Nature vs nurture....

[bssage]

This is a debate older than me. Its specifically in response to a request from a thread discussing gay and lesbian.

My personal opinion goes something like this.

I believe that a persons sexuality is a combination of both. I think at some level that Kinsely scale is probably kinda accurate. But I also think it is theory. A well established and researched theory, still a theory. I think if your not at the extreme ends of the scale nurture can play a significant roll in the road you choose. And that if you are closer to the middle (of the scale) I would say it can be a choice. While I believe that your foundation of wants will likely remain the same. The compromises to those foundations can adjusted depending on your environment. I.E. available partners, peer approvial, ect.

I believe that even while the research done may show support for one theory or another. That at this point they are still theories.

I believe that I will love my kids regardless. And that this particular issue would not warrant much consideration from me in that regard.

 

[mom2many]

I believe that both go hand in hand. That there are parts of us that were created in our genes, but who we are and what we do can be influenced by those who are important in our lives.

 

[cybele]

I think nature is the initial factor, but nurture determines how it develops. In terms to the gay debate, I believe my daughter was born gay, I dont think it was something she was raised to be (because by that logic, all my kids would be gay, heck, theyre still young, so who knows, but somehow I cant see that being the case with Azriel, Sunny or Lux)

That said, whether she would be an openly gay 17yr old in a long term relationship volunteering at a shelter for homeless gay teens if her upbringing was different, and she were taught to be ashamed of it, I doubt.

In a general nature vs nurture upbringing, I think nurture plays a bigger role than nature, I believe that many traits you are born with, otherwise it could easily be assumed that all siblings would be the same. However, nurture plays a bigger role in developing those traits and developing one's personality, and of course, nurture isnt just one's family, but rather the overall environment they grow up in.

 

[Testing]

I believe that a persons sexuality is a combination of both. I think at some level that Kinsely scale is probably kinda accurate. But I also think it is theory. A well established and researched theory, still a theory. I think if your not at the extreme ends of the scale nurture can play a significant roll in the road you choose. And that if you are closer to the middle (of the scale) I would say it can be a choice. While I believe that your foundation of wants will likely remain the same. The compromises to those foundations can adjusted depending on your environment. I.E. available partners, peer approvial, ect.

I believe that both go hand in hand. That there are parts of us that were created in our genes, but who we are and what we do can be influenced by those who are important in our lives.

I would agree with the foregoing, totally. We are not automatons, programmed by our genes (don't I wish - I'd preprogram my kids and myself too! And definitely all those hideous drivers on the road). We make choices on how and where we want to go in life.

 

[cybele]

Wouldnt mind pre-programming myself to someone who enjoys cleaning. That would be so incredibly useful.

 

[parentastic]

I think if your not at the extreme ends of the [Kinsely] scale nurture can play a significant roll in the road you choose. And that if you are closer to the middle (of the scale) I would say it can be a choice.

I am a bit confused by this, bssage. Here is why:
In the Kinsely scale, the middle of the scale is when you are Bisexual.
The extreme is when you are heterosexual or homosexual.
SO if you are close to the middle of the scale, isn't it that it can be a choice precisely because both the orientations are part of how you were born? At least this is how I understand it.

As far as sexual orientation goes, this is what I think:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Human being are born with a sexual preference that falls somewhere in a spectrum from fully heterosexual to fully homosexual, with bisexual in the middle and several degrees in between (the Kinsley Scale)</LI>
  <LI>
• That preference can sometime be clear to one self from a very young age, or may not be clear at all, for many reasons: development speed of ones own sexuality, proximity of other people with various preferences around you, pressure and marginalization from society, harassment from peers, religious beliefs, etc.</LI>
  <LI>
• If you are on one of the two extreme of the Kinsley Scale, no amount of pressure, nurture, no matter how young, can change your preference. This explains why homosexuals are being marginalized, scorned, harassed, imprisoned, battered, tortured and killed all around the world, and yet, they continue to keep their preference, hide as much as they can, and follow their inclination secretly - if it was simple to change, the vast majority would do so rather than live the hell they are put through</LI>
  <LI>
• If you are closer to the middle, you may not even realize you are close to the middle, and given outside environmental consonances, you may seem to "change" by exploring, or not exploring what truly becomes choices for you. Thus, some people may indeed be influenced by nurture and their preference may indeed become a choice.</LI>

</LIST>
Another question:
Is the thread about nature vs nurture, specifically regarding sexual orientation, or more at large? I think depending on the specific topic, the debate can be very different. There are fascinating stuff about the power of nurture out there, especially in new areas such as epigenetics (the ability for human being to change their own DNA through experience and pass it down the next generation) and neuro-plasticity.

