The Battle Of Wills - A Battle For His Future...

[Shiroi Tora]

if i were in a workplace where if i hadnt completed a task (ie putting clothes in the hamper) and my boss shamed me by yelling and dumping the work at my feet, i would sue and win a workplace bullying case.
every workplace i have been in has Standard Operating Procedures. if an employee doesnt complete work satisfactorily then there is a system of verbal 'warnings' all of which are given in a polite constructive manner, then written warnings before eventual dismissal.
if it is a safety matter they are dismissed on the spot.
if you would use authorative(or authoritan) techniques on workers you would end up out of business!
there is a real struggle to find workers in my area, and having subpar management would ensure many headaches!

Any time a superior instructs you to do something....that is in fact Authoritarian style management. It doesn't have to be rude. You don't have to like it...it just has to be done. They are simply instructing you to do something....without your input. They expect it to be followed. Should you not...they will do something to make sure it is more expensive for you to not do it...than to do it right the first time. The ante goes up with each refusal...until termination. The bottom line...you will in the end...do it. It is your choice how expensive it gets before you do so.

The example of the clothes being dumped was after refusal to do as instructed. It was also an example to illustrate the central point of making something more expensive to not do than to do correctly in the first place.

Two key points here...

One: Training a young child.

Two: Training a young child who consistently refuses to do as instructed. A last resort type of thing. I am sure you understand. Please don't belabor this same point.

 

[singledad]

Think of my post as eyeball exercise...left...right...down...left..right...down (OMG so quickly)...left...right...down...OH NO...he did it again! And he even skipped three lines! :arghh: How will I manage? Let me concentrate...left...right...down...there we go...I am in the groove! Why...I think that I can actually see better! My mind is actually clearer! I feel so alive!

Sorry...just having some fun.

LOL!

So, I've been thinking about this subject a lot. Your post struck me very deeply, and scared me quite a bit, in two ways -
1. The accuracy with which you described a younger, infinitely more screwed up, but thankfully long dead version of myself.
2. The link between his behaviour and the quest for instant gratification.

And so I find myself asking - did I need more discipline as a child? Admittedly, I got almost none. I was not taught to tell right from wrong, or to respect boundaries. But I find myself answering no - my biggest need wasn't discipline, it was love, guidance, understanding.

Perhaps I am not a good example. My childhood was... Extreme. And my reaction to it equally so.

And so we get to the part that scares me - my daughter. Fortunately, my daughter responds well to positive re-enforcement and natural consequences. But not always. She can be very stubborn - she gets that from me! And honestly - at times I am at a loss. I know it is my own fault - for the first few months after we lost her mother, I gave in too easily. I was too overwhelmed, too distraught, and I allowed her to form a few very bad habits. Now, we need to break them. I've been trying to be more authoritative, but with mixed success. She is inclined to rebel against punishment, rather than submit. Again - much like me . For the past week or so, I've also been working very specifically on deferred gratification, with surprisingly quick results. Perhaps that is the path I should follow - get her to master deferred gratification first, and discipline will follow? I can definitely see that most of our discipline issues are related to her quest for instant gratification, and her inability to understand the need to, at times, do things that are far from enjoyable - such as tidying her room...

The one thing I know for sure, is that I don't want her to learn these things the way I learnt them - the hard way.

I will continue to follow this thread, as with each post you make, I learn a bit more.

 

[alter ego]

the biggest difference is that i would train a dog, but prefer to guide my children.
parenthood is not a battle of wills. i WANT my children to express themselves and be free thinkers, rather than blindly following instructions 'because i said so'
and ive never encounters a workplace where staff were instructed. they are requested to xyz.
'would you please do xyz?' works far better than 'do xyz'
yes it is their job, but manners are free.

 

[alter ego]

singledad, my 6yo girls are very much the same.
they listen when they choose to. its just a phase
we have a family chore chart on the wall, and everyone ticks off thier jobs once they are complete (including my husband and i).
then if they ask to play video games/go to the park ill ask them if everything is ticked off first they check, finish their chore then come back and say 'all done'
id be lost without the chart, as we have after school classes/sports, plus academic extension during school time (which i drive the students to) and i still have my youngest 2 at home, with their swimming lessons/toddler gym/playgroup, not to mention housework and meals prep!

 

[Shiroi Tora]

LOL!

