Discipline and Logical Consequences...

[FCMommy]

<t>I’m really interested in the ways that parents determine and enforce logical, appropriate consequences for extreme behavior. My husband and I really like the Love and Logic approach -- we have firm rules and boundaries and our daughter (5) knows the consequences for stepping outside of them. Most of the time. When she tantrums sometimes, she just completely loses control. <br/>
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Yesterday evening we were coming home from a fun event she didn’t want to leave (cue tantrum) and she unbuckled her car seat and opened the car door! In traffic! I pulled over immediately and went around to have a talk/buckle her back in and she just absolutely attacked my face, leaving me bleeding in half a dozen spots. I was so angry that I couldn’t think straight so I just closed the car door to let her scream it out, and called my husband. He came in the other car to take over and I went home. <br/>
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The logical consequence seems to be that if she can’t be safe in the car, she can’t ride in the car. (Right? Other ideas appreciated!) So this morning we walked to school together, about 2.5 miles along a noisy road. We talked about how this is the choice she made last night through her actions. Well, I talked about it at least. <br/>
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We really need to nip this in the bud so I would appreciate any insight. What are some logical consequence ideas for hurting someone, and for putting herself in danger? We don't want to flip out and give her a big reaction, but we can't minimize it. Her behavior is really dangerous. <br/>
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Thanks!</t>

 

[mom2many]

I love aspects of Love and Logic and in many cases try to use aspects of it. In many cases a natural consequence is the best course of action.

However, harming another and putting someone in danger is where my natural consequence idea's go right out the door. At 5 she has currency, every kid does and for every kid that is different. What does she like? What does she enjoy? Those things would be removed for 5 days (when little I like to use how old they are for how long it will be removed) Once they hit the teen years, each infraction get's more and more time added to it.

What she did is extreme. She puts herself in danger, she put you in danger and she put others on the road in danger (albeit indirectly).

 

[cybele]

Slightly off topic, but do you not have a child lock on your car doors? I don't know about any of the newer cars as mine is quite old, but on mine when you open the back doors there is a little black switch in the side and if you turn it on, the door cannot be opened from the inside.

 

[bssage]

M2M and cybele

are both correct and I agree.

But I think consequences typically do not address root causes. In short you probably need the consequence to stop or modify the behavior quickly and protect everyone.

But it seems in your post that some type of meltdown or disturbance was anticipated. Maybe not to the degree it was expressed. But there was a clue prior to the event. My advice is to compare note's with your husband and caregivers ect to try and identify cue's as they appear. And that should be the focus of your intervention. That is the time for active listening or even if a issue is likely due to the nature of the activity "Story Telling" is very helpful.

You of course have to take some action like you did. Or as M2M suggested. But that is really not an action to prevent. It is a reaction to prevent.

Its really hard to make more specific suggestions without some more background. What were things like for her prior to the adoption? How advanced is her comprehension? Where you feel your connection to her is at this point.

I was trying to find a good example of a learning story. But it goes something like this. You can draw picture or use clip art from the web.

Lets say your taking her to the dentist tomorrow.

The story would start with the image of her getting up the brushing her teeth, getting dressed ect ect ect. The story evolves to sitting in the dentist chair, her doing her thing, leaving the office, then riding in the car home.

These stories are particular useful for anything outside of the normal routine. It lets kids know exactly what to expect. In the case of your specific story you would want to include a clock with the time the event ends and the ride home.

Its a surprisingly powerful tool. And especially good for diverting anticipated issues.

Active listening is also a great tool. I would depend on your little girls communication skills though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_listening

Just my 2 cents

 

[FCMommy]

Thanks, I love the idea of removing a beloved activity/toy/whatever for the number of days that they are years old. We don't use that tool as much as we should, and when we do it tends to be "forrreeevvvveeerrrrr!"

 

[FCMommy]

Thanks, bssage. There was a lot of anger and violence in her first home, and although she doesn't seem to remember anything before she came to us, but of course we always wonder at times like this whether she's tapping into a deeper source of pain and anger than just normal childhood frustration.

We do track tantrums so we can get a better handle on patterns and try to get out ahead of them, but for the meantime, do you have any suggestions on how to drive home the fact that it's never ok to hurt people, even when she feels angry?

 

[singledad]

I'm not sure if I have much useful advice about how to teach this particular lesson right now, but I can tell you that even though children may not consciously remember what happened to them before the age of 2, it does affect them. She was exposed to violence through a very important part of her early development. So yes, she is tapping into a deeper source of pain and anger, probably without even being consciously aware of it.

