Mom struggling with kicking her daughter out, advice?...

[Superdad454]

Daughter is 21 and is in college and doing great, works part time, school full time, following all the rules and doing her part paying bills and helping around the house etc.

Daughter 19 is constantly making poor choices. Wasted a semester of college, failed every class, lied about it until after grades came, cost lots of $$. Still doing sneaky stuff that puts the rest of the family at risk, having parties, drinking under age, smoking pot, dropped out of college. She lies constantly, and she is not smart enough to even understand how poor her lies are and gets caught 99% of the time, then gets mad at mom for catching her, essentially punishing mom for trying to have rules. Daughter 19 lives and acts like she is 14 and does nothing that she doesn't want to, refuses to do chores, clean up after herself, contribute financially etc.

She led mom along for last 6 months with stories of going into the military, constant excuses as to why it wasn't happening yet. Mom finally gave her a deadline to be enlisted or enrolled in school again by **/**/** or she had to move out. Well that date is rapidly approaching and she still has not done anything, at this point she uses the house as a pit stop, comes home, does laundry, cook, makes a mess, and leaves, spending most of her time with a BF 8+ years older than her that already has kids and lives in poor conditions. Mom is very worried that if she kicks her out that she with either move in with the older guy and live like white trash, or call up other family to move in there, then mom feels guilty that her daughter is now a burden to her family members.

She recently asked daughter what she planned on doing, since she had less than 7 days to have a solution and has obviously not done anything to solve her situation. Daughter lashed out with the old guilt/punishment routine, stating that she "had no money, what does she expect her to do?, you just want me out of the house!, what does it really cost you to let me live here?".

So mom is now torn on what to do, if she caves and doesn't kick her out regardless of where she has to go (which I tell her is not her problem since the daughter has had almost a year to figure something out and has done nothing but play and work part time), then she is annoyed with herself, and D21 that is following the rules is very vocal and makes it a point to say so with barbs like "Oh, so I guess I didn't have to do all the work I have done and followed the rules because I could have just done whatever I wanted and gotten a free ride too!".

Daughter 19 has zero financial skills and blows all her checks asap so she really has no money to do anything with.

Mom asks me "well what do I do, do I literally box her stuff up on the night of the deadline and tell her she is kicked out?" and I don't really know what to say. I lean towards the hard @$$ end of things and since my mom kicked me out at 18 and literally let me sleep on a bench for a few nights I don't have much advice she wants to hear.

Everyone involved, including D19 admits the entire situation is a result of her own poor choices but I know there is allot of enabling going on and don't know what to say. This girl really is naive and has no clue what the life she is intentionally heading towards is going to be like for her and she won't listen to anyone that tries to tell her.

So, if you were in this situation, what would you do, or say to Mom?

 

[Superdad454]

The lack of responses is pretty indicative of what I have found.
There is allot of info and opinions of kicking a kid that is under 18 and being really out of control, or, a young adult child that has completed college and moved back home and doesn't really feel like leaving.

There is just not much info on what to do with a kid that is 18-25 that isn't doing anything REALLY bad, but certainly is not doing anything to "launch" themselves into life and continuing to make poor decisions as if they were a kid.

Really, what CAN you do with a "kid" (of 18-20) that cannot support themselves realistically that has pushed you to give them a "Do X or you are moving out!" ultimatum?

 

[IADad]

I wouldn't say the lack of response is indicative of anything, threads get lost/pushed out of the way here every now and then. I know I didn't see it until now.

So, I'm a little confused is she "not really doing anything bad" or is she "Constantly putting the family at risk?" The answer makes a difference.

If it's the latter, then I think the answer is "out the door," no other options you've had enough.

