Is "under God" in the American Pledge of Allegiance appropriate?...
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what is the pledge of allegiance? i mean i have heard of it but what are the words and what is the point?
don't mean to sound ignorant or misinformed but we have nothing like this in Australia.. just the anthem.
don't mean to sound ignorant or misinformed but we have nothing like this in Australia.. just the anthem.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic for which it stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" (approximately) It's a spoken pledge a student does at the beginning of schoool.
I'm not sure if links are allowed here, so just lookup Pledge of Allegiance" on Wikipedia. Nice stub on it.
I'm not sure if links are allowed here, so just lookup Pledge of Allegiance" on Wikipedia. Nice stub on it.
Nice to see you around again. I have been wondering how you guys were doing!Antoinette said:
Now to my opinion, as an agnostic I have no problem with it. If you think back to what this country was created on...religious freedom and well basically religion, then it is a very fitting pledge. Personally it doesn't bother me.
I've always thought it was inappropriate. As well as swearing on a bible in court. I don't think it implies or promotes religious freedom at all. It promotes religion, and it promotes Christianity. It's not that big of a deal to me though, I just don't say it. But I would be lying if I said it didn't urk me to hear my son say it. Just because I know his knowledge of god is pretty limited.
I don't think so, but it really is just the vestiges of the old hyper-Christian cold war mentality. I don't believe in the pledge of allegiance to start with, the whole thing is rotten to me.
As far as I am concerned - and I say this as a Canadian, not as a US citizen - this has no place into any school. And not just the "under god" part, but the whole thing. To me, this pledge has 3 things that I deem unacceptable in any school:NPRhead said:
1) It has a political flavor / agenda
2) It has christian religious references
3) It is taught to children who are too young to have critical thinking.
IMO, religion and politics should always be clearly separated.
And education and children should not be mixed with either of these.
But hey, that's just me. I am just glad I am not in USA.
I don't have any born-Canadian relatives, but do have an aunt and uncle that expatriated to Vancouver, from Seattle, a few years ago. I usewd to read MacLeans as a teen after a school friend origianally from MTL gave me back issues. Was always fascinated by our neighbor to the north, who spoke in an accent somewhat similar to ours, who drove on the right side of the road, who listened to the same music...but who had parliament.parentastic said:
But I've never thought to ask, do they have a similar pledge they go through?
No, we do not.NPRhead said:
There has been a big revolution about 60 years ago and religion was excluded both from education and government. Now all schools are non-religious by law, with some special exceptions for some private schools, under some strict conditions.
And there is no such thing as a pledge to Canada or anything like it anywhere, to my knowledge, in the education system.
...Although Canada is dangerously bringing back the religious right with Harper in power in the past few years, sadly.
I agree completely with this. IMO there are too many variables in religion for it to be a part of anything official, including education and government. There are way too many religions, and you know there are way too many gray areas. To me, education should simply be about learning. Law making and such should be strictly about business, and religion is not business at all. It is IMO recreational, beliefs and not fact, emotional and not necessary to law making or educating at all. I absolutely do not want someone's religious beliefs getting in the way of the logic and level headedness necessary for law making and government ruling. The only people who are really, truely for it are the Christians. They think that their religion is the only one that matters, and that's why it's okay. I personally have more respect for people with other beliefs than mine to feel that way. I am an athiest and I don't think the government or the schools should be preaching athiesm. That wouldn't be fair to the Christians, or the Jewish, or the Muslims, or the Bhuddists, etc. And I think that their beliefs shouldn't be disrespected, just as I wouldn't want mine to be. Christians just don't seem to make that connection.parentastic said:
I am SO not trying to offend anyone, or say that this applies to literally every Christian (everyone is different and I realize it's a bit of a stereotype, though I wasn't shooting for that I'm sorry), just that this is the general popular stand of most Christians especially those that are for it in schools and government.