 

[bssage]

pstc

I think if your <U>not</U> at the extreme ends of the scale nurture can play a significant roll in the road you choose. And that if you are closer to the middle (of the scale) I would say it can be a choice. While I believe that your foundation of wants will likely remain the same. The compromises to those foundations can adjusted depending on your environment. I.E. available partners, peer approval, ect.

Believe it or not. I think we are both saying the same thing. My second sentence just kinda a rewording of the first. Which appears to be very similar to what you wrote.

The thread is an off shoot to the last "how to explain gay". And I did not really have a problem with that thread. I only wanted the title to match the content a little better. So that more posters who felt compelled to comment would.

 

[Incogneato]

I don't believe that sexual preference is set in stone at birth. I think it is something that is influenced by the way you're brought up, experiences you have, and how you interpret situations and conditions, and how you are raised.

I think of discovering your sexual preference like you discovering what your favorite color is as a child. When you are growing up, say your parents bought you a red fire truck as a toy and that was your favorite toy...which led you to have your favorite color of red. That doesn't mean that your favorite color will always be red, but it might be...everyone has different experiences and different feelings which are changed as they grow by things that go on around them and how the interpret and internalize feelings.

 

[bssage]

I don't believe that sexual preference is set in stone at birth.

I agree with this. Kinda

I dont think much is "set in stone" The word that gives me pause to think is "preference" At first I was thinking that yeah your preference is probably locked in. But then I thought inwardly. And while my preference for male vs female has not changed. Much of my sexual preferences have. Much of my overall preferences for my "wants" have changed over the years.

I think to buy into my "theory" you would have to acknowledge the difference between "<U>needs</U>" and "<U>wants</U>". I am sure it could be argued that sex is a need. I don't believe it is. IMHO sex is needed to create life. It is not necessary to sustain it. Sex is "wanted" to enhance it. I further believe the only things truly "set in stone" for the human experience is our needs.

I wont argue that some preferences are very strong. So strong that they are not likely to change ever. But even where my strongest preferences are. I can foresee situations where they can and would be compromised.

Does that mean they (preferences) have changed. Not always but sometimes. Even the Kinsley scale acknowledges that your place on the scale is a moving target. That at different points in your life you may be assigned a different place on the scale.

 

[ElliottCarasDad]

I would agree with the foregoing, totally. We are not automatons, programmed by our genes (don't I wish - I'd preprogram my kids and myself too! And definitely all those hideous drivers on the road). We make choices on how and where we want to go in life.

I disagree somewhat. I believe we are "pre-programmed" to a certain extent. You can hang around a bunch of little kids and you can tell there are certain ones more "intelligent" than others. I also dont think homosexuality is learned. There are effeminate qualities in all children that I have seen. My son certainly expresses some and if he grows up to be homosexual, so be it.

 

[Testing]

I disagree somewhat. I believe we are "pre-programmed" to a certain extent. You can hang around a bunch of little kids and you can tell there are certain ones more "intelligent" than others. I also dont think homosexuality is learned. There are effeminate qualities in all children that I have seen. My son certainly expresses some and if he grows up to be homosexual, so be it.

Intelligence is not a behavior. It is an innate genetic characteristic, unlike sexual behavior, which can vary from virtually asexual to any sort of sexual deviancy, depending on exposure and choices.

You do have the intelligence you are born with, absent later damage of some kind.

 

[mom2many]

I don't believe that sexual preference is set in stone at birth. I think it is something that is influenced by the way you're brought up, experiences you have, and how you interpret situations and conditions, and how you are raised.

