Intimacylessness...

evilbrent

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Sep 4, 2007
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:)

Ok. Some progress.

On the weekend:
<LIST>

  • <LI>
  • we had father's day on Sunday. She didn't get me a present or a card because she's still sore about Mother's Day earlier in the year (we disagree about whether I got her anything.) but she did give me a big hug - in BED - and tell me what a great dad she thinks I am.</LI>
</LIST>
Last night:
<LIST>

  • <LI>
  • I joined a rehearsal session for an upcoming show - and it went brilliantly if I do say so myself. I felt completely able to play and move my wrist with only a little discomfort. I dunno if there'll be youtube of me playing guitar :) but trust me, it's all good and I feel so relieved.</LI>
    <LI>
  • I came home and we sat around watching telly together. I rubbed her shoulders. We watched a comedy show and laughed at all the same jokes, then we hugged on the couch while watching Boston Legal. It was nice, and I told her so and she said "I'm trying."</LI>
</LIST>Today:
<LIST>

  • <LI>
  • She's just called up from the local primary school. She visited the vice-principal out of the blue and he basically said "Can you start next week?" which is what I knew would happen all along but she didn't really believe. So we're going to get grandparents to mind the kids on rolling shifts and she's going to be a casual teacher on Thursdays for the rest of this year.</LI>
</LIST>
 

Momof12

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<SIZE size="125">Brent if I am behind and you two have solved this issue just ignore my post. I think Sex ,Love Making how ever you want to word it kissing hand holding fondling is a Big Part of Marriage or any realationship. ( Now this is just me, my thoughts) I been with DH for 26 years now and we have a Great Sex Life and you know maybe your wife does not feel pretty? If she out of shape could that be it? I mean even if you make her feel good about her self there so much more then the person your with telling you Your beautiful or your handsome. One has to feel good about thier self too love any one else.I mean how can you give of your self when your missing something? I hope the counseling helps ( I did read it right your guys are getting help?)</SIZE>
<SIZE size="125"></SIZE>
<SIZE size="125">Making it work if your in Love with her Brent it so worth it!! Good luck!!!</SIZE>
 

fallon

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Jul 19, 2007
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evilbrent said:
:)

Ok. Some progress.

On the weekend:
<LIST>

  • <LI>
  • we had father's day on Sunday. She didn't get me a present or a card because she's still sore about Mother's Day earlier in the year (we disagree about whether I got her anything.) but she did give me a big hug - in BED - and tell me what a great dad she thinks I am.</LI>
</LIST>Last night:
<LIST>

  • <LI>
  • I joined a rehearsal session for an upcoming show - and it went brilliantly if I do say so myself. I felt completely able to play and move my wrist with only a little discomfort. I dunno if there'll be youtube of me playing guitar :) but trust me, it's all good and I feel so relieved.</LI>
    <LI>
  • I came home and we sat around watching telly together. I rubbed her shoulders. We watched a comedy show and laughed at all the same jokes, then we hugged on the couch while watching Boston Legal. It was nice, and I told her so and she said "I'm trying."</LI>
</LIST>Today:
<LIST>

  • <LI>
  • She's just called up from the local primary school. She visited the vice-principal out of the blue and he basically said "Can you start next week?" which is what I knew would happen all along but she didn't really believe. So we're going to get grandparents to mind the kids on rolling shifts and she's going to be a casual teacher on Thursdays for the rest of this year.</LI>
</LIST>
I smiled the whole time I read this. I am soooo happy to hear things are getting better. Small steps on her part are great sign and it's wonderful that you love her enough not to push
 

evilbrent

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three steps forward, two back.

long way to go. last couple of days have been pretty bad. my trouble is that immediately after things get 'better' i get very sad because they're not 'ok again' (world of difference) and have trouble hiding it from her.

is 5am here - have just got home from all-nighter so am about to hit the sack.

thanks guys.
 

Momof12

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<SIZE size="125"> Brent Reading how things are going baby steps and rubing the shoulders you know some days for me a back rub and just kiss on the cheek is Great!! Looking forward to hearing that your both are doing Great!!! Sending Postive thoughts your way!!:) </SIZE>
 

evilbrent

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Ok I'm really conflicted now.

Two nights ago we had a talk. Actually I talked. I told her that I need her to understand that something has changed in me - that I don't believe that she loves me anymore. Up until now I've always just believed that she loves me, it's just a phase we're going through, that there was just this one 'thing' to get through and then we'd be back to normal.

Now I believe that this is normal - that she doesn't actually want to get past this 'stage', that she thinks this is normal.

