The Battle Of Wills - A Battle For His Future...

[Shiroi Tora]

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Please allow me to put forth a reasoned argument toward one aspect of being a parent...the Authoritarian.

This, by no means, precludes being fully loving and affectionate. This merely stresses the need to be more when the situation warrants it.

Also...please forgive my centering of my text. It may seem strange to many at first. It is simply my style.


I am a retired Correctional Officer.


Those, in my old profession, are keen observers of human nature.

The safety of Officers, and Inmates alike, depend
on the Officers being able to predict actions of individuals,
and of groups, in different settings.

While, many times, they cannot predict these actions...
they must, at least, be able to see abnormal behavior of groups
and individuals (variations of the norm) as they unfold.

To do this...they must quickly assess individuals through their
body language, intonation, verbiage...etc. in order to discern
good, neutral, or evil intent.

I say this because, we, as human beings, are very similar in drives...
and so, in motives.

Many of the Inmates have never grown out of adolescence.
They are perpetual short term thinkers.

They had never learned the true value of deferred gratification.

Most dropped out of school...and so, out of life.

I had seen, time and again, through their actions...
that their parents had lost the battle of wills
with their children early in their development.

They sought to utilize the same tactics as a toddler
would, while being toilet trained.

All many know is pure stubbornness and aggression
when faced with opposition.

Many inmates feel that the world is against them...
in essence, they are correct...partially.

What they don't realize is...
what their parents had allowed them to get away with...
others won't.

They got used to going through life by trying to plow their way
through others by force of will.

They don't realize, especially when it comes in the workplace...
that though many won't directly oppose them...
and many will allow them momentary victory...
the doors of opportunity close...
most of the time, without them realizing there
were doors there in the first place.

They go through life, incorrectly thinking, that others
cannot discern intent in others by reading...
not only their actions, or inactions...
but their body language and speech patterns.

They are constantly being assessed in life by others...
and they are constantly being rejected in the first
few seconds of having been seen.

Attitude is often manifested in a way that others can pick up on.

This attitude is often the same one they had with their parents.

They never learned to overcome their natural urges...
as their tactics had always worked for them since childhood.

A successful tactic is one often used.
Something that is often used...
becomes habit.

A baby seeks to satisfy his needs.
All he knows is his immediate gratification urges.
He is pure... innocent... he harbors no evil intent.

We, as parents, know the need to suppress mere urges...
mere immediate gratification desires...
to achieve harmony with others...
while doing what is correct...
to achieve greater gains...
in the future.


To a child...
to constantly test the battle line...
where he can safely go without opposition...
or where, with enough effort, force his way past...
by putting up enough effort, in the short term, to gain
long term ease through the relaxation of standards...
by forcing the parent to compromise...is his ultimate goal.

For a parent to compromise standards because it is easier
for the moment...is to gain far worse testing in the future.

It is the child who must learn to adapt...
NOT the parent.

In this one vitally important lesson...
the child will become far more successful.

It is the organism that learns to adapt to his environment...
that flourishes.

A parent must know what is right...
must do what is right...
must never bow to pressures to do otherwise.

When the child becomes stubbornly wrong...
you must be even more stubbornly right.

It is when the child sees that he cannot defeat his parents...
that using whatever tactics, effort, words or action...
is an unsuccessful, and expensive, use of resources...
that is when he starts growing as a human...
starts learning to adapt.

It is not enough to merely say no.
A parent shows how to do it right.

An example to illustrate this point:

A child refuses to put his used clothes in the hamper...
not through direct refusal...but by merely not doing it.

It is through corrective direction and follow through...
that change comes about.

Instruct him to take his clothes off in front of the hamper
(in his room)...
it then becomes a simple matter of ease to drop them
(efficient plan).

Now... this is the important part...
after each and every clothes change...
(until the correct action becomes a habit)
check (follow through).

Consistency...
the swiftness and sureness of the correction is vital.

Should they not be in the hamper...
dump the whole contents of the hamper at his feet.

Have him pick up the entire contents of it and place it inside.

Just having him pick up the original clothes involves no more effort
than he would have had to in the first place...
and, in his mind, there was always the chance
that you would not have caught him.

