recite-pledge%2F
Student braves controversy, Refuses to recite pledge

"Liberty and justice for all?"
Will Phillips doesn't believe that describes America for its gay and lesbian citizens. He's a 10-year-old at West Fork Elementary School in Arkansas, about three hours east of Oklahoma City. Given his beliefs, he refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
That did not go over well with the substitute teacher in his fifth-grade classroom.
The Arkansas Times reports that he started refusing to say the pledge Mon., Oct. 5. By Thursday, the substitute was steamed. She told Will she knew his mother and grandmother and they would want him to recite the pledge.
Will told the Times the substitute got more and more upset. She raised her voice. By this point, Will told the newspaper, he started losing his cool too, adding: "After a few minutes, I said, 'With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge.'"


That got him sent to the principal's office. The principal made him look up information about the flag and what it represents. Meanwhile, there was the inevitable call to his mother.
At first, mom Laura Phillips told the Times<I>,</I> the principal talked about Will telling a substitute to jump off a bridge. When pressed, the principal admitted the whole incident was sparked by the boy exercising his constitutional right not to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
Phillips suggested an apology was in order -- from the teacher. When the principal said that wasn't necessary, Will's mother started venting to friends via Twitter. Those friends, in turn, told the news media. And what would have been a minor classroom incident has people throughout Arkansas and beyond choosing sides.
As for Will, he continues to exercise his right to remain silent.
Sounds like he was exercising how to be disrespectful to the teacher. If he had remained silent he would not have gotten in trouble. Or at the very least he would be standing on solid ground now. IMHO He should have gone to the principal, Then to his mom. His Mom should have been the one to call the school not the other way around.

Do athiest not spend the dollar because "in god we trust" is printed on it NO. If he is a fan of gay rights there are many good ways to help the cause. Does he not eat thanksgiving dinner because of the treatment of indians I doubt it. Does he enjoy Xmas break away from school? Here is what it looks like to me. He does like attention. He doesnt mind disrupting the class/the school ect for his own need for attention. And his mother IMHO should be showing him constructive ways to help a cause.

Make the teacher appologize after he admits to making a comment like that? NO. While his teacher may have had misguided intentions. He was clearly out of line. Shame on his parents for not giving him the proper guidence to channel his energies in a construtive way.
 

AmyBelle

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What an awesome kid.

It takes alot for a 10yr old to stand up for something like that. As for the comment he made to the teacher, she yelled at him for having his own opinion, what was he supposed to do? Stand there and take it? He's 10yrs old, he's going to have a smart ass streak.

If I were an American, would I recite the pledge of allegance? Fuck no, and I wouldnt encourage my children to do it either until the country actually acted the way it sets out that it does in the allegance.

Good on that kid. Not many 10yr olds would think like that.
 

Father_0f_7

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I have <U>VERY </U>strong opinion on this so I will only say this. I applaud him for standing up for what he believes in...good for him, congratulations.

BUT!

The child is a smart ass and being 10 years old doesnt excuse that. even though the teacher yelled at him he should have just kept his mouth shut. The teacher should definetly be punished...you dont yell at a 10 year old (or anyone for that matter) just because you dont believe in what they believe in.

Will I continue to say the pledge...everyday of my life until the day I die. If they change it and take out the words "Under God" will I still say those words? Absolutely.

There are other ways to stand up for what you believe in, I hope he never gives up on what he's trying to do, gays should have the same exact rights as we do, I just hope he does it in a different way, while being respectful.
 

16th ave.

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i generally agree with the kid being a smart ass and should have kept quite and handled the whole thing differently. but i think he's pretty cool b/c he does know his rights and was standing up for them because just doesn't feel that the pledge does represent Every citizen of this country. it says that in the article..
see: i hadn't realized that the kids are learning those rights and things that early on in school. i don't even remember learning most of that stuff until about the 6th grade. though i probably did and have just forgotten it. i've been forgetting lots of things so that wouldn't be a big surprise.

now, even though i ain't too sure much about some of my own beliefs (meaning i ain't even sure i do believe in god) but i don't much have a problem with saying the phrase about god and all. probably because i figure it was put in the pledge as something trying to show acceptance of all because that's what should people do--they accept everyone for who they are even if they happen to disagree with an opinion and the intentions behind that .
so i do and will say the pledge just as it is with that phrase about god.
 

Jeremy+3

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I would be proud of any of my children for sticking to their own beliefs, good on him, good on his parents as well, far too many people leave their children ignorant to politics.
 

bssage

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After reading the entire post and the attached artical.. I have to stick with my original conclusion. To me this has less to do with his convictions and more to do with being a smart a$$ .

He spoke with his parents before hand about the situation (meaning he planned in advance). His parents (and I dont care about the cause, its not the point) are gay right activist as stated in the artical. His beliefs of his parents? His folks had ample notice to speak with school officials and/or teacher.

After about 4 and 1/2 years of saying the pledge everyday he decides to begin this protest with a retired (65 I assume retirment age) temp, sub teacher at the helm instead of the teacher who was responsable for instructing him up to this point.

Noone ever said the teacher yelled at him. I'm sure because it would help her(the mom's) cause, if she could have stated he was yelled at. The artical and post states after several days she "raised her voice" . I guess being old school and knowing the family she thought (maybe misgiuded) that she was doing the right thing.

The next time you mistakenly blame your child or incorectly assume they did something wrong. Let me know if is still ok for them to tell you to go jump off a bridge, shoot yourself or anything along those lines.