I told her this. I told her that me stopping bugging her for sex isn't a good thing, it doesn't mean everything's ok between us, it means that I've stopped grieving over that. I told her that I don't think of her as my wife anymore.

I asked her if she still loved me, it's not hard, you just say "I love you". She grimaced and said that she didn't know. Then I told her that if she doesn't love me then please, to leave. Please don't keep doing this to me for the next 10, 20, 30 years.

"I don't know" isn't good enough when we've got 2 kids, a mortgage and you're coming up on your 10th anniversary. I've had a vasectomy for this woman. I gave her every single day of my 20's - I've never been (nor want to be) with another woman.

What I basically told her is that it's really really really crunch time now - if there's anything that she's been holding back on, now's the time to act. Like, if she's been sleeping in instead of getting up at 6am to do exercises... or, now's the time to put the kids in childcare and get a job... All the things that she'd deeply regret now doing in ten year's time, all the 'if only's that she's going to go through.

I'm not being arrogant here, but I think I'm the best thing to ever happen for her, and I want to make the road back to our marriage as easy as I can for her. I think her life will be much worse than my life after we seperate. I'm the one who has the income to afford a house. I'm the one with hobbies and interests. I'm the one who will have some certainty in my life - my career - when things go pear-shaped at home. I'll be a wreck, but I do believe that I'll pull through it stronger and maybe even happier. Not her. It will be a big problem for her. Even if she gets to stay in the house (which is likely, really. More likely than me taking the kids to my parents house, or more likely than me finding time and money to put them in child care).

----

So last night we went to a concert together. Her favorite band. Actually, we didn't go together. She left with a friend before I even got home from work. I went in seperately. She left the ticket at the door for me. I didn't see her all night. Didn't look for her. I just sat up the back thinking all those things that I've got above. I couldn't even bring myself to think about the impact on the kids - just that if it's true, if she doesn't love me, then I'm going to have to pack my clothes, my guitar, my bike, and go live with my parents and start to commute to work by car. I sat at the back and tried to enjoy it, but, really, I was just thinking about that.

Then our band came on. Her FAVORITE band. As in, last weekend she drove 2000km round trip to see them play 2 shows. She has ALL their music, including most of the vinyl, even though we don't have a record player. She has a box full of souvenirs under her bed. She's adorned our car in their stickers. Her favorite band.

I moved forward a bit when they were starting, and had a pretty good time. It wasn't until about 2/3 when a couple of kids rushed past me to go dance up the front and I followed them. (Actually, I'm 6'6", I put my hands on this guys back and _pushed_ him through the crowd.) And then I got to join the mosh-pit and do some slam dancing and had a great time. They're an awesome live band, they've got to be one of the best.

After the show finished I was tempted just to leave. Just go. But I hung around and waited while the crowds dispersed. I walked around a bit. I had in mind to just follow her and watch her for a while. But then I turned around and she was right there and beaming and she had a drumstick in her hand!! She'd scored one of the drumsticks from the concert when they chuck stuff out into the crowd. She beamed at me, and I gave her a great big hug when I saw her drumstick (she didn't let it out of her little fist the whole night) and gave her a kiss.

And then she kissed me back.

And then I kissed her back.

And then she kissed me back. I heard her making little appreciative noises.

And we made out like teenagers on the dancefloor of this night-club as people walked around us in a post-gig dehydrated daze.

And then... that was it. After that when I tried to put my hand on her shoulder she flinched away from me. When I tried to hug her she caught someone's eye and went across to talk to somone. I stood around her an hour while she talked to her friends from the fan club and then said "ok, I'm going to go" and walked off.

She got home an hour after me and we went straight to bed to sleep. No kiss good night. She did, I guess, go to sleep without the pillow between us, instead putting her arm on my side. That's something I guess. Something.

Got up this morning an hour late. Am at work and all I can think of is her lips and how they reacted to mine. Lips. I talked to her on the phone just now about getting baby sitting so she can come see my show tomorrow, and it was like talking to a stranger again.

----

You see, what I now realise is that there isn't going to be an "Oh, it's all ok now" moment. She isn't going to melt, look up at me, realise how deeply she's attracted to me, kiss me and suddenly everything will be ok again as the sound-track starts on the theme-song and the camera zooms out and the credits roll up.

If she kisses me, or makes love to me, that's not going to be "it's all ok now" love... that's going to be "Oh, I slipped up but it won't happen again." The next moment she'll go back to not wanting to touch me and she'll be confused and hurt that I haven't 'got it out of my system'. She won't actually SAY it, but I know she'll be thinking, even sub-consiously "Again? But we had sex last week?! Why is he still bugging me about this?"

