Discipline!...
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seeeker said:
so, by always you mean except when dealing with other adults, then feel free to jump to conclusions and bash, right?
Your opinions are valid and welcome, but they are just that, opinions. Please show a little respect for your fellow parent members.
WOW. What a <I>beautiful</I> sentiment, Mom2all...your dad must have been very wise.Mom2all said:
I understand seeeker's sentiment (and, to a certain extent, agree with it) that there seems to be a paucity of long-term research to prove that "time-outs" are more successful over spanking over other forms of discipline. When I was naughty as a child, my mother firmly but lovingly talked to me with reason, and if that failed and I was out of line, I got a smack in the face. This was, of course, the way back in the 70s, and my peers now say things like, "If <I>I'd</I> tried that when <I>I</I> was a kid, my mother/father would have smacked me upside the head"...and they say it <I>not</I> as a criticism, but as a <I>testiment</I> to the tough, but loving guidance they received as children that shaped them into the responsible adults they are today.
Of course, back then, smacking a child was accepted communally. It no longer is. Now "time-outs" are the fashionable mode of discipline. Back in the 70s, you were not aberrant to use smacking/spanking to discipline a child...now smacking/spanking <I>is</I> portrayed as the aberration...and I think that it's more the <I>communal portrayal</I> of a form of discipline that makes it inappropriate rather than the actual form itself.
In other words, the Emperor has no clothes. I'm not convinced that spanking a child will screw him/her up emotionally/psychologically/physically. We didn't have Columbine shootings in the days of spanking. On the other hand, I'm not trying to attribute the decline of society to "time-outs." I'm saying, rather, that if the <I>community</I> -- and that word is broader in this globalized, information-age society than it was in the neighborhood-based society of my youth -- adopts the position that spanking is wrong, then the parent who spanks becomes the <I>aberrant</I>, and I think <I>that</I> takes more of a toll on a child's psyche than the spanking itself. The child, as s/he grows into a critically thinking person, concludes that s/he is the "victim" of aberrant parenting, and this causes the young person emotional and psychological distress.
I don't spank, but the <I>reason</I> I don't spank is because it's become socially unacceptable. It <I>wasn't</I> socially unacceptable in my youth, so I don't feel like I was the victim of improper parenting. I know my parents raised me in the manner of responsible, loving parents of the time. And it's "of the time" that's important.
If spanking isn't acceptable anymore, then we risk sending the message to our children -- as they reach the age of critical thinking -- that we paid no mind to what the scientific and/or spiritual and/or social community of the time had determined, in its/their collective wisdom, was the appropriate way to handle things. We clove to the way <I>we</I> wanted to handle things, and the rest of the know-it-alls be damned. I think that's a troubling message to teach.
I'm not saying we should just blindly follow whatever trends come along, but the trend in the pediatric/parenting community <I>does</I> embrace time-outs over spanking, so it's likely <I>not</I> going to turn your kid into a Columbine gunman if you choose to abandon corporal punishment.
That said, to the extent I use time outs, I don't <I>call</I> them "time outs." Partially, because the trendiness of the term rubs me the wrong way...just like I <I>refuse</I> to use that ridiculous pseudo-Franco-Italian-Esperanto nomenclature they use at Starbucks to refer to 16 and 20 ounce coffee sizes. But <I>more</I> importantly, I don't call it a "time out" because <I>it's not a game</I>. Punishment is serious business, and I call it "punishment." I do what Xero does...I tell my children, "Don't pull the kitty's tail, please, sweetheart. That hurts the kitty." Then, the second time, I say more sternly, "Robert/Sofia, do <I>not</I> pull the tail on the cat." Then, the third time, I raise my voice to get their attention and repeat it <I>again</I> in my daddy-means-business voice. The <I>fourth</I> time, if there is one, I tell them it's time for them to be "punished" for disobeying, and I put them in what is commonly referred to (but not by me) as a "time out."
It works, and after having read this thread, I'm going to borrow from some of the suggestions posted here, and use that opportunity to explain again why the behavior is unacceptable and to try to get the child to repeat it.
I also think, after reading Mom2all's post, that I will also try to avoid raising my voice on the third "do not pull the cat's tail," and, instead, try bending my knees to get down to the child's eye level to get his/her attention. Since my goal is to get the child's attention, Mom2all's suggestion seems to be the better way to attain that goal than raising my voice. Also, it's less stress for <I>me</I>.