Interesting debate... I have to say, I agree with parentastic. I'd be very uncomfortable with having my DD recite any "pledge" with political and/or religious undertones. I grew up in an era where religion. (Christianity) was an integral part of the schooling system and every school day was started and ended with prayer. Religious education was a mandatory subject etc. It left me confused and conflicted about religion. As for political undertones - oh boy. I can keep you guys busy all day talking about the effects of indoctrinating little kids with political ideoligies. How do you think a system as screwed up as apartheid managed to last that long? So no, no and no again.
In fact they tried to introduce something like it here a few years ago, but they couldn't find any support in any population group, so they let it go. Thank goodness!
In fact they tried to introduce something like it here a few years ago, but they couldn't find any support in any population group, so they let it go. Thank goodness!
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I believe that children should be given the choice to say it or not. As for me I never said it when I was in school and to this day I still don't. I say bah humbug to it.
I also agree that God should be left up to each individual to believe or not to believe. I don't approve of government butting in to religion but actually "God" is used in many patriotic songs and I'm sure other countries have the word God in theirs as well. I doubt that it's only an 'American Thing'.
I've said the pledge since I was a kid, it made sense than, but now I can see how adding 'under God' might offend citizens who don't believe in God. I agree that it shouldn't be mentioned and children shouldn't be forced to say it.
For all of you who do not live in America I understand how the pledge might be misunderstood. However it isn't a prayer, we never say it in church before a mass, it's a pledge of Allegiance to your country.
It's not christian either by the way, Many religions believe in God...in many different forms, When people say the pledge and choose to say 'under God' it may not be a christian God they are referring too.
The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written as a country pledge for ANY country. America added in the part: 'Of the United States of America" in regards to the flag we are saluting. (But originally no Country was named) We also added in " under God" somewhere in the late 50's or early 60's because basically, our country was afraid of communism taking over, or persuading Americans to vote that way, and since people of those days were still afraid of Gods Wrath, the powers at the time figured lets throw God in there (a subliminal threat) to remind the people that he's watching, so you better vote the 'right' way. lol
Hey...Communism never got voted in, So maybe it worked? lol
Ive also met many immigrants who studied hard to learn the Pledge of Allegiance and never once complained about the phrase "under God". It's just funny.
Anyway I'm very proud of my country and our pledge, and know how lucky I am to be born here. Can't think of any other place I'd rather live.
That's my take on it.
I've said the pledge since I was a kid, it made sense than, but now I can see how adding 'under God' might offend citizens who don't believe in God. I agree that it shouldn't be mentioned and children shouldn't be forced to say it.
For all of you who do not live in America I understand how the pledge might be misunderstood. However it isn't a prayer, we never say it in church before a mass, it's a pledge of Allegiance to your country.
It's not christian
either by the way, Many religions believe in God...in many different forms, When people say the pledge and choose to say 'under God' it may not be a christian God they are referring too. The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written as a country pledge for ANY country. America added in the part: 'Of the United States of America" in regards to the flag we are saluting. (But originally no Country was named) We also added in " under God" somewhere in the late 50's or early 60's because basically, our country was afraid of communism taking over, or persuading Americans to vote that way, and since people of those days were still afraid of Gods Wrath, the powers at the time figured lets throw God in there (a subliminal threat) to remind the people that he's watching, so you better vote the 'right' way. lol
Hey...Communism never got voted in, So maybe it worked? lol
Ive also met many immigrants who studied hard to learn the Pledge of Allegiance and never once complained about the phrase "under God". It's just funny.
Anyway I'm very proud of my country and our pledge, and know how lucky I am to be born here. Can't think of any other place I'd rather live.
That's my take on it.
I was referring to religion being a part of education and politics, not the word "God".NancyM said:It's not christian
Two things comes to mind:NancyM said:
1) I appreciate that your version of "god" is an open minded version that gives the space to include anyone's God. But what if you do not believe in god at all? Should your children still be forced to sing this?
2) I challenge the very idea that children should be taught anything "patriotic" in a school. Countries and governments aren't perfect; the ability to keep a critical eye over one's country is part of citizen's duty, which, IMO, is compromised when we teach children "patriotism".
The word itself is controversial: look how "patriotic" the "patriot" act is, and how deeply it destroys private life and human rights.