This, in his mind, is a winning tactic.

By making the effort far more expensive to not do correctly
in the first place...rather than to do correctly...
the child learns that it is a losing tactic.

Should the child refuse to pick them up...
guide his hands.

You must not allow them to win at being wrong...
EVER.

This is what being a true parent entails.
It is the true love of your child in action.

No matter the tears or heartache...
from him, or from you...
know that it is right...
and that it shall be a key
to his development.

Know also, that by starting from the beginning...
never relenting...never compromising...
it becomes easier for both.

He will know what to expect from you...
stress is kept to a minimum.

Structure through firm boundaries allows the child
to not have the ever gnawing desire to test
that which he knows shall not give.

Your child's future happiness, and well being, is at stake.

Post Note:

Now...
we as parents, no matter how hard we try...
may not always be correct...
no one owns correctness through title...
however, so long as it is not dangerous...
the child must do the action first...
then he should be able to explain why he
thinks the action is wrong to have to do in the future...
through reason...not emotion.

Should he be right...
(what I do)
I apologize to him...
correct all future action...
and make it up with interest.

This teaches him the Concept Of Correctness regardless of status
(Critical Reasoning)...
and of the Concept Of Forgiveness​

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Any thoughts?

 

[heavyrain118]

Too long to read but I am trying...

 

[NPRhead]

"just your style"?

Also, it's TLDR for now, as I'm in a rush. But you have some interesting thoughts.

 

[alter ego]

I havent read the whole post, but I prefer for my children to self regulate and do the 'right' thing based on their own judgement, rather than blindly obey me.
I achieve this by modelling appropriate behaviour, encouraging my children to correct MY behaviour (ie "mum your shoes go by the door, not on the kitchen floor) and responding in an age appropriate manner. (ie if my toddler is hungry and tired, it is MY fault if she 'misbehaves" at the supermarket, as I havent attended to her needs where as my preteen would be expected to understand that Ill only be a second, and to be patient)
Im a hippy, raised by hippies who were raised by hippies.
So far the 100 odd members of my family (grandparents/aunties/uncles/siblings/nieces/nephews/my children) havent had any issue with society and the law.

 

[alter ego]

as for your example, if one of my children didnt put their clothes in the hamper, then they simply dont get washed. When they want their favourite jeans/top/whatever I remind them that if they werent in the hamper, they dont get washed.
My toddler happily puts the clothes in the hamper, as does my preteen.
One of the older childrens chores is the washing, so they are careful to make sure their clothes are done.

 

[IADad]

I don't think it's an all or nothing argument. I understand the OP's point of view about not allowing children to win at defiance, but it seems like some of the tactics almost invite defiance. Using the hamper issue, and that's a good one because we're working on that these days with my 9 yo (the 4 you does a better job, but changes clothes a lot less) anyway, if he doesn't put his laundry in the hamper, he is asked to do so, he is also in charge of bringing his hamper 9and sometimes ours) to the laundry room, so we're working on instilling that sense of contributing to a community. It's not a parent's job to clean up and do laundry, we all play a role, and when that process breaks down, he doesn't have this or that clean. He's tried fussing that it's someone else's fault or making excuses, but we don't allow that, he's allowed to express those thoughts but in the end they don't win. He's made to understand that he's responsible forr his own stuff and responsible for contributing to the operation of the household. I don't have to dump clothes at his feet to make him understand that. So, I'm not saying you're wrong ST, I'm saying we try to prempt some of those issues and teach responsibility from the beginning. I don't see parenting as rigid aherance to one style. I try to focus on basic principles, that I need to respect my kid's if they are to respect me and other's (e.g. I try not to stifle them or interrupt them, just as I teach and don't allow them to interrupt others.) I need to teach my kids - they don't come into the world knowing things, we need to teach them the things they need to know to go out and become fruitful and productive. I try to foster curiousity and creativity, we ask a lot of questions and make time for creative pursuits. Let's see, We do expect them to ultimately respect our decisions. We don't want them to blndly follow authority (so they aren't likely to get into a stranger's car just because and adult said so) but they understand that there are times when we value their inptu but decide to do something other than what they want and they must accept that. And we teach that life isn't always fair. The only things we can do are try to put ourselvs into situations where we can accomplish what we want, but ultimately we are responsible for our own actions and as unfair as it may be, the actions of others sometimes affects what we can or can't or must do.