I'm going to close with a Woody Allen scene where Woody and his wife are both talking to their respective therapists, and they're both asked the same question "So, how often do you have sex?" Woody looks morose and says "Oh, hardly ever. Once, maybe twice a week." His wife is exasperated "ALL the time. Once, maybe twice a week!"
 

fallon

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I wish I knew what to tell you. I really wish I could say "just keep fighting and it will all be OK".
 

evilbrent

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We put the kids into one bedroom (which is illegal remember) and she goes to sleep in the now spare room. Or out in the loungeroom on the futon. Or I put up a tent in the backyard.
 

fallon

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I don't see that being a good fix here. Maybe I'm wrong but I think with something like this it's all or nothing
 

Xero

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Yeah... you're putting yourself through too much for her Brent. I hate to say just give up, but it seems clear that she doesn't <I>want </I>you fighting for her. In a relationship where only one person is trying, things will never work out. It really takes two, you both have to be trying and you both have to want it. A lot. You've already given too much of yourself to her. You've only got one life. You have to move on and try to be happy. It doesn't seem possible I know, but it takes a lot of time and effort to forget about it and leave it alone, and even moreso, to find something else. Well, someone. It sincerely bothers me to say this, but truthfully I don't think she's interested in fixing things. I don't think she wants any of it anymore. You have to make her get a life by leaving her on her own. Don't let her stay in your house and make you miserable. Or don't you stay, whatever. This is of course how I feel about it all, and it's just as easy as that for me to <I>say</I> it. I know it wouldn't be that easy if I were you. I just hope I have a chance of making it easier for you to decide. I'm so sorry about the hurt you have to go through with the girl you love.
 

evilbrent

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So, hi, I wanted to just write about a couple of things tonight.

Firstly - it looks like we're going to try counselling. Her psychologist tells her that while we both think of this as being her 'fault' it's almost impossible for that to be true: on some level, she's not getting what she wants from me. Apparently if we see a good counsellor they can guide us through the right sort of conversations to get closer to the heart of the matter.

I don't disagree - it's just so expensive (remember we've only got the one income) and I can't think what to do with the kids. There's.... logistics involved.

This morning before going to work I basically said "So I guess, really, what'll happen is that I go and stay at my parent's house..." and she asked why I was "back on this" and I said that I haven't thought about anything else for a year. I repeated myself, I haven't thought about anything else for a year. I'm always thinking about this. I'm not back on it. I haven't stopped.

I went back through some of my old Livejournal entries and found an entry from 2006 that said "For the record it was in late 2005 that we stopped having a relationship. I don't want to be with her anymore."

She messaged today and we agreed that she'll try to get an appointment with this guy her psychologist recommended. I don't know how we'll afford it or how we'll get the kids minded, but I guess that it's still cheaper and easier on the kids to do this than to get divorced.

I took the long way home from work today - riding an extra 4km across the bridge and through a park - because I couldn't stop crying. It's all just really real.

I watched a (clean) youtube video at work of some girls dancing: it was kind of a joke. It was a "Brunette awareness test": two pretty girls dancing but the blonde girl was really really pretty - so pretty that (most guys) wouldn't notice the brunette. I sat there watching the video and it stopped being so easy to pretend I wasn't interested. It stopped being so easy to have these feelings - it stopped being so easy to not think about my wife like that.

I tried to not think about the last time we hired a hotel room together.

I tried not to think about her like that.

And then all this stuff just came pouring out and I had to go home.

----

I just went and had a talk with her. Neither of us know, logistically, what it would look like for us to separate, but it seems to me that the simplest, and least satisfactory, way would be for me to just pack a car and go stay at my parents. That would be just stupid, because they live on the other side of the city, and this house is right near my work, and we probably couldn't afford the petrol, let alone the fact that I swore I'd never do that commute ever again.

I've been ignoring her tonight - but I had to let her know that it's not because I'm being mean, it's just that I look at her and I love her and it's very painful to know that she doesn't love me and I just have to withdraw. When my close friends go overseas (which they always seem to do: my sister in Iceland right now for 18 months) I just have to pretend they don't exist. I'm not being mean, I just have to withdraw to protect myself.

That makes sense right?

This is all so ridiculous. I KNOW that she loves me. This canNOT be happening. It's not real.

----

The other thing I wanted to talk about was that I want to give her side of the story.

