Verbal abuse...

[singledad]

So, bssage raised an interesting question in my thread about boundaries and consequences, and I decided to take his suggestion to turn it into a separate conversation. I'm putting it in general, because I'm not sure if it fits under debate. Perhaps it can be moved at some point.

I think one of the underlying components making it a difficult topic to talk about. Is that definitions are unclear and vary widely from person to person. When does a raised voice become a yell? When does an attempt to be heard become something hurtful? My go to (the Wiki) even is vague with its definition. SD I think you will find the 5th paragraph interesting.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_abuse

Here is my answer:

IMO the boundaries of verbal abuse, just like any other form of abuse, is inherently vague and fluid. Some people are simply more sensitive than others. It is made even more difficult by the fact that verbal abuse is a progressive thing.

Shouting at or putting your child down once, twice, or even a dozen times in their life, will IMO not make much of a difference. She will possibly just remember it as a single, hurtful event. Or not at all, depending on how sensitive she is. The problem comes in when it happens regularly.

IMO verbal abuse is rarely intense or explosive enough for a single event to leave the kind of impression that, say, a severe beating will. Words can be cruel enough for a single message to leave a child traumatised, but I think something like that takes a level of malice that is beyond a simple parenting mistake. It simply isn't something a loving parent will do accidentally.

However, something as subtle as a sign whenever a child approaches you, talking to a child with an irritated tone of voice, or saying to a child "don't be stupid", if it happens repeatedly over time, progressively damages the child's self-image. If it happens once, the response can be anything from "oops, daddy's in a bad mood", to "daddy must be mad at me - what did I do wrong?" but if it happens continuously, it becomes "daddy never wants to talk to me. There must be something wrong with me". From there, it is a short step to "I don't deserve any better".

I think the big thing that we as parents need to do, is to be aware of how we interact, not only with our children, but also with other adults around our children. IMO verbal abuse is the one form of abuse that can happen unintentionally, due to nothing more than a lack of awareness from the parent. It is so easy to fall into the trap of raising our voices in anger, of showing frustration/irritation, or of being too critical, in an attempt to teach. We are all human, after all.

I have more to say on this topic, but I have spend some time actually earning my salary first

 

[Mom2all]

I can not tell you how often I say this phrase....

"It's not what you say, but how you say it."

" What were you thinking there? You know better than that." or " Your a freaking idiot."
They both mean something stupid just happened... but one makes scars.

If I wouldn't say it to my Grandma, I wouldn't say it to my kids.

That being said, it amazes me that I hear some parents say things to their children that they'd never say to an adult they didn't even like. If you'd be embarrassed to let someone else hear you say it, your probably crossing the line.

My Dad raised his voice at me twice. I remember it. I deserved it but I remember it. My Grandfather raised his once. I deserved it. I remember it. My Mom yelled at me once. I really deserved that one. None of those times were the words hurtful or demeaning just loud enough to let me know I was in big trouble. You can't take words back. I don't feel I was verbally abused.. but I was never talked to like a dog. Choose your words carefully.

 

[mom2many]

"It's not what you say, but how you say it."

I think this is VERY true. My family is very sarcastic and sometimes quite rude to one another...BUT it's not done with any maliciousness and a lot of times we try to one up the other with an insult. Anyone who really knows this would sit on the sidelines and laugh, people who don't would probably think we are a pack of crazed animals; we mind our manners in public .

I know that on the odd chance something does come flying out that was not really supposed to I will apologize for it. I have never had a problem admitting when I am wrong and I think it let's my children see me as not just 'super mom', but human with all the faults that come along with that.

Verbal abuse IMO is almost everyday, all the time and at a point where you can never please the other person. Where nothing you ever say or do is 'right' and you are reminded of this all the time. No yelling has to be involved.

My SD was physically abusive towards my mom, almost killed her a few times, but never towards (my sister was an infant) and always very loving towards me...minus some actions that would say otherwise. Never once did he say a bad word to me or act in any violent way towards me.The damage of watching him beat my mom though is still great and the things he would say to her..oye.

Even though it was never aimed at me, the words still hurt.

 

[Mom2all]

Oh we're sarcastic too.. just not with maliciousness. If its said in anger, it's totally different.

I'm sorry about your Mom's life. My Mom was killed by hers and I think that had a lot to do with how important it is to me that we use our words wisely. His words did more damage to her than his fists before the day he killed her. I hated that.

 

[singledad]

"It's not what you say, but how you say it."

" What were you thinking there? You know better than that." or " Your a freaking idiot."
They both mean something stupid just happened... but one makes scars.

Well said.

Verbal abuse IMO is almost everyday, all the time and at a point where you can never please the other person. Where nothing you ever say or do is 'right' and you are reminded of this all the time. No yelling has to be involved.