In short that's my approach. So I don't see a need to for everything to be authoritarian, it's just not needed in the environment we create.

 

[parentastic]

Shiroi Tora, I read your post and I am so profoundly and deeply convinced that you are wrong, wrong and dead wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start to respond to your mail. So I am going to address some of the points you wrote here, but don't expect something fully structured or even remotely exhaustive. It ties in to such deep assumptions about people and their motivations that I might not even start to address it properly.

Before I start, let me stress out that we are coming from two complete and opposite background, and so perhaps some of the clash of worldview between us stems from there.
You are a retired Correctional Officer.
I am a family life educator.

I come from a place of social work, developmental psychology and fundamental human needs, social change, and a deep down respect for human beings and our ability to do right, if we are treated right. You come from a place of suspicion, fear, control and punishment, expecting violence and triggering it, associating "human nature" with wrong doing and defiance.
This being said, here are some thoughts on this post of yours:

Those, in my old profession, are keen observers of <I>human nature</I>. (...)I say this because, we, as human beings, are very similar in drives...
and so, in motives. (...)
They never learned to overcome their natural urges...

Underlying this is the assumption that "Human nature" is what you see in a jail. As if by definition, humans are "bad" and they are constantly fighting this "innate nature". It's called "determinism" and it has been studied over and over in sociology - and found to be fundamentally flawed. Human beings are much, much more than the behavior you may have seen in a correctional institution. Instead, I'd say that you have developed an ability to decode non verbal behavior - I think this would be a more fair way to describe your skills with observing inmates. What do you think?

Human beings all share fundamental needs.
And they all act in ways that enable them to fulfill their needs, so they share the same basic motives. However, the way they do this heavily depends on the tool-set that was given to them by their parents, by the love and nurturing they got, by the worldview that was engrained in them.
I think it's a HUGE, humongous stretch to imply that criminals have the same kind of "drives" than children. And a deeply dangerous assumption, too, for children have a tendency to develop precisely the way you expect them to and to reproduce precisely in their behavior the way you treat them.

they must, at least, be able to see abnormal behavior of groups
and individuals (variations of the norm) as they unfold

I would venture to think that the two situations are fundamentally different. The prison system WANTS inmates to fit in the box, behave like the norm and stay controlled. Parents WANT their children to develop what makes them unique and wonderful, and different from anyone else, so they can develop self-esteem and believe in themselves.

Many of the Inmates have never grown out of adolescence.
They are perpetual short term thinkers.

This is very true. The reason for this is given to us by the recent advances in neurobiology. We now know that the frontal cerebral cortex, the area of the brain responsible for a human being's ability to project ahead and weight in the consequences of their actions, is developed LAST between 15 and 25 years old. However, we also know that it can only properly develop and mature if it is in the proper conditions: safety, care, nurturing relationships and secure attachments, to name a few.
Inmates most usually come from difficult background, had to survive through harsh and difficult condition and through terrible parenting, and so the proper conditions for their brain to mature were not fully met.

This being said, again, there is a HUGE danger in comparing criminals and adolescent. Teenager's brains are not fully grown yet, and if you start acting with them as you would with an inmate, you will CAUSE their brain not to develop normally. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nasty.

Did you know that the VAST MAJORITY of inmates in USA prison all were SPANKED during their youth? Of course, not all spanked child end up being a criminal, but nearly no child raised through authoritative parenting (and NOT authoritarian) ever end up in prison. It's a quite striking perspective, isn't it?

I had seen, time and again, through their actions...
that their parents had lost the battle of wills
with their children early in their development.

I am sorry, but this is not true.
Their parents used techniques related to CONTROL and FORCE. (See above, about nearly all inmates coming from authoritarian parenting using spanking).
This causes some children to comply (submission, lying, avoidance) or to fight (rebellion, escalation).
Each time a parent retaliates by upping the ante, it possibly causes an even greater rebellion response, pushing children to be "defiant" even more, pushing children to drop out from school as an act to find back some autonomy, causing them to join gangs and peers to regain a measure of self-esteem, etc.