If it's the former, then I think on D-day I'd say, "okay, we've supported you through a failed year of college and beyond, then supported you until you could make your next move. We said you'd have to leave, but we're willing to work on a plan together with you, but that plan HAS TO start today. So, if that plan is the military, then we go to a reccruiter today. If that plan is work and get an apartment of your own, then you either get a financial counselor, and start living like a rent paying adult until you can become one or you make us your financial counselor until then. You know you've messed things up, and I think we've been pretty darned understanding. What would you do if you were us? The point is not what it's really costing us to have you live here, the point is that it's destructive to your future. The longer you can coast through life the more likely that you'll never take responsibility for anything. Our role as parents is to transition you to independent life. If you don't want our guidance, you're an adult and you can leave now. If you want our help, then we sit down and work a plan for what is going to happen every day this week, every week for the next 8 weeks and up to a point where you can be independent. This is not a blank check or open invitation to continue to sponge off us. It's us helping you make and execute a plan.

I predict she'll fail, and she'll be living as white trash until she either accpets her white trashiness or wakes up and pulls herself up.

As for the relatives, your wife cannot feel responsible. IF they fall for her sotry and take her in htey, not your wife, are responsible for what they take on.

As for D21, it seems like she has a little growning up to do to, because while she may be living by the rules, it's horrible for her to be using this situation to attempt to hurt you and your wife. IF she's going to persist then she neededn't communicate with you because it only causes you more stress. You are trying, desparately to resolve this happily for everyone, and her acting like some hurt jr high girl is not helping anything.

But I think the point she makes is right, you've played this long enough, it's time to either get a plan moving or cut her free and the other kids do deserver some degree of fair treatment (but they shouldn't throw it in your face.)

good luck

 

[Superdad454]

I guess it's a matter of perspective and how her actions could effect the rest of the family. If she gets pulled over and gets a DUI, then that only effects her, immediately, however in the big picture, it means that she is now immobile and depending on family and friends to get her too and from work. That's just an example, she was caught trying to get a copy of her older sisters ID through the DMV, which to her was "no big deal", but to the sister it was "identity theft" and could have legitimately resulted in some issues with her desired career and who knows what else.

Is she robbing stores or cooking meth, no, so I guess it's all perspective.

I know mom doesn't have the heart/backbone to kick her out onto the streets, I think the entire act of "drawing a line in the sand" has backfired because D19 has pretty much called her bluff. She is going to stare us right in the face and either lie about why she couldn't get into the military, or tell us she can't get in and play helpless "so what do you expect me to do? I am broke and can't do anything about it, if you kick me out I will be sleeping in my car.." and of course mom will buckle and it will turn into a big sob-fest for all involved.

I like your ideas about the new rules and financial conditions, allot of what I read online sounds very similar. Thanks for the input!

 

[parentastic]

Superdad454,

It seems clear from your posts that the relationship between your 19 years old daughter and the rest of the family is eroding and that there is a lot of tension going on in the family. From her shoes, she must feel very strongly rejected. The more she feels rejected, the less she will want to make an effort to get integrated in the family or to do what is asked of her. The less she does, the more aggravated the tension is - so this is a spiral going downhill.

I don't know if you have the time, or if you are in a place where it is possible to restore the quality of the relationship. I certainly would understand if you are not! If on the other side, you'd be willing to take that time - I think that the spiral cannot be broken by kicking her out (it severs the relationship instead of restoring it) nor by imposing her more rules and boundaries and ultimatums.
What is needed is to restore the empathy, the care - so that it triggers her own empathy and care and desire to get integrated and appreciated.
If you think this is something you'd liek to explore, and it takes a lot of time! let me know and I can offer some potentials insights.

Best regards,
Nicolas, Family Life Educator

 

[RegalSin]

1. She needs to get pregnant. She will just work towards her kids.

2. She can become an actress. They are truly idiots.

3. Marry her off. Mail her half way around the world or something.

....................

4. Seriously ask her what would, if she could do for the rest of her life? Work towards that, work with her like wild fire, high on grease.

5. Kicking her out is a dumb thing. She will just have to figure out how to live. She might end up in a worst state.

4. I don't wanna say this but maybe she could be a porn star. They are not that bad people. Most men she will sleep with are out of prison, the military, or some rich person from europe that will take her on a "magical"
carpet ride. They make good money. Yes it is 50/50 chance but so is military.