She's had every type of depression under the sun. I think I mentioned it earlier: starting with a teenage eating disorder she was bulemic and anorexic in high school, then when she met me she was starting to gain weight but still a bit bulemic (which is like being a bit pregnant right?) so she had all these body image issues: imagine it - an overweight anorexic. She feels 10 times more overweight than she is.

She had some treatment for depression in the years before we had kids, but all of it fruitless. She's also had a bad run of sickness - chronic asthmatic, bad ears, bad infections. She has no immune system.

An example of a 1 year period of her life: she had a massive stomach bug for a month or so. As that was clearing up she found out she was pregnant. She had massive morning sickness for several weeks. On the way to the hospital one time she broke her leg and had to go through the pregnancy with a cast on. After the cast came out she broke out in pups or spots or something all over her body and I remember us going up to the hospital one time at 3am trying to convince the doctor to let my stressed out overtired very pregnant wife get some medicine for relief from the pain but the guy thought we were junkies (the nurse ended up giving her something when the doctor's back was turned). She had an emergency caesarian birth because she never dilated, which took her really 6 weeks to recover from. Then she had PND, and our first didn't sleep through the night for 8 months.

When she had our second she would lie on the kitchen floor and weep while I was at work.

Just this year she's had an infection in her since March. We went camping in a perfectly warm Autumn weekend when an extreme cold front came across the state and the temperature went below zero. Unheard of. We all ended up with bronchitis. It was harsh. When she gets asthma you can hear her wheezing from across the room and she has to go to bed and breath through her machine for a half hour and the drugs give her the shakes. The infection went through her sinuses and her chest and ended up in her ears which burst. Burst. Green mucus and blood seeping out her ear onto a towel while she screams. Then a week later they burst again. Then the bronchitis came back. She never really recovered, she was sick all winter, and they've burst twice again in the last 3 weeks, with the doctor not quite believing her until he put her on antibiotics so strong they made her vomit all day.

She's been seeing a cognitive therapist because she's unable to see the good in anything. I don't blame her for not seeing the good in burst ear drums, broken limbs, depression, weight gain or crippling asthma. No-one likes that. But she recently went on a road-trip with some new friends and one of them slept a lot - and my wife took that as being proof positive that her friend actually really disliked her. The phrase the shrink uses is that she 'awfulises' everything. Everytime she has a pause in a conversation with an acquaintance - to her it's because they despise her. Everytime she doesn't hear from someone for a while - it's because they despise her. Everytime she feels me come within a foot of her - her skin crawls.

(...so you can see that me walking in with my lame "how's about a blow job" <I>needs</I> goes down. One can understand that, while she's reeling from one disaster to the other her level of eroticism might drop... yes?)
I honestly believe that if she were able to love life, then I'd be a big part of the life she loves. I'm not trying to even make her out to be a victim - in a lot of ways she's leading a charmed life, in this house, with all this stuff, me with a reasonable enough (almost) income, running water, hot and cold, fresh food, no war, no famine, no violence, no fear... it's just that I can understand the path that's led her to this place.

And I wanted you to understand that path too.

I wanted you to understand that she's not mean to me - she loves me, just not like "that" - she's just all hollowed out inside now. With the experience she's had, and the tools she's had available for coping, this is the way that she's responded. It's just her story.

It's become easier for her to eliminate intimacy from her life than to continue trying to raise the energy to smile.

In my world smiling isn't something that takes energy, it's something that gives you energy. In my world love isn't something you feel when there's no disasters happening, it's something that means that disasters are immaterial. In my world screwing and laughing and drinking and singing and kissing and hugging and running and riding and working and playing are the reason why we go to all this trouble - not things we do when there isn't any trouble.

----

I think you're right.

I think this is ending.

It can't be real. This can't really be happening.
 

NinJaBob

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I have never experienced anything like this so it's hard for me to know what to say. I think that it's good that you are seeking counseling because you want it to work. I think it's good that you have been there for her. If counseling doesn't work (and it may take some time) then obviously you need to call it quits. Sometimes what we want isn't good for us. You'll put yourself in an early grave if you try to force something that doesn't fit for too long. Also it will effect your children. They learn how to have relationships by watching how we interact with each other. No matters who's fault it is if it doesn't work then it doesn't work. I'm sorry that this is happening to you and your family.

-Phil
 

evilbrent

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Her brother wants her to go over and help him look at houses tomorrow morning with him (it's 7:30pm Friday now). And she had said that she was going to sleep over there on Saturday night. When I came home tonight I tried to not make eye contact or talk to her unless it would be rude not to. At first she said that she'd go over after the kids were in bed tonight but then she said that she'd more likely let me sleep in tomorrow and go in the morning instead. I said "I don't think you've heard anything that I've said."