So, I've been thinking about this subject a lot. Your post struck me very deeply, and scared me quite a bit, in two ways -
1. The accuracy with which you described a younger, infinitely more screwed up, but thankfully long dead version of myself.
2. The link between his behaviour and the quest for instant gratification.

And so I find myself asking - did I need more discipline as a child? Admittedly, I got almost none. I was not taught to tell right from wrong, or to respect boundaries. But I find myself answering no - my biggest need wasn't discipline, it was love, guidance, understanding.

Perhaps I am not a good example. My childhood was... Extreme. And my reaction to it equally so.

And so we get to the part that scares me - my daughter. Fortunately, my daughter responds well to positive re-enforcement and natural consequences. But not always. She can be very stubborn - she gets that from me! And honestly - at times I am at a loss. I know it is my own fault - for the first few months after we lost her mother, I gave in too easily. I was too overwhelmed, too distraught, and I allowed her to form a few very bad habits. Now, we need to break them. I've been trying to be more authoritative, but with mixed success. She is inclined to rebel against punishment, rather than submit. Again - much like me . For the past week or so, I've also been working very specifically on deferred gratification, with surprisingly quick results. Perhaps that is the path I should follow - get her to master deferred gratification first, and discipline will follow? I can definitely see that most of our discipline issues are related to her quest for instant gratification, and her inability to understand the need to, at times, do things that are far from enjoyable - such as tidying her room...

The one thing I know for sure, is that I don't want her to learn these things the way I learnt them - the hard way.

I will continue to follow this thread, as with each post you make, I learn a bit more.

Excellent. I am glad you stayed with the discussion. You have a lot to give. I am also here to learn from others. That is the beauty of an open forum. An open and valid discussion helps every participant. Am I a parent extraordinaire? NO. That is why I am here. Discussion gives me insight to others' problems and their solutions.

It would be unfair of me to not share what I have found to be successful to those from whom I wish to extract practical information. I take...therefore, I must give.

I have more to share...but later in other posts...but be forewarned....it will be center aligned...OH NOOOOO....

 

[singledad]

I never meant to leave the discussion. I was just trying to explain why people were complaining about the length of the post

 

[singledad]

if they ask to play video games/go to the park ill ask them if everything is ticked off first they check, finish their chore then come back and say 'all done'

That's what I've been trying, but if I turn my back, I can be sure that when I come back, I'll find her playing instead of putting her toys away :/

 

[alter ego]

That's what I've been trying, but if I turn my back, I can be sure that when I come back, I'll find her playing instead of putting her toys away :/

Then the game goes away until she has demonstrated that she is responsible enough to complete her 'work' before play.
My oldest had a bare room at one stage, I even took away her favourite linen, until she started to respect her possessions. (we had terrible 4s with her, and I was a 'teen' mum, and pregnant/newborn at the same time.)
Now she helps the littlies get dressed/breakfast/beds made/rooms tidy every day. (I even slept in till 10am today, as the toddler/baby both did too!)

 

[Shiroi Tora]

the biggest difference is that i would train a dog, but prefer to guide my children.
parenthood is not a battle of wills. i WANT my children to express themselves and be free thinkers, rather than blindly following instructions 'because i said so'
and ive never encounters a workplace where staff were instructed. they are requested to xyz.
'would you please do xyz?' works far better than 'do xyz'
yes it is their job, but manners are free.

Ok..Alter Ego...I am not sure if you are purposely being obtuse or not. I'll go with not right now. The battle of wills is not a method of operation. It is not of your choosing. It is not authoritarian using rudeness. It is certainly not Authoritarian as the main method of operation.

It IS the not giving in to a battle of wills as a tactic FROM your child. To do so, teaches them that it is a winning tactic. It need NOT be done over and over since the young child...by having standards that don't flex with the emotional endurance of the parent on that particular day...realizes that when you set standards...you mean it. They don't constantly try to test the limits....they realize that they won't give. When the parent is wishy washy...there is always a chance that to be stubborn is sometimes a winning tactic. That almost guarantees they will try the limits over and over again.

 

[IADad]

after skimming through much of the comment, sorry, there's a lot there. a few things jump out at me.

The format thing, come on people, get over it, he warned you about it, if it bothers you copy and paste it into another document and justify it however you want.