Did the parents "lost" the "battle of wills" with their children?
Certainly.
But they lost their children right from the start by engaging in that battle of will. It can only lead to breaking the will or pushing back the children to rebel so much they lost all influence and attachment to them.
You offer parents with 2 choices: losing the "battle of will" or breaking their will.

Yet it's a FALSE DILEMMA. Other solutions exists: communication, listening skills, perspective taking, mutual respect, problem solving and win-win solutions, to name only a few.

This attitude is often the same one they had with their parents. (...)
It is the child who must learn to adapt... NOT the parent.

Yet they got that attitude <I>because</I> of how their parents acted with them. It's a dynamic. It only makes sense as a dyad between two people. you can't put the blame on one without looking at the other.
Parents must constantly adapt as their children grow and acquire new responsibilities and new needs for independence.

What they don't realize is...
what their parents had allowed them to get away with...

It's not about letting them get away with anything.
It's about <I>how</I> you handle it as a parent.
If you treat your child as a criminal, that's exactly what they will become.

They got used to going through life by trying to plow their way
through others by force of will.

So in essence, you are reflecting on the idea that to prevent them from doing this, parents should plow their way through them by force?
Do you see the paradox here?

By making the effort far more expensive to not do correctly
in the first place...rather than to do correctly...
the child learns that it is a losing tactic.

They also learn that you are not trustworthy, that you take advantage of them, that whoever has the power has the right to do as they please; they learn that you are not worth respecting and that when YOU ask for their respect, your words are empty because you cannot show them the same respect.
And all of this could just have been done as successfully with communication, instead of punishment.

You must not allow them to win at being wrong...
EVER.

But can the parent be wrong too, sometimes?
What if they are?

Structure through firm boundaries allows the child
to not have the ever gnawing desire to test
that which he knows shall not give.

Flawed logic, I am sorry to say. It does not take into account the fundamental need a growing child has to define his own personality and become independent from the parent. They have this "gnawing desire to test" because what they really have is the IMPERATIVE, developmentally speaking, to define themselves as a separate and independent entity. Their brain development demands it and they cannot escape that need.
If your parenting is so rigid that it does not allow this to happen in a controlled and safe way, then your adolescent WILL rebel and WILL find ways to get away from you. They have no choice. It's how the brain is wired.

Your child's future happiness, and well being, is at stake.

It sure is. Authoritarian parenting? Best way to push your child toward that prison.

Nicolas, Family Life Educator

 

[Shiroi Tora]

Shiroi Tora, I read your post and I am so profoundly and deeply convinced that you are wrong, wrong and dead wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start to respond to your mail. So I am going to address some of the points you wrote here, but don't expect something fully structured or even remotely exhaustive. It ties in to such deep assumptions about people and their motivations that I might not even start to address it properly.

Before I start, let me stress out that we are coming from two complete and opposite background, and so perhaps some of the clash of worldview between us stems from there.
You are a retired Correctional Officer.
I am a family life educator.

I come from a place of social work, developmental psychology and fundamental human needs, social change, and a deep down respect for human beings and our ability to do right, if we are treated right. You come from a place of suspicion, fear, control and punishment, expecting violence and triggering it, associating "human nature" with wrong doing and defiance.
This being said, here are some thoughts on this post of yours:


Underlying this is the assumption that "Human nature" is what you see in a jail. As if by definition, humans are "bad" and they are constantly fighting this "innate nature". It's called "determinism" and it has been studied over and over in sociology - and found to be fundamentally flawed. Human beings are much, much more than the behavior you may have seen in a correctional institution. Instead, I'd say that you have developed an ability to decode non verbal behavior - I think this would be a more fair way to describe your skills with observing inmates. What do you think?

Human beings all share fundamental needs.
And they all act in ways that enable them to fulfill their needs, so they share the same basic motives. However, the way they do this heavily depends on the tool-set that was given to them by their parents, by the love and nurturing they got, by the worldview that was engrained in them.
I think it's a HUGE, humongous stretch to imply that criminals have the same kind of "drives" than children. And a deeply dangerous assumption, too, for children have a tendency to develop precisely the way you expect them to and to reproduce precisely in their behavior the way you treat them.