Then while I went outside with the kids to enjoy the start of summer (sitting on the bbq watching the sun go down etc etc) and out to the garage to do some weights to test my hand (first time lifting ANY weight at all since I broke my hand in May. A bit uncomfortable but I think it went ok.) and by that time she'd packed her stuff and was ready to leave. Thank goodness the garage door was only half open because I didn't have to say goodbye or look at her as she left.

I sent her a message saying "Feel free to come home any time before 7:30am Monday".

I'm thinking of turning off my phone for the weekend.

If it's hot tomorrow I'm taking the kids to the beach.

I'm a complete arse. I suck.

Thanks Phil. Thanks Fallon. Thanks Xero. I understand that I play my own part in this problem - "It only takes one to slip up but it takes two to screw up". It helps that you guys let me treat this thread like a blog - better out than in ya know?
 

Xero

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Definitely better out than in. :) This is totally off topic, but you are an awesome writer. Also, you stole my summer! lol I live in Pennslyvania, US and you're talking about the start of summer while I mourn over the end of it.

Anyway, I'm glad you guys are looking at counceling. It does suck though, because who has money for that? I just don't understand how anyone could ignore love as honest as yours, but I'm not in her shoes. I have to tell you something though (I know - I'm all, go Brent, boo wife person, but I can't change the way I feel). I have been through a lot of the same stuff your wife has, but I would never drag anyone I love down with me and I totally let go of things after they're done, because if you don't then you CAN'T be happy. And why would you live like that if you don't have to? Life is crappy. You gotta suck it up sometimes.

My situation for example - I've always had major depression problems, an I've gone through some stuff dealing with that that I wont explain on the internet, but lets just say it was severe enough that you would probably not know what to say after I told you. I've always had a horrifying self image, I get the feeling I'm being abandoned the minute I get the feeling someone is trying to do something besides hang out with me. I got pregnant on accident when I was 19. I was about to start college (screw that), my mom moved to a different state, and I had no job and no money. I had morning sickness for three months and I lost 15 pounds or so. I finally got better but my whole pregnancy sucked. I had several bladder infections and I could never get rid of them. They were very painful and one of them was so bad it spread to other areas in my body. Oh tons of stuff there, but anyway my boyfriend cheated on me the whole time I was pregnant with my best friends 16 year old little sister (and she was my friend at the time too), and I wont even go through what happened when I found out about that. I was like 8 months pregnant, it involved a lot of histerical crying, being afraid of being alone, a sense of utter failure, and more and more... you get it.

Eli was colic for months, and I couldn't find the right formula for him. I never slept. He cried all the time. I had no help, I was all alone, I was miserable. But I kept going. And you know what? Things got better, because I let them get better, and I WANTED them to get better. Love and my family and all the good things, those are what brought me through all of it, not what made it worse.

Bottom line here is, don't feel bad for me, and I don't feel bad for your wife, because <I>everyone</I> has some kind of sob story, most especially if they want to use it for an excuse to be miserable. Everyone will tell you they've been through something horrible, or they're going through something that sucks, but you're just a jerk if you use that as an excuse to treat the ones you're supposed to love badly. It's selfish. That kind of thing really does make everything about you.

I'm not saying she has to love you. Maybe she doesn't anymore, and that's part of life too. But she can't make up a bunch of excuses and she can't keep putting you through crap. Even when I am at my worst, I love the people I love and I don't love the people that I don't. I think depression is real but I think it's a very self-centered condition, and when I look back on my depression, I find it embarassing. But maybe that's just me.

I don't reall know how this helps you. I'm just saying my thoughts. I hope I'm not making it worse. :(
 

Xero

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And btw, Eli still only off and on sleeps through the night, and he didn't even start to try until he was 11 months old lol. And I broke my toe a couple months ago! :D lol just trying to lighten the mood.
 

budnkota

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Xero said:
Oh tons of stuff there, but anyway my boyfriend cheated on me the whole time I was pregnant with my best friends 16 year old little sister (and she was my friend at the time too), :(
???? seriously? Is it the same guy you've been with on here? You guys seemed like a great pair... I know I've been gone for a while, but did I really miss that muc?!?!?!?

On a bright note - at least Eli is trying at a year. Ry didn't until he was 3. I can count on one hand the number of times he slept through prior to turning 3...

Brent - the part about how she needs to love life before she can love you - or something like that anyway, I think is more accurate that you will ever know. I can't do a "normal" relationship, because unless you are a dog or a child, I just don't have the emotional capacity for it.