Second, I wonder, if he'd have used "leadership" instead of "authoritarian." If the back lash would have been so severe. I think we're dealing with some differences in language here. When he say's when a superior tells you to do something, that's and authroitative approach. Well, I would never use that word to describe it, it has a negative connotation to me. I would use "leader" or "strong leader" to describe that approach. Authoritative to me connotes a much more negative action, to me it's inflexible and no willing to receive input. So, consider we may not all be speaking the same language here.

And lastly I do see his point and think that there is a point that some children are raised entirely without structure, there are no boundaries and it's all done in the name of exploration when in fact it's laziness. I see it all the time. I was probably as sad to see my post dismissed as the OP was to seeing negative reaction.

Lastly, I'm not so sure about the testing the limitations. I think children will always test some limitations and not others, it's the same as society in general, most of us continue to test the speed limits, while few of us (hopefully none) have tested the boundaries of the murder statutes. So, kids will test boundaries, some we can have some flexibility with some we cannot, and some, hopefully, we've taught are so serious, they know not to test them.

 

[IADad]

I really don't know how others could have understood it to be all one way.

OK...this is verbatim....my FIRST three sentences...

Please allow me to put forth a reasoned argument toward one aspect of being a parent...the Authoritarian.

This, by no means, precludes being fully loving and affectionate. This merely stresses the need to be more when the situation warrants it.

Notice in the first sentence...the word - ONE - just before the word aspect.

Just re-read the second and third sentences...along with the first. Really read it...digest what it actually means.

I am quite astounded that any misunderstanding could have come about as I had prefaced the body of the post with it. There really is no room for confusion through ambiguity.

and please don't condescend to me. I stuck up for you, it would appear that perhaps you read very little of my response. Consider that people put a lot of time into responses, that, like it or not, mis-construed or not, they had strong feelings about, just as strong as your convictions. You put it forward, characterized is as "a battle," and you don't see why people think you're taking a confrontational stance? You're a master of perception, yet you've been completely blind-sided and astounded by this response? I don't buy it.

 

[parentastic]

The problem, Shiroi Tora, is that you do not listen to your critiques. Your initial post made me react strongly, and there are many reasons for this. Since then, it has not improved.

First, you post this long, and very extreme post about the "danger", as you put it, to fail to win "the battle of will" as a parent, and you proceed to justify and explain your position by comparing it with the "human nature" you observed as a correctional officer.

You are then challenged with the format (writing a long and detailed text center-aligned). Readers offer you some feedback: you are being told by that it is hard to read, that there are norms for writing because the eyes naturally go to the left, that it decrease your understandability and, to an extend, makes your text less likely to be read and to be appreciated.
Are you listening to the feedback? Are you even considering it?
No. Instead, you belittle people who gave you the feedback or dismiss their critique by saying it's really not that difficult to read.

I think that this example, although quite insignificant in and of itself, gives a good idea of the core problem here.
You are promoting the idea of "always wining the battle of will" - and this is <I>exactly</I> what you are attempting to do here.
Instead of <I>learning from your feedback</I> - instead of <I>listening</I>, you push back, you dismiss, you joke, you refute.
The net result is that you are frustrating people, you get less listened to in return; your content is lost or diluted; and sound condescending each time you try to defend your arguments.

So I am venturing to say that this is <I>exactly</I> the result you get when you engage in that "battle of will" with a child, as a parent.
The more you use the tactics you describe, the less you are being listened to. The "battle of will" escalates as children reacts <I>like any human being</I>, including the readers here - with resistance and defensiveness.

Is your goal to "win" the argument here?
Or Is your goal to pass a message, share information, discuss the importance of not giving up in an argument with a child and convince your readers of your point?
Because if it is the latter rather than the former, your "battle of will" is spectacularly failing.
Which is <I>precisely</I> my point.

When you take a parental decision about what is going on with your child, isn't your goal to have the child accept that decision and listen to you?
Yet the "battle of will" does <I>exactly the contrary</I>.
It pushes the child to react, to rebel, to shut you off, to stop listening to you. And that counterproductive.
Your "authoritarian" method only promote this. They do not let the space for flexibility, for admitting that perhaps, <I>perhaps</I> sometimes, the parent might be wrong. That <I>perhaps</I>, your child deserves to be listened to and, who knows? Maybe sometimes, you can come up with a mutually acceptable, creative solution rather than <I>"your</I> way or the high way".