I have never seen them do any harm, nor have I ever read any studies at all suggesting that they are, so its pretty disrespectful of you to ask me if I can PROVE time out never hurt anyone. Are YOU a child psychologist? Otherwise you shouldn't be telling me about the workings of a child's mind.seeeker said:
Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and if you think that time out is not something you would like to use when disciplining your children, then that's perfectly fine, but let me tell you that YOU would be in the much, much smaller slice of the pie chart. If we took a poll of the good people on this parenting forum that do use time out and find it harmless, the results would be quite clear I can guarantee it. I don't know how long time out has been around, but I can tell you that my mother used time out on me when I was a toddler and that was 20 years ago. I can remember it and so can she. Also, my grandparents have a cute old fashioned painting of a little girl with her nose in a corner (mind you, I don't use corners, I use a chair, and my child faces me the entire time he is in time out and I pay attention to him the entire time, so I don't see where "ignoring" comes into play whatsoever, and therefor that argument of yours is rather irrelevent at least to me). That picture must depict how old time out really is. She says she used it on her children. Her oldest is about to be 60. So really, you're theory on time out being a new and strange idea is pretty random and completely untrue.
This I copy-pasted:
A time-out involves temporarily separating a child from an environment where inappropriate behavior has occurred, and is intended to give an over-excited child time to calm down. It is an educational and child discipline.
The concept of time-out was invented, named, and used by Arthur Staats in his extended work with his daughter (and later son), and was part of a long-term program of behavioral analysis beginning in <U>1958</U> that treated various aspects of child development.
--- Since chid psychologists and behavioralists know best... right?
All of this information and more can be found here:
Child time-out - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You might like to know your facts before speaking so righteously. But that's just MY opinion.
As for my OPINION, I believe that time out gives any child the oportunity to take a moment to calm down, and recognize that a certain situation was not going the way it should. Whatever the child is thinking about, they are quiet and thoughtful for a couple of minutes in plain sight but having to sit still in one spot. When the time is up, the parent approaches the child and goes back over why they are sitting there in the first place: "You hit your sister, and that's not very nice. Now lets get up and try to be nice to sister from now on." Period, the end, over with. I call that - harmless. Thoughtful. Discipline. There is no ignoring involved. Time out is not about being ignored or out of sight. Time out is about taking a moment to calm down and think. I believe you are mixed up about that, and now I have cleared it up.
seeeker: You don't have to agree with the way other people parent, and you have a right to do things the way you want to do them and parent the way you would like to parent. You also have the right to express your own opinion, but here on this forum we do not allow other members to "bash" on the other versions of parenting that are spoken about here that might not be exactly the same as your own. Please do not put down the opinion or parenting styles of others, and also please do not flaunt false information or any (claimed as fact) information without citation for that matter.
And please familiarize yourself with the forum rules and guidelines before continuing to post:
http://www.parentingforums.org/f17/rules-guidelines-read-before-posting-7179.html[/URL]
Thank you.
one question:
what does "go stick your nose in the corner." mean then if it don't time-out??? think most all of us are old enough to have heard that phrase a time or two by someone.
what does "go stick your nose in the corner." mean then if it don't time-out??? think most all of us are old enough to have heard that phrase a time or two by someone.
I didn't say it wasn't time out at all, just not the way I do it. I know some people that use corners. Either way, it should only be for a short period and it should be followed with a lesson on what happened and that we will try not to have it happen again. Its not just being ignored.
like for me, with DS1, didn't need to use a corner, just "sit over there and think about what you've done" worked. With DS2 it made no impact. I think the point of timeout is you take away thier ability to do what they want for a time. so DS2 has to stick his nose in the corner to understand "oh, this is an important thing."
like i said, time-outs have been around for a loooong time. just so happens someone was smart enough to think up a name and put instructions on paper.
now thanks to someone's research we know who came up with the name.:tongue:
most of the time we don't do time-outs in corners either.
now thanks to someone's research we know who came up with the name.:tongue:
most of the time we don't do time-outs in corners either.