I would venture to think that the two situations are fundamentally different. The prison system WANTS inmates to fit in the box, behave like the norm and stay controlled. Parents WANT their children to develop what makes them unique and wonderful, and different from anyone else, so they can develop self-esteem and believe in themselves.


This is very true. The reason for this is given to us by the recent advances in neurobiology. We now know that the frontal cerebral cortex, the area of the brain responsible for a human being's ability to project ahead and weight in the consequences of their actions, is developed LAST between 15 and 25 years old. However, we also know that it can only properly develop and mature if it is in the proper conditions: safety, care, nurturing relationships and secure attachments, to name a few.
Inmates most usually come from difficult background, had to survive through harsh and difficult condition and through terrible parenting, and so the proper conditions for their brain to mature were not fully met.

This being said, again, there is a HUGE danger in comparing criminals and adolescent. Teenager's brains are not fully grown yet, and if you start acting with them as you would with an inmate, you will CAUSE their brain not to develop normally. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nasty.

Did you know that the VAST MAJORITY of inmates in USA prison all were SPANKED during their youth? Of course, not all spanked child end up being a criminal, but nearly no child raised through authoritative parenting (and NOT authoritarian) ever end up in prison. It's a quite striking perspective, isn't it?


I am sorry, but this is not true.
Their parents used techniques related to CONTROL and FORCE. (See above, about nearly all inmates coming from authoritarian parenting using spanking).
This causes some children to comply (submission, lying, avoidance) or to fight (rebellion, escalation).
Each time a parent retaliates by upping the ante, it possibly causes an even greater rebellion response, pushing children to be "defiant" even more, pushing children to drop out from school as an act to find back some autonomy, causing them to join gangs and peers to regain a measure of self-esteem, etc.

Did the parents "lost" the "battle of wills" with their children?
Certainly.
But they lost their children right from the start by engaging in that battle of will. It can only lead to breaking the will or pushing back the children to rebel so much they lost all influence and attachment to them.
You offer parents with 2 choices: losing the "battle of will" or breaking their will.

Yet it's a FALSE DILEMMA. Other solutions exists: communication, listening skills, perspective taking, mutual respect, problem solving and win-win solutions, to name only a few.


Yet they got that attitude <I>because</I> of how their parents acted with them. It's a dynamic. It only makes sense as a dyad between two people. you can't put the blame on one without looking at the other.
Parents must constantly adapt as their children grow and acquire new responsibilities and new needs for independence.


It's not about letting them get away with anything.
It's about <I>how</I> you handle it as a parent.
If you treat your child as a criminal, that's exactly what they will become.


So in essence, you are reflecting on the idea that to prevent them from doing this, parents should plow their way through them by force?
Do you see the paradox here?


They also learn that you are not trustworthy, that you take advantage of them, that whoever has the power has the right to do as they please; they learn that you are not worth respecting and that when YOU ask for their respect, your words are empty because you cannot show them the same respect.
And all of this could just have been done as successfully with communication, instead of punishment.


But can the parent be wrong too, sometimes?
What if they are?


Flawed logic, I am sorry to say. It does not take into account the fundamental need a growing child has to define his own personality and become independent from the parent. They have this "gnawing desire to test" because what they really have is the IMPERATIVE, developmentally speaking, to define themselves as a separate and independent entity. Their brain development demands it and they cannot escape that need.
If your parenting is so rigid that it does not allow this to happen in a controlled and safe way, then your adolescent WILL rebel and WILL find ways to get away from you. They have no choice. It's how the brain is wired.


It sure is. Authoritarian parenting? Best way to push your child toward that prison.

Nicolas, Family Life Educator

I thought that by my writing in that the authoritarian is what sometimes must be used....let me say this again....sometimes...it would have been taken as such. The parent must use the style which fits the situation. There is no one way to use all the time.

My point is that when it is never used that the child learns to plow his way through life. It was said in this context. It meant nothing more than this.

It should have preempted the replies dictating the false content as described.


Most of the criminals had a commonality that I had observed. Their way of thinking was an aberration of healthful...productive thinking. Just by this very nature...it was not a direct comparison of children to criminals.