The next time this "smart boy" wants to make a point maybe he could write a letter to the paper, address the school board. Maybe since he is so smart he could take his fight to someone other than a little 65 yr old lady trying to run a classroom full of little kids.

IMHO
 

ElliottCarasDad

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Jeremy+3 said:
I would be proud of any of my children for sticking to their own beliefs, good on him, good on his parents as well, far too many people leave their children ignorant to politics.
I've come to believe that most people are proud of others sticking to their beliefs only when they mirror their own.
 

IADad

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Jeremy+3 said:
Then you know far too many ignorant people.

Wow, really, you're going to dismiss his opinion like that? Tread lightly my man - ECDs opinion carries some food for thought. Let's remember to be respectful of everyone's opinions, please.
 

16th ave.

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IADad said:
Let's remember to be respectful of everyone's opinions, please.
yes, please, thank you.

only posted this as food for thought and get different opinions. same as other articles i post other news articles. not to cause folks to argue or make trouble.
 

IADad

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I haven't read everyone's response in detail, so pardon me if I mirror anything anyone else has said.

I have a few thoughts on the orignal article.

First - on the pledge itself - I've always thought it was somewhat backwards to pledge allegience to the flag and then to the country. aybe it's poetic, but it seems kind of backwards and to me seems to lessen the dedication to the principles. I think if it put more emphasis on the principles or liberties, then the symbol I'd be more comfortable.

Second - I struggle with teahing it by rote to kids. I don't disagree, just struggle. In the end I think the means can justify the end, it just seems a little creepy, teaching kids to recite something they don't understand. But you have to start the learning somewhere, I understand that. I have similar struggles with teaching prayers, creeds etc.

Third - as for this kid. I do applaud him standing up for his convictions. I hope it's a probduct of his parents teaching him to explore, investigate and form his own opinions and not just parrot theirs. I think the kid knows he's stirring the pot, and this is not so much about principles as it is flexing his muscles on being independant - but I don't think that totally dismisses the issue.

I hope he continues to look at his world, form his opinions and convictions and find the best avenues to affect the change he wants to see.
 

IADad

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16th ave. said:
yes, please, thank you.

only posted this as food for thought and get different opinions. same as other articles i post other news articles. not to cause folks to argue or make trouble.
and thanks for posting it - it's an interesting article with lots of leyers - good food for thought indeed.
 

IADad

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AmyBelle said:
until the country actually acted the way it sets out that it does in the allegance.

Amy, this comment intrigued me.

I'm wondering what we could possibly do that would earn your hypothetical pledge?

I understnad what you mean - we can be hypocritical in our actions around the globe. But we're a nation of diverse people, serving many interests and there are differing opnions on what liberty, and justice mean.

I guess, I'd rather have a child pledgiing to work towards those principles than sit on the sideline, waiting for someone else to solve the problem and then join in. I suspect I may have put words in your mouth, and I really don't mean to do so, but that's the result I got from your comment. I'd be interested in your feelings on us hypocritical americans and what we should be doing collectively to earn admiration and support. We see ourselves only from the inside all too often. It's when we get comments from outside our borders that we have to stop and think "Oh, really, people see us that way? Are we doing that?'

I'd love more perspective.

Thanks,
 

TabascoNatalie

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i'm outside of borders :D i don't really know what US pledge is exactly...
but here's what i think...

1) this kid was well "worked on" by adults. any 10yo wouldn't know what "gay" really is, not to meantion what's wrong about their rights and freedoms. after all, how come the story got to the papers? if he was 16 -- it would make no sensation.

2) now this boy is being picked on. who is going to stand up for him?
 

Jeremy+3

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The current pledge from 1954 is, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Under God was added in 1954, in the UK Americans keep to the original pledge, I'm not sure how common that is in the US though.

I could find you 100's of 10 year olds who know what being gay is and who know about gay rights as well.
 

IADad

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I agree with both of you. I do think the kid has been "worked" to some degree. I wonder how much he has questioned and embraced for himself. Only he knows, I guess.

I also agree that kids that age have opinions and vision into gay rights. Our 7 yo is right on the edge of venturing into such political and moral issues full force, and since gay rights issues are in the news so much, it doesn't seem far fetched at all. We have legal gay marriage here, so I know it's been a contentious issue in the media, both the issue and how government is handling the change. All kinds of collateral issues have sprung up in the wake of the change. (plus it's been big business here as people flock here to get married.)
 

bssage

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(in a very friendly tone)..

My point was not the virtues of the pledge. Or the right to express your opinion. My point was only when and with whom he choose to to begin his protest with. Picture this the artical states she was retired. If a teacher wants to speak hear please do. But I am guessing she's around 65+. I would consider teaching a large group of 10 yr olds to be stressfull enough for the full time all year teacher. Let alone someone subbing. I remember what we did to our sub's as a kid. Why do you think he choose this particular time and particular person to begin his protest??

And last I dont recall the part of the post that said he met with her after the initial conversation to share his reasons and points of veiw. Only that he refused repeatedly (I think) for a couple of days and said "Go jump off a bridge" after a couple of days with her trying to reason with him and raising her voice.

I think the pledge itself is probably responsable for many of the changes over the years in efforts to make it real for everyone. And I dont think being patriotic is a bad thing for any country.

After my many years being trained for this and that. One thing I have learned is to take the things you can use and not to dwell on the things you cant.

The pledge for many, is a wishfull sentiment. Is it bad? I dont think so.

ps I said "and last" way to soon.