Yes, yelling is not necessary, but I think we should be careful when saying that verbal abuse is always a daily thing. Even though telling someone once "you're an idiot" really won't ruin that person's life, we have to think where we draw that line. Our words and attitudes can be so subtle that we, ourselves, only notice that we went too far when the damage is already done.

My SD was physically abusive towards my mom, almost killed her a few times, but never towards (my sister was an infant) and always very loving towards me...minus some actions that would say otherwise. Never once did he say a bad word to me or act in any violent way towards me.The damage of watching him beat my mom though is still great and the things he would say to her..oye.

I'm sorry mom2many... It's so sad how many members on this site have had screwed up childhoods.

I think the problem with domestic violence is that often, the abuser uses verbal/emotional abuse to break down his victim until she no longer believes that she deserves, and can have a better life. That is certainly what happened with my foster-father. He was too smart to ever leave marks (except on me, once, but that's a different story) but oh boy... the things he said, and did... She was terrified of him. And yet, she cried when he was dead. To look at her then, one would have been forgiven for thinking she had lost a loving, supportive partner. Not someone who had threatened her life multiple times...

But that is extreme, and easy to ID as abuse.

What scares me about verbal abuse is how hard it sometimes is to recognize. I'm thinking about my in-laws now. My MIL is not evil, per-se. When you see her, she comes across as a very refined, sophisticated woman, She is always calm and soft-spoken. But then you're with her for more than 5 minutes... She's the kind who would criticize everything you do, and in the most aggressive and judgmental way possible. When you confront her, she'll look shocked and say that she was just trying to give advice... She is very different from my drunken, blustering father, stumbling around the house, hurling insults and objects at anyone who dares to approach him, or my foster-father, with his insidious way of poking your most vulnerable spots when you least expect it, but to me, that is also verbal abuse. I've seen all too clearly the effects it had on at least one of her daughters.

 

[Mom2all]

That's what I've been writing about on my Mom's page. His words controlled her more than his fists.

Someone just hitting you once... you get mad, hurt, walk away, and heal from it.

It's the words that draw you back. Your worthless, no one cares, your not safe cause I'll find you, your weak, you don't deserve better...

They last so much longer.

 

[bssage]

It occurs to me (and I mentioned it in the other thread) That we tunnel into specific forms of abuse. More specifically the most common or dramatic abuses. When the reality is if a tool is taken away from an abuser, will they not simply find another tool? And if that is the case are they unaware that they have crossed the line from building up to tearing down?

My Crazy B of a grandma tore down my mother all her life. It did not involve yelling or spanking. Just talking and tearing down. It was just as sad to watch as other forms of abuse.

The catch is there would really be no way to change her. Because we are not her. And if she does not want to change. It just wont happen.

So what you have to do is change the perception of the victim to see the abuser as the victim of themselves.

In most cases I am personally familiar with. The abuser ultimately destroys their own lives and die alone or without love.

 

[singledad]

It occurs to me (and I mentioned it in the other thread) That we tunnel into specific forms of abuse. More specifically the most common or dramatic abuses. When the reality is if a tool is taken away from an abuser, will they not simply find another tool?

Yes - absolutely. This is the majour issue I have with the public obsession with spanking - physical is abuse is possibly one of the most visible and dramatic forms of abuse, but IMO it is also one of the least damaging forms - not saying it doesn't matter - it does, in a very big way, and I will never ever say oh, they just beat him, that's ok - but other, less visible forms of abuse can leave much, much deeper scars.

I guess the main reason why I took you recommendation and started this thread, is because I feel that there can never be too much information out there about verbal/emotional abuse.

And if that is the case are they unaware that they have crossed the line from building up to tearing down?

My Crazy B of a grandma tore down my mother all her life. It did not involve yelling or spanking. Just talking and tearing down. It was just as sad to watch as other forms of abuse.

The catch is there would really be no way to change her. Because we are not her. And if she does not want to change. It just wont happen.

Agreed. Perhaps I have naive here, but I was hoping that perhaps one person will read this, and examine the way he/she interacts with his/her children, and think wow, maybe the way I talk to them is not OK. Perhaps its too much to ask, but if we keep quite, the chances of success are nil, as opposed to small. I'd take small of nil, thank you.

I'm just sad to see that the only people who are participating here, are those who have seen verbal abuse, and the devastation it caused. I can only hope that other read, but just don't post.

So what you have to do is change the perception of the victim to see the abuser as the victim of themselves.

In most cases I am personally familiar with. The abuser ultimately destroys their own lives and die alone or without love.

Interesting point.

My father died alone, of liver failure caused by many years of alcoholism.
My foster father died young, violently.

On the other hand - MIL is still alive and well, and terrorizing her surviving children...

 

[Mom2all]

My father died alone, of liver failure caused by many years of alcoholism.
My foster father died young, violently.

While the man who killed my Mom died in his bed of liver failure too.. with his son there. The same son who took his fathers wallet and went shopping with his credit card the night he died.

I can not think of 3 men who deserved it more.