The only piece of advice I can come up with is to try to actively teach her how to handle anger, when she is not angry. Not by using punishment, but rather by modelling it, perhaps story telling as bssage suggested, perhaps even role-playing. The idea is to teach that it's ok to be angry, but there are certain ways of showing/venting anger that are ok, and certain ways that are not at all ok. And hurting people fall in the second category. She will need to know what is an ok way to show it, however, since it is unfair to expect her not to get angry or to just bottle it up inside.

I would also think that responding with anger and anything that might look like "retribution" in the eyes of a 5-year old, might actually re-enforce that when one is angry, it is ok to let the person who made you angry suffer... Natural consequences feels to me like the way to go.

Question - does she know what would happen if she were to fall out of a movie car? "Danger" is a very abstract concept for a 5 year old. You might need to get a bit more graphic (although not too graphic - she's only 5, after all!)

 

[TabascoNatalie]

1) you mentioned she came from violent home. Probably she was abused or has witnessed abuse, even if she seems not to remember it. Maybe you should try and find some professional help? This situation seems beyond "traditional" discipline problems.

2) like Singledad said, at 5 years of age danger is too abstract. Just i'd say don't be afraid to be especially graphic. Maybe a cultural difference here, but when i was a child, there were boards in the streets with photographs of people killed or injured in traffic accidents. Gruesome, maybe unethical, but it was clear message that traffic is not a joke.

3) car safety. Like cybele said, doors should be child-proof. Discipline or not, but the one responsible for safety in a vehicle is an adult.

 

[FCMommy]

Thanks, both of you. We know that there was abuse in the home but that she was sheltered from the worst of it. We have an open adoption and she sees the non-abusive members of her first family several times a year. We've sought out a professional therapist a couple of times, but they seem to be geared toward a slightly different caliber of parent (if I can say that without seeming snobby). What I mean is that they told us her issues are normal and that we should tell her we still love her even when her behavior is inappropriate. Not exactly earth-shattering.

I do think it's a good point that the risks of her action couldn't have been as visceral for her as they are for us, and maybe an experiment with a cantaloup is in order. I realize as I write this that I'm almost scared that she wouldn't be deterred. Her older sister was a foster child in our home for a while and had several suicide attempts that my husband and I (and, in our defense, the social workers) wrongly interpreted as cries for help before finally realizing that she genuinely wanted to die.

Ok, as I'm writing this I realize that there's part of me that's completely in denial about how deep this could run for her and what exactly might be coming out in those times of anger (or could come out later) and spending a few hours and a few hundred dollars a month on family therapy is really a fairly cheap price to pay to stave off bigger problems down the road.

 

[bssage]

Thanks for the background

I want to add to what SD was talking about. Even at a very early age children will mirror what their caregivers do. It may be just an expression or a preference for a type of food. But is is something they do.

The lack of control may very well be a mirrored behavior. Or some component of it.

So in addition to the advice that has already been given. I would pay attention to the modeling that you and your husband are doing. And not just pay attention to it. Because of this specific situation. I think when modleing I would highlight the areas of how you both react for further clarity.

For example if dad gets mad or disagrees with something and walks out of the room. Then comes back to discuss the issue. You could point out what happened and how it was handled well.

This makes sense in my head. Not sure if it does in the post.

What I am trying (lamely) to say. Pay attention to your modeling. And draw attention to the aspects of that you want to make a point of.

 

[singledad]

Thanks, both of you. We know that there was abuse in the home but that she was sheltered from the worst of it.

I just had to comment on this - I'm really not sure how much of a difference this makes. For a little kid, witnessing abuse is not much different from being abused themselves. And even if she didn't witness it, the atmosphere in the home could not have been one of love and safety. And if the home isn't safe, no-one in that home is safe, not even her.

It would help that she was sheltered from the worst, but the fact remains that she was exposed to violence.

I do think it's a good point that the risks of her action couldn't have been as visceral for her as they are for us, and maybe an experiment with a cantaloup is in order. I realize as I write this that I'm almost scared that she wouldn't be deterred. Her older sister was a foster child in our home for a while and had several suicide attempts that my husband and I (and, in our defense, the social workers) wrongly interpreted as cries for help before finally realizing that she genuinely wanted to die.

That is so sad... do you think it might actually have been a suicide attempt, rather than just a tantrum from a child who doesn't understand the danger? If so, then I would urge you to get professional help ASAP! Today, if possible!

I have to agree that, given her past and the fact that right now there really is no way of knowing exactly how big an impact it had on her, therapy sounds like a good idea. Kids have a way of appearing as if nothing is wrong even when something is seriously wrong inside. The fact that she doesn't have serious behavioral problems now is great, but I wouldn't count on that lasting through her teenage years. Trauma doesn't just go away - it may slumber or get buried in a child's subconscious, but it is always there and it could very well be that early trauma that is rearing its head when her tantrums get totally out of control...

 

[FCMommy]

Thanks, that's a good idea.