Just like you are doing right here in this thread.

If you want people to listen to you, start by listening to them.
As IAdad said, people spend a lot of time to write their response. The least you could do is to <I>really </I>read them.

You can start right here, by responding to all of the critics I have already offered your post in detail in post number 6, and that you did not even took the time to address and respond, other than to dismiss it globally in post #7. Let me specifically quote the key pieces you ignored:

About every human being having the same motives yet being deeply different than criminals:

they all act in ways that enable them to fulfill their needs, so they share the same basic motives. However, the way they do this heavily depends on the tool-set that was given to them by their parents, by the love and nurturing they got, by the worldview that was engrained in them.

About the danger of self-fulfilling prophecies:

there is a HUGE danger in comparing criminals and adolescent. Teenager's brains are not fully grown yet, and if you start acting with them as you would with an inmate, you will CAUSE their brain not to develop normally. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nasty.
If you treat your child as a criminal, that's exactly what they will become.

About the paradox of doing to children exactly what you are trying to teach them not to do:

So in essence, you are reflecting on the idea that to prevent children from doing this, parents should plow their way through them by force? Do you see the paradox here?

[/QUOTE]

About this astonishing fact that contradicts all of your opinion regarding the danger for children to "win" the battle of will:

Did you know that the VAST MAJORITY of inmates in USA prison all were SPANKED during their youth? Of course, not all spanked child end up being a criminal, but nearly no child raised through authoritative parenting (and NOT authoritarian) ever end up in prison. It's a quite striking perspective, isn't it?

About the logic of escalation:

This causes some children to comply (submission, lying, avoidance) or to fight (rebellion, escalation).
Each time a parent retaliates by upping the ante, it possibly causes an even greater rebellion response, pushing children to be "defiant" even more, pushing children to drop out from school as an act to find back some autonomy, causing them to join gangs and peers to regain a measure of self-esteem, etc.

About the possibility that the parent might also be wrong, sometimes?

You must not allow them to win at being wrong...
EVER.

But can the parent be wrong too, sometimes? What if they are?

So, would you kindly respond to these points? Or will you ignore them... and try to "win the battle of will" with me, perhaps?

 

[parentastic]

Your post struck me very deeply, and scared me quite a bit, in two ways -
1. The accuracy with which you described a younger, infinitely more screwed up, but thankfully long dead version of myself.
2. The link between his behaviour and the quest for instant gratification.

Singledad, one of the reason I reacted so strongly to the OP's post in this thread is because this kind of rethorics has a powerful attraction on many parents, yet it may also have very strong negative consequences on children on the long run... :sad: so it makes my blood boil quite fast.
When I read your initial paragraph, I felt that way.

But I find myself answering no - my biggest need wasn't discipline, it was love, guidance, understanding. (...)
The one thing I know for sure, is that I don't want her to learn these things the way I learnt them - the hard way.

...and I felt so relieved when I read this!

And so we get to the part that scares me - my daughter. (...) She can be very stubborn - she gets that from me! And honestly - at times I am at a loss. I know it is my own fault - for the first few months after we lost her mother, I gave in too easily. I was too overwhelmed, too distraught, and I allowed her to form a few very bad habits. Now, we need to break them. I've been trying to be more authoritative, but with mixed success. She is inclined to rebel against punishment, rather than submit.

If you'd like to try something different, I think I could help you with that, using what I teach in my workshop, if you'd be willing to give it a try.

 

[parentastic]

Authoritative to me connotes a much more negative action, to me it's inflexible and no willing to receive input. So, consider we may not all be speaking the same language here.

Well, considering that "authoritative" and "authoritarian" are used interchangably in this thread, even though they mean completely different things, I think it's a fair guess to say we do have language issues!

However, I venture to say that the OP means exactly this:
Inflexible and not willing to receive input.

It is apparent in many places:

It is the child who must learn to adapt...
NOT the parent.

and

When the child becomes stubbornly wrong...
you must be even more stubbornly right.

and

You must not allow them to win at being wrong...
EVER.

and

never relenting...never compromising...

He even admits then even when the parents KNOWS he is wrong, there is still not compromise as the action has to be performed anyway first by the child:

we as parents, no matter how hard we try...
may not always be correct...
no one owns correctness through title...
however, so long as it is not dangerous...
the child must do the action first...
then he should be able to explain why he
thinks the action is wrong to have to do in the future...