It especially is not to say that criminal behavior is the sum of human behavior.

Also...by teaching children correctly EARLY in life will preclude many of the problem issues later in life. I really don't see how it could have been taken any other way.

Please realize that I am of an age where I have retired...I have many experiences, other than with criminals, from which I draw upon.

My point is that a child that never grows up emotionally...will use many of the same tactics as he matures. Selfish behavior often becomes behavior that manifest itself into socially unacceptable ones...sometimes so extreme as to go in direct opposition with the law.

Please remember...I was pointing out the correction of children EARLY on...if the same opposition is met when they are teens...well...perhaps when they were very young...the lesson would have been better taught then.

Another point...most of the criminals came into our system AFTER discipline physically was toned WAY down. Most were not abused...most were simply selfish and spoiled. Many of the criminals were not even born when I had first started.

Again...please re-read the post in the correct context....I, in no way, either expressed or implied Authoritarian as the end all to parenting...just the complete absence of it as a tool when it is necessary...as incorrect.

 

[Shiroi Tora]

I don't think it's an all or nothing argument.

In short that's my approach. So I don't see a need to for everything to be authoritarian, it's just not needed in the environment we create.

I really don't know how others could have understood it to be all one way.

OK...this is verbatim....my FIRST three sentences...

Please allow me to put forth a reasoned argument toward one aspect of being a parent...the Authoritarian.

This, by no means, precludes being fully loving and affectionate. This merely stresses the need to be more when the situation warrants it.

Notice in the first sentence...the word - ONE - just before the word aspect.

Just re-read the second and third sentences...along with the first. Really read it...digest what it actually means.

I am quite astounded that any misunderstanding could have come about as I had prefaced the body of the post with it. There really is no room for confusion through ambiguity.

 

[Shiroi Tora]

Also...please do not fret about the unusual layout. It looks far longer than it actually is...because of the spaces used.

Overall reading time is what? One minute...perhaps two?

Sorry...I was going to add it to the bottom of my above post and delete this one...couldn't find the delete button...and so, here it stands.

 

[alter ego]

i dont think authoritive parenting is ever needed, if the the foundation for self regulation and self discipline are laid correctly.
if either of my mums told me they were disapointed in my actions, it inspired me to correct my actions far more than an authoritive punishment would.

 

[singledad]

Just re-read the second and third sentences...along with the first. Really read it...digest what it actually means.

I am quite astounded that any misunderstanding could have come about as I had prefaced the body of the post with it. There really is no room for confusion through ambiguity.

Misunderstandings happen easily on forums. I find that people do no truly analyse what others write, and make sure they get the full picture before they reply. Me, I am still digesting this post. I have read it numerous times, but i am still organising my thoughts for my reply.

Perhaps I have an advantage, because in ny profession a small misunderstanding can cause days of wasted time, so I have learnt to make sure that I really understand what is written.

Also...please do not fret about the unusual layout. It looks far longer than it actually is...because of the spaces used.

Overall reading time is what? One minute...perhaps two?

Sorry...I was going to add it to the bottom of my above post and delete this one...couldn't find the delete button...and so, here it stands.

The centred format is difficult to read. That is why it is against "nettiquette" and that is why people are complaining about the length.. Me, I copied and pasted it to a text editor to read it...

 

[Shiroi Tora]

i dont think authoritive parenting is ever needed, if the the foundation for self regulation and self discipline are laid correctly.
if either of my mums told me they were disapointed in my actions, it inspired me to correct my actions far more than an authoritive punishment would.

Authoritative use of corrective actions in no way equates to punishment. Plus...we are talking children...again...children. By virtue of a child being a child...well...they sometimes simply will not do what needs to be done...what do you do then? Sometimes the solution need be effected in a timely manner...what then?

Of course, Positive Reinforcement should always be used as the mainstay. There are, at times...and some individuals more than others...when they simply say no...or simply do not do what needs to be done...and when it needs to be done.

Children have an underdeveloped impulse control area in the brain. It actually doesn't fully develop in some individuals until after adolescence (25 or so years old).