I think of discovering your sexual preference like you discovering what your favorite color is as a child. When you are growing up, say your parents bought you a red fire truck as a toy and that was your favorite toy...which led you to have your favorite color of red. That doesn't mean that your favorite color will always be red, but it might be...everyone has different experiences and different feelings which are changed as they grow by things that go on around them and how the interpret and internalize feelings.

I am going to leave this alone, I think it would be better for everyone if I did.

 

[parentastic]

Intelligence is not a behavior. It is an innate genetic characteristic, unlike sexual behavior, which can vary from virtually asexual to any sort of sexual deviancy, depending on exposure and choices.
You do have the intelligence you are born with, absent later damage of some kind.

Actually, I would challenge you on that, Testing.

Intelligence is related to how you train your brain. And the brain has plasticity, meaning it can grow and change. So at least in part, intelligence can be developed. There is even a link between IQ loss and spanking in some research, which would hint that the experience lived across your developmental years can affect your intelligence.
Another problem with this claim is that we don't know what "intelligence" is exactly? How do you measure it? According to Gardner, there are 9 different types of intelligence, and our IQ test only measure one of these...

 

[Testing]

parentastic: Intelligence is related to how you train your brain. And the brain has plasticity, meaning it can grow and change. So at least in part, intelligence can be developed. ..

To a VERY modest degree only. You cannot take a person of low intelligence, say 80 IQ, and increase his intelligence to that of a PhD student.

From here: A substantial body of research establishes that preschool education can improve the learning and development of young children. Multiple meta-analyses conducted over the past 25 years have found preschool education to produce an average immediate effect of about half (0.50) a standard deviation on cognitive development. This is the equivalent of 7 or 8 points on an IQ test, or a ascent from the 30th to the 50th percentile on test scores.

An older teen/adult can develop his innate abilities by doing puzzles, math problems, etc. An older adult can keep his abilities by doing the same, engaging his brain.

But you cannot increase intelligence vastly; you can only develop what you have to work with to its potential.

You know this.

And, ok...I'll bite, because I've noticed it in your postings. What the heck is a "family life educator"?

 

[bssage]

I gotta go with pstc on this. I speak more from experience than anything on this.

But really that is a topic that is way off topic. I understand it was just an example. Its just way to complicated so many ways to be measured, so many ways those test are in question, and just a heck of a lot of variables.

ECD You know Mike Tyson sounds kinda effeminate. Just saying not sure the two are related.

Ps dont tell mike I said that.

 

[parentastic]

To a VERY modest degree only. You cannot take a person of low intelligence, say 80 IQ, and increase his intelligence to that of a PhD student.

I could think of a few grad students whom I would not necessarily qualify as very brilliant, but okay I grand you that, most probably, it's something that is at least in part nature.

And to answer your question, it's a little bit like family counseling.
See here.

 

[Incogneato]

I am going to leave this alone, I think it would be better for everyone if I did.

I'm not sure what the point in making that comment was, but this is the debate section...so feel free to express your opinion. You don't have to agree with what I think just as I don't have to agree with you.

 

[mom2many]

I'm not sure what the point in making that comment was, but this is the debate section...so feel free to express your opinion. You don't have to agree with what I think just as I don't have to agree with you.

Let's just say I do have an opinion, but at the time I was in a very bad mood it was safer to not say anything. Later though when I am not as flustered...kids in bed for the day, Ill be back.

 

[bssage]

I dont know what the heck is going on. But each thread becomes an exercise in dissecting the analogies from the previous post.

I know some very smart people who couldn't pour pee pee out of a boot with the instructions on the heel.

What does that have to do with whether or not your born gay? IDK

 

[mom2many]

I dont know what the heck is going on. But each thread becomes an exercise in dissecting the analogies from the previous post.

I know some very smart people who couldn't pour pee pee out of a boot with the instructions on the heel.

What does that have to do with whether or not your born gay? IDK

I'm not getting it either. I mean, I get wanting to make a point or offer a different perspective but to literally pick every single sentence apart is a little OCD of you ask me.