I had time outs. My Dad didn't use that term.. I believe it was something like... "get your butt on that couch and be quiet until I call you"... but it was a time out. Punishment is not supposed to obe fun, or it would be called play time. (Which back in my day was called "find something to do or I'll find you something to do" ) Children are just little people waiting to grow up.. they have to learn respect, consequences for actions, and yes... disappointment. I'm not sure talking and begging them to do the rite thing is the way to teach them that. They must learn it when they are young or life when they get older will be unbearable for the parent and simply unfair to that child.
If you are still uncomfortable with timeouts, another route to go is the theory that every behavior has a consequence whether it be good or bad. The trick is the match the consequence with the behavior. For example, if my daughter is grumpy and gives me a hard time in the morning getting ready for school... she loses playtime after school and has to go to bed earlier than usual....why, because her behavior is telling me that she is not getting enough sleep.
If she is tardy to class (amazing but yes they do that in kindergarten now)... then she does not have the priveledge of eating breakfast at school, she has to eat at home... etc.
You may want to check out the book Parenting with Love and Logic - it explains the whole picture much better than I can in a few words on a forum post.
We have used time outs with our daughter before, but after reading this thread I've realized that at this point we use the behavior/consequence method pretty much exclusively.
If she is tardy to class (amazing but yes they do that in kindergarten now)... then she does not have the priveledge of eating breakfast at school, she has to eat at home... etc.
You may want to check out the book Parenting with Love and Logic - it explains the whole picture much better than I can in a few words on a forum post.
We have used time outs with our daughter before, but after reading this thread I've realized that at this point we use the behavior/consequence method pretty much exclusively.
I guess now that you mention it, that's what my wife and I do too. In fact, I don't remember the last time we actually made any of the children sit as a punishment. Recently, we've pretty much exclusively been taking away priviliges as punishment.
I too refuse to use timeout or any method that controls the child. I found that trying to stop the child from behaving a certain way is the wrong goal.
It is like putting tape on a leaking faucet or breaking the red light that says that your car is low on oil.
It is best to stop the cause of why she is driven to behave this way. She has no control over the emotions that drive her behavior. She has a valid reason that she is not aware of, to do what she does. If I find the reason, I can take care of it and the problem is over with. I am then never my child's police. I stay connected and loving. This works so well. I am amazed.
Anyway, the child who sits at timeout never thinks to herself, "Gee, mom is right, I understand how wrong I was..." No way. Instead she is hurt. She thinks, "Mommy doesn't love me. I am no good. I am angry. I hate Mommy...etc." She may stop the behavior but for the wrong reason and so the emotional need is still there and another behavior will spring up (she has no control over it) to care for this emotional reason.
For example, you can look at what your daughter gets out of "getting you."
It may be a game and she needs more play time with you. Or it could make her feel powerful that she can cause a reaction. So it is possible that she is feeling helpless or controlled too often. She may needs opportunities to be in charge, to have an impact. Also, I learned to play this game of power that is very healing and the child's need gets healed.
So the bottom line is, stopping the behavior is, to my opinion, the wrong goal. Instead, try to understand why she needs to do these things and find a way to meed the deeper unexpressed emotional pain and need. This way she won't need to behave in this manner.
It is like putting tape on a leaking faucet or breaking the red light that says that your car is low on oil.
It is best to stop the cause of why she is driven to behave this way. She has no control over the emotions that drive her behavior. She has a valid reason that she is not aware of, to do what she does. If I find the reason, I can take care of it and the problem is over with. I am then never my child's police. I stay connected and loving. This works so well. I am amazed.
Anyway, the child who sits at timeout never thinks to herself, "Gee, mom is right, I understand how wrong I was..." No way. Instead she is hurt. She thinks, "Mommy doesn't love me. I am no good. I am angry. I hate Mommy...etc." She may stop the behavior but for the wrong reason and so the emotional need is still there and another behavior will spring up (she has no control over it) to care for this emotional reason.
For example, you can look at what your daughter gets out of "getting you."
It may be a game and she needs more play time with you. Or it could make her feel powerful that she can cause a reaction. So it is possible that she is feeling helpless or controlled too often. She may needs opportunities to be in charge, to have an impact. Also, I learned to play this game of power that is very healing and the child's need gets healed.
So the bottom line is, stopping the behavior is, to my opinion, the wrong goal. Instead, try to understand why she needs to do these things and find a way to meed the deeper unexpressed emotional pain and need. This way she won't need to behave in this manner.