According to this extreme logic, if the parent were to say:
"Jump over the cliff!" and the child was scared and said "No..." then the child should still jump to his death first, and the parent can discuss it with the child after and eventually apologize - but god forbid that he could ever show that it's possible to "lose the battle of will"!

So I think that the extremeness of his position is quite clear, regardless of terms.

And lastly I do see his point and think that there is a point that some children are raised entirely without structure, there are no boundaries and it's all done in the name of exploration when in fact it's laziness. I see it all the time.

Yes, I totally agrees that raising a child without any structure is just as damageable. The key here is to let children explore within a flexible, ever adapting set of clear boundaries.
Why flexible and ever adapting? Because as time passes, children grow and adapt, and the only way to help them develop their autonomy is to let them carefully explore the outskirt of the previous boundaries and help them become more responsible by experiencing responsibilities - and the right to fail and learn from failure.
Which can never happen when the boundaries are so strict and so strongly enforced that the only alternative children have is to rebel or submit.

Lastly, I'm not so sure about the testing the limitations. I think children will always test some limitations and not others, it's the same as society in general, (...) So, kids will test boundaries, some we can have some flexibility with some we cannot, and some, hopefully, we've taught are so serious, they know not to test them.

And here I agree with you again, IADad!
I ask, what is wrong with testing limitations? Isn't it natural and, I'd date to say, critical for their development, that they regularly do this?
If they would <I>not</I> do this, I'd be seriously worried about their cognitive development.

 

[Xero]

I 100% agree with every word Parentastic has said. Your argument against this, Shiroi Tora, is that this is only "one aspect" of parenting and not an all the time thing. I really don't think that's a valid argument, as that's not the way I would treat my children EVER.

I would never dump an entire basket of dirty laundry at my child's feet just because he forgot (yes, FORGOT, like CHILDREN tend to do!! - I highly doubt any child is deliberately thinking about disobeying their parents when their dirty clothes hit the floor instead of the basket, seriously come on) to put his dirty clothes in the basket. I read that to my husband and we both just looked at each other like "what kind of psycho does that to their kids". Sorry but kids are not dogs, they are not meant to be trained.

And about the format in which you typed your original post - that's all fine and dandy that you like to be "different" and "original" but the fact is that its obnoxious. Honestly this is like your second or third post that looks like that and I didn't read either of them because I opened it, it looked obnoxious, and I lost interest. I have better things to do with my day than copy and paste your rediculous format into a word document to read it like a normal paragraph. Its also irritating to read one incomplete sentence after another (or maybe its one big run on sentence, I can't tell). The only reason I finally read this one was because it was getting a lot of replies and I became curious.

Now I'm not trying to be a jerk but I find it extremely distasteful the way you went on about the complaints against your format in such a childish manner "Ooohhh nooooo its so hard to read, how will I manage?" seriously? I'd appreciate a little more respect to the other members of this forum when they are politely notifying you of something simple and harmless. You obviously have no idea of the concept "treat others as you wish to be treated" that is made clear in your depicted parenting style and the way you treat the other posters on this forum.

You say you know why the inmates you were subject to were the way they were, but honestly I don't believe you have any idea! How could you possibly know exactly how they were raised and what they have been through in their lives, what kind of parents they had or how they came about their attitude towards the world? Honestly, wow! First of all, my husband dropped out of high school and he went on to graduate college and get a high paying job. Second of all, my mother in law has three boys and raised them all the same and two of them are well rounded men and the third is a delinquent, aggressive, drug addicted low life. It came from nowhere! I am the oldest of six, and all of us turned out to be responsible, well rounded adults as well EXCEPT for the second youngest, who has been in and out of trouble his whole life, terrorized our family, and continues to get worse everyday no matter what anyone does for him. So honestly, I really don't think you can meet a bunch of inmates and suddenly know everything about them and the way they were raised. That makes no sense to me at all.

Children are people too, and they deserve the respect that we would hope to gain for ourselves. They do not need trained or broken, they need guidance and love, understanding and respect. I am a big fan of natural consequences.

In general, I don't have a lot more to say about your post because Parentastic said it all and I feel no need to really add to it other than what I already said. Really not trying to be as confrontational as this is probably coming off, but parenting views like the one in your post just make my skin crawl. Sorry. :/ If we're wrong about the way you're coming off, then I apologize but if that's the case then perhaps some re-wording would be a good idea.