5. Public servant. The jobs that nobody wants but is allway their. You need to be part of selective service as well.

6. Medical employee. They just like actors but get paid to next to nothing. Empty inside.


7. Get a remote control flying dollar bill and make her chase it into the sunset.

.................................................

When somebody is failing in school, they are pre-occupied with something else. Find out what that thing is.


You can't be a surgoen, if your an actor.
You can be an actor, if your an artist.
You can't be an artist if your an athlete.
So forth.

Humans are not multitasking beings. On a proffesional monkey see, monkey do level.

She needs to choose some sorta path, that makes her 100% happy and go for it.

 

[parentastic]

Hello Superdad454,

Just checking to see if since then you had some update...
If you want to share it with us, perhaps we can help some more.

Good luck!

 

[MissedOps]

That is a very tough situation. Sounds like my and my sister to be honest. (i was the good one).

I do agree with the other posters, if you kick her out she will move in with her boyfriend.

Have you tried counseling of any kind?

 

[KinonSimon]

The best option for you is take her to the Physcotherapist.Counseling and family therapy helps a lot in improving the quality of life.Counselor helps us to better understand our relationships and accept the facts.

 

[KinonSimon]

The best option for you is take her to the Psychotherapist.Counseling and family therapy helps a lot in improving the quality of life.Counselor helps us to better understand our relationships and accept the facts.

 

[Superdad454]

Thanks for the feedback all...

The root issue is mostly lack of motivation and laziness and a sense of entitlement and her idea that she is "a kid" and it's her mom's "job" to support her, pretty much indefinitely. She was in school and simply didn't go, she lied about it and when the semester grades came and mom found out she wasted thousands of dollars for nothing, her response was just "some people aren't cut out for school mom", yet she couldn't have announced/decided that BEFORE wasting the $$.

Mom told her she would pay for trade school, and D19 just says "she can't decide what she wants to do with her life so a trade school isn't an option right now". So now she works part time at a quickie mart and blows all her $$ on gawd knows what and gets to live at home for free (she does pay a couple bills but nothing major) while she "decides what she wants to do.

Who do I talk to to get free rent and food while I decide what I want to do, I am not happy with my present career so I think I deserve a "break" to reconsider my career. /SNARK


As far as therapy and counseling goes, I am all for that type of thing as a KID, but how much of that is realistic for a young ADULT, and with no insurance, who PAYS for it?

Frankly I don't CARE if she "feels alienated", if that's true it's due to her own choices, I don't think someone over 18 that has decided to start smoking and getting drunk on a regular basis, and is dating a 34yr old MAN, deserves to be coddled and made to feel "everything is ok, we love you honey". She is choosing how she wants to live her life and she needs to live with the results of those choices just like I did.

I was kicked out at 18 and told to sink or swim, like most of my friends, so this new idea so many parents I run into of parenting and "being friends" into their 20's seems insane to me. This is an ADULT, she chose to waste the teen years where you GET to mess around and flounder while you figure things out, it's no longer mine or mom's problem that she doesn't WANT to become an adult and get started on working a crappy job for the rest of her life until she dies, you know, the "American Dream".

At this point we are "hoping for the best", she got accepted into the Nat Guard and ships out after the new year but we are feeling very anxious because all it would take is a criminal charge or getting pregnant etc to ruin that. Mom is hoping that boot camp will "straighten her out", and I know they are going to destroy her and that gives me some hope that she will be shocked into reality and come back a little more mature and hopefully have SOME direction.

 

[rob1926]

Barring her actually being physically violent with family members...I would advise you to explore other options. Kicking her out will only add to the fracture between her and your household. Also.....she sounds quite willing to ignore any time limit you impose, so you are only forcing her hand if you do so. You have stated what might need to happen if she does not comply, but what is in it for her if she does? Working towards a positive, may produce better results.