The language defines how we think (or stop to think), see for instance George Orwell's 1984.
So for me, both patriotism and religion destroys critical thinking.
But why should they be forced to pledge to their country either?NancyM said:
You know, USA is the only place in the world, to my knowledge, where you can be incarcerated for burning a flag... which I am sorry, sounds really silly to me. But hey, I am a crazy Canadian.
I get that. What I don't get is how saying it in a different context than mass at church, for instance, makes it different than a prayer?NancyM said:
For me, what makes a prayer a prayer is about how you place your hopes and dreams - in one word, your faith - into something you cannot see or should not try to critique. Hence, for me, the pledge does sound very much like a prayer, god or not.
But why salute a flag?NancyM said:
And why in class? By young minds in development?
Just my 2 cents, from an outside point of view, for what it is worth.
Canada has Catholic schools in which the teachers are paid by the government. I have a friend who taught in one of these about 10 years ago. In Alberta, Catholic parishioners pay their property taxes to the Catholic school district whether or not their children go to Catholic schools.
We had a Dutch exchange student who had attended a state-sponsored Catholic school in the Netherlands.
I taught with Australian teachers who had taught in state-sponsored religious schools in Melbourne and Hobart.
In Greece, at least until fairly recently, the national curriculum included teaching the national religion.
These are all foreign concepts to Americans, but they seemed to work in those countries and it isn't my place to judge or disapprove (though I found myself doing so in Greece.)
I'm not bothered by "under God" and I don't think that saying the Pledge of Allegiance has stopped Americans from questioning their government. Questioning government is what our country was founded on. In fact, I would say that Americans on average distrust their government more than the average European. There is certainly a big push these days in the US for government taking over a lot of aspects of our lives that our founding fathers would be horrified to know, and a desire among many to go the way of a lot of European countries in which the government is trusted to control a whole lot of things it currently does not in the US, but that is the nature of free choice. It swings back and forth from one extreme to the other. That's why constants are important, in my opinion. I worry a little as we get closer and closer to the opposite ends of the spectrum, but I have faith that we will swing back the other way as long as we have those constants.
We had a Dutch exchange student who had attended a state-sponsored Catholic school in the Netherlands.
I taught with Australian teachers who had taught in state-sponsored religious schools in Melbourne and Hobart.
In Greece, at least until fairly recently, the national curriculum included teaching the national religion.
These are all foreign concepts to Americans, but they seemed to work in those countries and it isn't my place to judge or disapprove (though I found myself doing so in Greece.)
I'm not bothered by "under God" and I don't think that saying the Pledge of Allegiance has stopped Americans from questioning their government. Questioning government is what our country was founded on. In fact, I would say that Americans on average distrust their government more than the average European. There is certainly a big push these days in the US for government taking over a lot of aspects of our lives that our founding fathers would be horrified to know, and a desire among many to go the way of a lot of European countries in which the government is trusted to control a whole lot of things it currently does not in the US, but that is the nature of free choice. It swings back and forth from one extreme to the other. That's why constants are important, in my opinion. I worry a little as we get closer and closer to the opposite ends of the spectrum, but I have faith that we will swing back the other way as long as we have those constants.
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I'm not sure why anyone gets upset over it. Although the USA and its laws are based on Judea Christian principles the word God is not exclusive to Christianity.
I do have to disagree with paternalistic on this one though. I believe children should be educated on religion and politics. Too many kids enter the adult world ignorant on what a socialist or democrat or republican is and most kids are unaware of any religion beyond what their family chooses. This results in a terrible lack of tolerance and understanding of others.
The challenge is how to educate our children on religion and politics without teachers pushing their personal views on the subject.
I do have to disagree with paternalistic on this one though. I believe children should be educated on religion and politics. Too many kids enter the adult world ignorant on what a socialist or democrat or republican is and most kids are unaware of any religion beyond what their family chooses. This results in a terrible lack of tolerance and understanding of others.
The challenge is how to educate our children on religion and politics without teachers pushing their personal views on the subject.