 

[Shiroi Tora]

I 100% agree with every word Parentastic has said. Your argument against this, Shiroi Tora, is that this is only "one aspect" of parenting and not an all the time thing. I really don't think that's a valid argument, as that's not the way I would treat my children EVER.

I would never dump an entire basket of dirty laundry at my child's feet just because he forgot (yes, FORGOT, like CHILDREN tend to do!! - I highly doubt any child is deliberately thinking about disobeying their parents when their dirty clothes hit the floor instead of the basket, seriously come on) to put his dirty clothes in the basket. I read that to my husband and we both just looked at each other like "what kind of psycho does that to their kids". Sorry but kids are not dogs, they are not meant to be trained.

And about the format in which you typed your original post - that's all fine and dandy that you like to be "different" and "original" but the fact is that its obnoxious. Honestly this is like your second or third post that looks like that and I didn't read either of them because I opened it, it looked obnoxious, and I lost interest. I have better things to do with my day than copy and paste your rediculous format into a word document to read it like a normal paragraph. Its also irritating to read one incomplete sentence after another (or maybe its one big run on sentence, I can't tell). The only reason I finally read this one was because it was getting a lot of replies and I became curious.

Now I'm not trying to be a jerk but I find it extremely distasteful the way you went on about the complaints against your format in such a childish manner "Ooohhh nooooo its so hard to read, how will I manage?" seriously? I'd appreciate a little more respect to the other members of this forum when they are politely notifying you of something simple and harmless. You obviously have no idea of the concept "treat others as you wish to be treated" that is made clear in your depicted parenting style and the way you treat the other posters on this forum.

You say you know why the inmates you were subject to were the way they were, but honestly I don't believe you have any idea! How could you possibly know exactly how they were raised and what they have been through in their lives, what kind of parents they had or how they came about their attitude towards the world? Honestly, wow! First of all, my husband dropped out of high school and he went on to graduate college and get a high paying job. Second of all, my mother in law has three boys and raised them all the same and two of them are well rounded men and the third is a delinquent, aggressive, drug addicted low life. It came from nowhere! I am the oldest of six, and all of us turned out to be responsible, well rounded adults as well EXCEPT for the second youngest, who has been in and out of trouble his whole life, terrorized our family, and continues to get worse everyday no matter what anyone does for him. So honestly, I really don't think you can meet a bunch of inmates and suddenly know everything about them and the way they were raised. That makes no sense to me at all.

Children are people too, and they deserve the respect that we would hope to gain for ourselves. They do not need trained or broken, they need guidance and love, understanding and respect. I am a big fan of natural consequences.

In general, I don't have a lot more to say about your post because Parentastic said it all and I feel no need to really add to it other than what I already said. Really not trying to be as confrontational as this is probably coming off, but parenting views like the one in your post just make my skin crawl. Sorry. :/ If we're wrong about the way you're coming off, then I apologize but if that's the case then perhaps some re-wording would be a good idea.

Now so far as to my saying ooohhh noooo....it was to add levity. I frequently say things tongue in cheek...and so the emoticons. Were there no emoticon...then I could see how it could be confused. I want to let the lighter side of discussion come through also. It was meant to be fun. The emoticons are there for that reason. I in no way mean to be disrespectful...again...I thought the emoticon would have ensured that (if not...why are they there?).

So far as my knowing what many criminals did and the similarities I had noticed...it was a conglomeration of many I had seen. NOT ALL...there are exceptions. By your quoting an exception and trying to make it a rule is plainly invalid (are you trying to hold me to being correct 100% without fail?. I said many and most...those were my exact words).

Over 23 years of not only managing them...knowing their histories...but by talking with them I had a keener understanding than most. In my last job...we have Modules of inmates...generally up to 64 inmates out at a time. There is generally only one officer (unarmed) who is locked in the module with them. The Inmates and the Officer are occupying the same area...with no barriers. The Officer walks around...inter-mingling with them. The Inmates have their rooms (2 to a cell) but the doors are unlocked and everyone is in one big dorm area for many hours a day.

The Officer gets to know the individuals as many are there for many months at a time. The Officer has to talk and manage many in a relatively small area.