 

[Sallyskidshop]

How I empathise with the situation, it is tough on Mum but she is going to have to make a stand otherwise the 19 year old will continue to walk all over her. Best thing is to get some help for her now before it is too late, before she has children, before she gets into a life style that she can't change. Unfortunately, if the 19 year old doesn't want to get any help there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Mum is enabling the daughter, ground rules need to be firmly in place for her and Mum shouldn't back down, if she does then daughter knows that if Mum says something she actually doesn't mean it. Mum has said that she'll kick her out of the house if xyz don't happen, she must stick to it, it will be extremely hard for her to do, but unfortunately she's going to have to if daughter is going to realise that what mum says goes. Hopefully she'll come back with her tail between her legs and do something positive with her life.

 

[parentastic]

Superdad454, thanks for the update.
If you will allow me, I am seeing this whole situation in a very different light, perhaps because I have been trained to look at systems (how people interact together) and patterns (how these interactions feed of teach other into a spiral) rather than look at one single person as responsible.

Your partner and yourself are of course free to disregard what follows entirely.

The root issue is mostly lack of motivation and laziness and a sense of entitlement and her idea that she is "a kid" and it's her mom's "job" to support her, pretty much indefinitely.

Let me be frank: <I>I seriously doubt that this is the case.</I>
It may be how you <I>feel</I> about this situation. But it's your interpretation of your step daughter's motivations for her behavior.

"Laziness" is a judgment. The very act of seeing your child as lazy already position them to behave just that way. Why would they push themselves, if their parents do not believe in them?

"Lack of motivation" is probably a good assessment, but why isn't she motivated? Do you know where motivation comes from? (see below)

"Sense of entitlement" ? Perhaps. But again, how so? Children who are tightly attached, who feel cared and loved truly unconditionally, usually feel part of the family and <I>want</I> to help naturally, even if this gets harder at adolescence.

So, what I am getting here, superdad454, is a strong sense of judging from you (and perhaps from her mom), a clear set of assumptions you have already set (and do not seem to be willing to challenge), and a desire to kick her out or shake her so she can suddenly see and agree with <I>your reality</I>, without trying to understand <I>her reality.</I>

I am sorry, but there are little chances you will actually manage to help her with that attitude. So let me ask: what is your goal?
Is it to help her, or is it to get rid of the negative behavior and have your peace back? (note that I am not saying that wanting peace is bad! I am simply suggesting both goals might bring you in opposite directions).

In this response, I am assuming your goal is to help her.
If it is the case, then please consider that you need to revise how you are seeing her and open your mind to see things her way. She needs help, because she is failing her start in the adult world.
And I hate to break it to you, but that's part of her parent's responsibilities. It's a job that the parents must do, during many many years, in order to prepare her for her adult life; if she is failing now, then whose fault is that? It can't be put on the child's back only.

18 is not a magic number... it's an completely arbitrary number set up by society for legal purposes. But a child doesn't suddenly becomes an adult because they turn 18. Their brain develops, or does not develop, depending on what you and the caregivers around her provided and the experience she acquired, according to a schedule that really has nothing to do with what a legal paper says.

She was in school and simply didn't go, she lied about it and when the semester grades came and mom found out she wasted thousands of dollars for nothing, her response was just "some people aren't cut out for school mom", yet she couldn't have announced/decided that BEFORE wasting the $$.

So why are you only finding out now?
Are you involved in her studies?
Why aren't you or her mom aware of her distress regarding school? Why aren't you involved in her career choices?
What does she feel the needs to lie?

Do you see how the responsibility cannot only fall on her shoulders?

Who do I talk to to get free rent and food while I decide what I want to do, I am not happy with my present career so I think I deserve a "break" to reconsider my career. /SNARK

Sarcasm isn't helping her. It shows how deeply emotional you seem to be about this. It tells me you think this is unfair.
But consider this.
You are a full fledged adult, with a fully developed brain, able to take decisions, you know what you want in life, you have experience and you have trust in your abilities. Plus, you most likely have a revenue. You are autonomous. She is not.
So you are the lucky one here, not her.
She is having free rent and food because she has not developed enough to be at the point where she is autonomous, like you.

As far as therapy and counseling goes, I am all for that type of thing as a KID, but how much of that is realistic for a young ADULT, and with no insurance, who PAYS for it?