I am sorry...I really must ask you....are you a parent? I am not trying to insult. It just seems that you speak from the child's point of view...and not the parent's (only because of your reference to your childhood and not to any interactions with your child as evidence to support your argument).

If not...believe me...you will have to adapt to, not only ever changing situations, but unpredictability in your child (at times).

To do so...you must have your tool bag filled and ready. I was talking of...but one tool in the bag to use when...and only when...it is necessary.

 

[Shiroi Tora]

Misunderstandings happen easily on forums. I find that people do no truly analyse what others write, and make sure they get the full picture before they reply. Me, I am still digesting this post. I have read it numerous times, but i am still organising my thoughts for my reply.

Perhaps I have an advantage, because in ny profession a small misunderstanding can cause days of wasted time, so I have learnt to make sure that I really understand what is written.


The centred format is difficult to read. That is why it is against "nettiquette" and that is why people are complaining about the length.. Me, I copied and pasted it to a text editor to read it...

I am sorry but I really must comment on the centered format as being difficult to read. The ideas are grouped. We as parents must be far...far...FAR more adaptable in many situations. We must teach adaptability to our children. We must teach them to analyze and prioritize.

I must ask others...if it really pains you so much to read in a different manner (you have never read poetry?...before someone jumps on the word poetry...no...I am not comparing my post to poetry...it is often times presented the same way...in the center)...please...you will get nothing from what I have to say. However...just ask yourself...does it really pain you to read it....Really?

 

[alter ego]

Authoritative use of corrective actions in no way equates to punishment. Plus...we are talking children...again...children. By virtue of a child being a child...well...they sometimes simply will not do what needs to be done...what do you do then? Sometimes the solution need be effected in a timely manner...what then?

Of course, Positive Reinforcement should always be used as the mainstay. There are, at times...and some individuals more than others...when they simply say no...or simply do not do what needs to be done...and when it needs to be done.

Children have an underdeveloped impulse control area in the brain. It actually doesn't fully develop in some individuals until after adolescence (25 or so years old).

I am sorry...I really must ask you....are you a parent? I am not trying to insult. It just seems that you speak from the child's point of view...and not the parent's (only because of your reference to your childhood and not to any interactions with your child as evidence to support your argument).

If not...believe me...you will have to adapt to, not only ever changing situations, but unpredictability in your child (at times).

To do so...you must have your tool bag filled and ready. I was talking of...but one tool in the bag to use when...and only when...it is necessary.

i have 6 children aged 12 to 17 months. im one of 5 children.
no 'punishment' has ever been needed in my childhood or my childrens.
i understand the way our brains work as I was once upon a time a medical professional.
if something is not done, there are natural consequences. household chores benefit us all, and my children happily do their share.
if they dont do something (perhaps you could give some examples and Ill adress them?) then i first make sure it is within their capabilities (ie my 17 month old wouldnt be expected to wash dishes), ill then ask if there is a reason why it isnt done(and my preteen often is 'busy' when i ask her to do something) then i set the deadline with a natural logical consequence (ie ' if the table isnt set we cant eat dinner. it needs to be done now please, you can chat to your friend once we are finished eating' or 'if washing doesnt go in the hamper, it doesnt get washed. you wont have any clothes to wear this weekend, so what do you need to do?')

 

[parentastic]

Authoritative use of corrective actions...

Please allow me to put forth a reasoned argument toward one aspect of being a parent...the Authoritarian.

By the way, I noticed that you seem to use 'authoritative' and 'authoritarian' alternatively in your posts. Please note that 'authoritative' and 'authoritarian' are two completely different parenting styles. (click to read about the difference)

I don't think I misunderstood your post in any way.
Your title makes it very clear: "The battle of wills, a battle for his future".
And engaging in a "battle of wills" with a child is a logic of escalation.
It is what causes rebellion and submission, two equally negative reactions of any human being to being bullied.

 

[singledad]

I am sorry but I really must comment on the centered format as being difficult to read. The ideas are grouped. We as parents must be far...far...FAR more adaptable in many situations. We must teach adaptability to our children. We must teach them to analyze and prioritize.

I must ask others...if it really pains you so much to read in a different manner (you have never read poetry?...before someone jumps on the word poetry...no...I am not comparing my post to poetry...it is often times presented the same way...in the center)...please...you will get nothing from what I have to say. However...just ask yourself...does it really pain you to read it....Really?