Actually...it is you who has no idea. I lived it for 23 years. I talked with them...I saw their histories. I saw how they interacted with others. I saw their patterns. I was giving you the benefit of my experience.

You have also misquoted and misrepresented what I had said, in both, letter and context. It is quite clear you have not read it..at least to any level of understanding.

Again...the hamper example. It was used to illustrate the concept of making it more expensive to not do something correctly the first time. It is not how you initially teach them. It was used for someone who consistently refuses to comply with that which is right. I used an extreme example for illustration of a concept.

This post made your skin crawl because you do not understand what was...in fact...written. Your's was an emotional reaction. You shut your mind down from the beginning. You improperly inferred which was neither expressed, nor implied. I said everything in a matter of fact manner. There was no hidden agenda...no attempted thinly veiled insults. It was simply to help others who may be starting out as parents.

Just for those who don't know what a 2E Child is (Twice Exceptional). That is my son...Alex. He is in the Autistic Spectrum and he is Profoundly Gifted. He is 10 years old. He has done exceptionally well in many things. However, it is how far he has come...the direction and rate he is going...and how much he enjoys life...that really makes me happy.

Just 7 years ago...when we had first gotten his official diagnosis...we were scared to death as parents. I was so worried as a father...for his future. The State of California gave us 35 -40 hrs of in home ABA therapy. We were first time parents and exceptionally worried. We learned a lot from the in home therapy. We saw how our son had grown. We learned a lot as parents. My wife has a blog in Japanese on a Japanese blog site. She talks of the condition and how we had successfully incorporated many of the ABA therapy's methods in our parenting.

I also have a blog for the same reason (For those interested...just type in 2Echild in google. I should be the first one. This was actually a cut and paste from one of my articles. It just seemed to apply at the time).

We were scared parents who had to research on our own. We wanted to give back to others as we had received such tremendous support from the State of California. We also realized that many places in the US and the world...do not have such treatment available.

Now...I have not been disrespectful. Xero...you were not merely disrespectful..you were venomous. However...I believe this is your home (you are the owner of this forum I believe). It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong...as it is your home...and I am now the unwanted guest...I must leave.

So far as answering others' replies...I am sorry. The owner's post supersedes all others.

One last note: An open forum is for the free exchange of ideas. Rational arguments help clarify. When emotion overrides cognition...the free flow of ideas are in jeopardy.

Please don't think I am as a child taking his toys home because he didn't get his way. I know there are plenty of others who can be equally annoying...and so you have lost nothing (notice the emoticon...it was there for levity).

It is when intentions are divined by the readers (so often incorrectly) that the thrust of the post or reply is lost...issues occluded...emotions brought to the forefront and shutting down reasonable discussion.

 

[parentastic]

It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong...as it is your home...and I am now the unwanted guest...I must leave.
So far as answering others' replies...I am sorry. The owner's post supersedes all others.

That's it? Really?

Right. Congratulation on fleeing, <I>yet again</I>, so you don't have to truly defend your opinions.

And you really think we believe your lame excuse to escape from being accountable for your opinions and your posts? :yikes:

Wow. Just wow.

 

[alter ego]

I 100% agree with every word Parentastic has said. Your argument against this, Shiroi Tora, is that this is only "one aspect" of parenting and not an all the time thing. I really don't think that's a valid argument, as that's not the way I would treat my children EVER.

I would never dump an entire basket of dirty laundry at my child's feet just because he forgot (yes, FORGOT, like CHILDREN tend to do!! - I highly doubt any child is deliberately thinking about disobeying their parents when their dirty clothes hit the floor instead of the basket, seriously come on) to put his dirty clothes in the basket. I read that to my husband and we both just looked at each other like "what kind of psycho does that to their kids". Sorry but kids are not dogs, they are not meant to be trained.

Now I'm not trying to be a jerk but I find it extremely distasteful the way you went on about the complaints against your format in such a childish manner "Ooohhh nooooo its so hard to read, how will I manage?" seriously? I'd appreciate a little more respect to the other members of this forum when they are politely notifying you of something simple and harmless. You obviously have no idea of the concept "treat others as you wish to be treated" that is made clear in your depicted parenting style and the way you treat the other posters on this forum.

Children are people too, and they deserve the respect that we would hope to gain for ourselves. They do not need trained or broken, they need guidance and love, understanding and respect. I am a big fan of natural consequences.