The thing is, if she reached 21 years old and is still not autonomous, it's because her parents didn't prepare her properly for this. Throwing her in the sea to learn to swim won't cut it now: learning is something you develop over years. It's a <I>process.</I>
So don't blame her if she needs counseling.

Frankly I don't CARE if she "feels alienated"

And yet you expect her to care about how you feel? Care has to be reciprocal, or it isn't happening. A lot of the problem comes from there, IMO.

if that's true it's due to her own choices, I don't think someone over 18 that has decided to start smoking and getting drunk on a regular basis, and is dating a 34yr old MAN, deserves to be coddled and made to feel "everything is ok, we love you honey".

What does this has to do with her bf age? If anything, it only proves that she is not very mature, which is <I>precisely</I> why she cannot make her own choices without help at this point.
As I said, 18 is not a magic number. Where were her parents, when she was 16? 14? 12? Was she given responsibilities, was she allowed to make choices and make mistakes, so she could learn at that time?

She is choosing how she wants to live her life and she needs to live with the results of those choices just like I did.

What if she is not choosing anything because she does not yet have developed the proper skillsets?

I was kicked out at 18 and told to sink or swim

Maybe your judgment comes from there, OP.
No offense, but the pain you lived in your past does not justify doing the same to her. Doing it to her does not validate why you had to go through this either, in your youth.

this new idea so many parents I run into of parenting and "being friends" into their 20's seems insane to me.

It's not about being friend.
It's about creating a tight and solid relationship of attachment.
It's about coaching. It's about growing up together.

This is an ADULT, she chose to waste the teen years where you GET to mess around and flounder while you figure things out

She chose to waste these years? Who LET her waste these years?

<U>Motivation</U>

This is how motivation works, Superdad454.
It requires 2 things:
1) Self efficacy, Feeling confidant about your own abilities
2) Attachment and a secure relationship, feeling empowered and backed-up through trust and care

Have you provided this to her?

 

[Sallyskidshop]

SuperDad you are so fortunate to have all this wonderful advice. I wish I had that when my daughter at the age of 16 went off the rails &amp; was never able to climb back on them again &amp; now I have 8 grandchildren ranging from the age of 19 down to 7, the youngest my husband and I are raising. Has there been any great change in her behaviour since puberty? Do you think she may be on drugs? Is she drinking excessively? If you answer yes to any of these questions, get her help now before its too late. Please visit my website http://www.raisinggrandchildren.net.nz you will find loads of info on drugs etc &amp; maybe helpful to you. There is an email form on the site if you would like to get in touch with me. Good luck.

 

[Superdad454]

Thanks for all the responses.

I know ALL about drugs and alcohol and all that, you could easily say that I had a miss spent youth but I managed to pull my self together and become a contributing member of society. This has allowed me to see many signs of what she is doing.
Mom is very naive and overly trusting so when there are holes in stories I see them and so far I have been correct 9/10 times.

I totally get all the need for support and such but frankly I don't feel that has to go on forever and we both fully support her GOOD decisions, when she does well, so why do we need to get creative and find ways to encourage her and support her when she is being a absolute dipshit?

Can honestly say she is not a "Bad" girl, she is not abusing or evil or doing some of the horrible things I read about on here, she just seems to be SO DUMB, and make massively poor decisions, consistently.

Her tact is that any time we catch her lying or find out she did something wrong, like trying to get fake ID by going to the DMV and saying she was her older sister and had lost her ID, but wasn't SMART ENOUGH to realize that the new ID would come to the locking mailbox that only Mom has a key to..
When caught she swings around to the big guilt thing. "Here we go again, lets talk about 'Bad ***', lets talk about all the BAD things I do, I am such a horrible daughter, why don't you just kick me out since you can't stand me being here, its always about how BAD **** is!" and basically attempts to make Mom feel guilty for even attempting to punish her. She simply refuses to suck it up and say "Hey, I ****ed up, I am caught, I will accept my punishment, I was stupid and won't do it again" she is instead mad at us for catching her!