Really - its not the fact that its different that is a problem. Its the fact that the norm is actually the norm for a good reason - left adjustment makes it easy on your eyes to find the beginning of the next line. As a matter of fact, I love poetry. I enjoy it when a poet uses form to complement and/or emphasise the content of his poem. When I'm absorbing information, though, I prefer give my full attention to the content, and to not be distracted by alignment.

Btw. I actually get a lot out of your posts. I've been thinking about this one since yesterday, in conjunction with your reply to my deferred gratification thread. I will reply as soon as I have ordered my thoughts.

 

[Shiroi Tora]

By the way, I noticed that you seem to use 'authoritative' and 'authoritarian' alternatively in your posts. Please note that 'authoritative' and 'authoritarian' are two completely different parenting styles. (lick to read about the difference)

I don't think I misunderstood your post in any way.
Your title makes it very clear: "The battle of wills, a battle for his future".
And engaging in a "battle of wills" with a child is a logic of escalation.
It is what causes rebellion and submission, two equally negative reactions of any human being to being bullied.

No..the parent engaging the child using the Authoritarian role...uses Authoritative corrective actions...actions using the position of authority to correct...and hopefully, modify another's actions.

Again...this is when it becomes a worse case scenario early on in the child's life so as to modify later actions. Not something that is relied upon throughout the child's life. A teaching tool when all else fails first...and when the YOUNG child has crossed the line and refuses to return.

YES...again...Positive Reinforcement...leading by example...giving extra time...all other measures first and foremost. This is for those certain situations where the mainstay has failed.

I really don't know where bullying comes in. I know how to be an Authoritarian without bullying. Your bosses at work know how too don't they? It is no different. They can lead and advise..but sometimes it must come down to you having to do something that you may not necessarily like...but something that you must do...regardless. Your employer has policies and procedures...and all types of management is used by the good leader...before Authoritarian. However...especially under time constraints...ultimately...it is the worker who must adapt. When they do not...the machine falls apart...the mission fails...the workers take advantage (these are adults). The ultimate fallback is force of will by the boss (is this punishment? No)...anything to get the mission completed.

 

[Shiroi Tora]

Really - its not the fact that its different that is a problem. Its the fact that the norm is actually the norm for a good reason - left adjustment makes it easy on your eyes to find the beginning of the next line. As a matter of fact, I love poetry. I enjoy it when a poet uses form to complement and/or emphasise the content of his poem. When I'm absorbing information, though, I prefer give my full attention to the content, and to not be distracted by alignment.

Btw. I actually get a lot out of your posts. I've been thinking about this one since yesterday, in conjunction with your reply to my deferred gratification thread. I will reply as soon as I have ordered my thoughts.

I ask those who say they are really bothered too much by the center alignment to...please skip the post. Singledad, I sincerely hope you do not skip it. You have been respectful and you have had some good replies in other posts.

Please remember...it shouldn't be form over function. It is content over delivery. Especially in this age...do you not talk to someone because of their manner of dress? Do you throw away a present because of the wrapping? Do you go around in life doing only what others do because it is expected...it is the norm?

Think of my post as eyeball exercise...left...right...down...left..right...down (OMG so quickly)...left...right...down...OH NO...he did it again! And he even skipped three lines! :arghh: How will I manage? Let me concentrate...left...right...down...there we go...I am in the groove! Why...I think that I can actually see better! My mind is actually clearer! I feel so alive!

Sorry...just having some fun.

 

[alter ego]

if i were in a workplace where if i hadnt completed a task (ie putting clothes in the hamper) and my boss shamed me by yelling and dumping the work at my feet, i would sue and win a workplace bullying case.
every workplace i have been in has Standard Operating Procedures. if an employee doesnt complete work satisfactorily then there is a system of verbal 'warnings' all of which are given in a polite constructive manner, then written warnings before eventual dismissal.
if it is a safety matter they are dismissed on the spot.
if you would use authorative(or authoritan) techniques on workers you would end up out of business!
there is a real struggle to find workers in my area, and having subpar management would ensure many headaches!