In general, I don't have a lot more to say about your post because Parentastic said it all and I feel no need to really add to it other than what I already said. Really not trying to be as confrontational as this is probably coming off, but parenting views like the one in your post just make my skin crawl.

couldnt agree more!

 

[singledad]

In Shiroi's defence - most of you seemed to have missed the last bit of his post:

<LEFT>

Should he be right... (what I do) I apologize to him, correct all future action
and make it up with interest.

This teaches him the Concept Of Correctness regardless of status
(Critical Reasoning)...
and of the Concept Of Forgiveness​

</LEFT>

(Reformatted for easier reading, but no words changed)

However, I was also rather disappointed when I received feedback only of the fact that I posted, but none on the contents of my post.

I believe the OP has a point, in that many kids grow up with no boundaries, and subsequently they never learn to live responsibly as part of the larger society. I think that a debate on how to prevent our children from becoming one of these, could be a debate that could only benefit everyone involved.

I am sad that the debate seemed to have veered towards a discussion of posting format - I mentioned it to the OP merely as an attempt at explaining to him why he wasn't getting the reaction he expected. It really isn't that important.

 

[singledad]

<I>Your post struck me very deeply, and scared me quite a bit, in two ways -
1. The accuracy with which you described a younger, infinitely more screwed up, but thankfully long dead version of myself.
2. The link between his behaviour and the quest for instant gratification.</I>

Singledad, one of the reason I reacted so strongly to the OP's post in this thread is because this kind of rethorics has a powerful attraction on many parents, yet it may also have very strong negative consequences on children on the long run... :sad: so it makes my blood boil quite fast.
When I read your initial paragraph, I felt that way.

But I find myself answering no - my biggest need wasn't discipline, it was love, guidance, understanding. (...)
The one thing I know for sure, is that I don't want her to learn these things the way I learnt them - the hard way.
...and I felt so relieved when I read this!

But see - he did describe what I used to be with pinpoint accuracy. The constant need for instant gratification, the complete lack of respect for any and all authority, attempting to plough my way through life with force... I did drop out of school, and out of life, as he put it. I did act like a toddler - reacting to any attempt to control me with stubbornness and aggression.

And you know, I honestly think that I would probably have benefited from both love and discipline. I had no concept of right and wrong, and no respect either for others or for myself. I did whatever I wanted, when I wanted, how I wanted, with no regard for others or for myself. Discipline could have taught me about right and wrong, but not to respect myself. Love could have fostered self-respect in me, but would it have taught me about right and wrong?

What I learnt from my own experience, is exactly how much of what makes us able to function in society, is learnt. And so, my next question, (and this is part of what I have been trying to figure out over the last few weeks) is how to make sure that my daughter learns these things from me, at the appropriate age.

One thing I firmly believe is that the existence of <U>clear, unequivocal boundaries</U>, would have made a massive difference in my life. As a child, I lived in constant fear, because I never knew when something that I've done a 100 times before would suddenly earn me harsh punishment. And being severely punished for something, did not mean that I would not a week later be punished for NOT doing it. In the end, I basically gave up and did whatever I wanted, reasoning that I'll get punished for SOMETHING anyway, so why bother trying to escape it? From that I learnt that a child needs to know what he is allowed to do, and what not, and that a child should NEVER be punished for something he didn't know was wrong. To me, boundaries mark a space inside which exploration is safe, and my daughter certainly seems to thrive on knowing what is expected of her. Even as an adult, I like to know what my employer will allow or not, because it gives me the freedom think outside the box and explore different solutions without the fear of damaging the working relationship with my manager and/or colleagues.

Perhaps this is part of what the OP was trying to convey? The need for clear boundaries, that, while they can (and should) adapt over time as the child grows up, does not change for day at the whim or according to the mood of the parent, or even due to pressure from the child?

If you'd like to try something different, I think I could help you with that, using what I teach in my workshop, if you'd be willing to give it a try.

I am always open to suggestions, and willing to try new things.

I have to warn you that I am always wary of pre-defined, one-size-fits-all methods, because I believe that since children are human beings, and human beings are all unique, what works for one may not necessarily work for everyone else. However, I like learning as much as possible about different methods, and taking from various methods that which I believe would work for me, in a particular circumstance. That is why I have stayed on this board for almost two years now - because I keep on learning - about parenting and about life.