She lies about her grades (an other things) because she doesn't want to deal with the confrontation with her mom asking her WTF she was thinking by just not DOING anything. I remember back and she would choose to sit on the recliner and watch Jersey Shore, rather than do her homework. I feel that a COLLEGE student should be responsible for themselves, this isn't 8th grade where mommy and daddy need to be calling teachers and making sure "sally" is turning in her work. A 19yr old young woman should be able to manage her own studies or she doesn't deserve to have someone ELSE pay for them.

She has been very spoiled and sheltered, went to a private school and never really been exposed to how crappy the real world is and how little it cares that you "made a mistake" or "didn't know how it worked". On top of that she is SUPER dramatic and causes a TON of upheaval and turmoil on a regular basis every time her life is "in crisis".

She is just maddeningly naive and short sighted and doesn't GET so much.
Example: She wants a new puppy, we say she shouldn't get a new puppy because they already have 5 dogs (ugh) and she will be moving out soon (in the next year or so). She doesn't understand why those things are interconnected. I explain (having recently had to shop for an apt myself) how hard it is to find someplace to rent with a dog, plus having to pay huge security deposits, and then who watches your poor dog while you are at work and we would NOT let her leave it with us when she moved out! None of those things absorbed, it was turned into how we just didn't want to LET her have the dog.

We simply cannot give her the time, counseling (no insurance and if she won't take herself do we have to drag a 19yr old woman to a counselor?!?), oversight, guidance that some responders have suggested, we both work 40+ hours a week, Mom is a caregiver for TWO sick grandparents on eves and weekends, and D19 isn't even around very much to GIVE any input or feedback too. We just want her to get her shit together so she will not crash and burn when she is on her own.

I don't know that there IS a solution, I guess I am just venting now.

 

[Sallyskidshop]

I'm sorry to say that if 19 year is getting fake ID's now she's in for a lot of trouble. She may not be a bad kid, but she doesn't seem to know the difference between right &amp; wrong &amp; it's time she learned that her deeds do have consquences. Don't put up with her language, think she's in control, not you or her mum. Sounds as though she's on the path to self destruction and that she also has a very low self esteem. You absolutely need to take control of the situation before something dreadful happens. Stand up to her, your her dad. Sallyskidshop

 

[teetee6990]

Hi Superdad,
I've been told to post this quickly, so I'll be brief. I have had almost the exact same experience with my 19 year old daughter - it isn't pleasant. Young women have a very difficult time finding their identity - it is complicated because the feminine has been "diluted" over the last few thousand years. Much of a young woman's understanding of who she is, is based on losing her power, rather than connecting with it. I finally had to give me daughter an ultimatum. She stayed at home and while she was there, I got hold of a book called "The Power in Softness - A Guide to Personal Protection and Empowerment for Women", (author, I think, is Charly Flower). Anger is always about loss - and loss of power. My daughter actually read the book, (I didn't think she would), and she has turned a corner. Her wildness hasn't completely stopped, but a lot of her erratic behaviour has improved - hugely. I think that she is on the road to becoming a much more self-loving person.
TT

 

[M&B'sMom]

I am a bit late to this, but I completely understand what you are going through. I am in a similar situation with my 20 year old son. After I post my 5 replies (don't quite get that), I am planning to ask advise on how to deal with him, although lots that has been said here is helpful already.
Back on topic, I think you should not make threats that you are unwilling to keep. I understand your wanting to give her a "sink or swim" opportunity, but what do you do when she sinks? You will pick her up and bring her home, so what has been gained? I wish I had an answer, I probably wouldn't be here myself if I had one.
Good news is, she does have a job, even if she does blow it right away. My son barely even looks for one.
If nothing else, please know you are not alone in your struggles.

 

[lovemykids]

I think family counseling would be a good place to start....before kicking her out. Then, establish boundaries and let her know what the consequences of going beyond these boundaries will be. Anything putting the family at risk is a definite no-no. Whatever you decide, though.....stick to it. If she knows that you won't stick to your guns, then she will have no motivation to get a job, go to school, etc. If you pick a date, then stick to it. If you have to put her items in storage and take her to a homeless shelter....so be it. She'll get the message.